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Emulation on MS Windows 3.1x ?

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Reply 340 of 345, by Jo22

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BigDave wrote on 2024-05-26, 20:29:
Sorry just jumping in based on the thread topic, rather than thread conversation, so excuse me if it's already been mentioned. M […]
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Sorry just jumping in based on the thread topic, rather than thread conversation, so excuse me if it's already been mentioned.
My first ever introduction to emulation was Microsoft Arcade for Windows 3.1, 1993/4? the follow ups Return & Revenge both Win 95.
I'm pretty sure it was emulated, rather than simulated, as it had some DIP switch settings. Most, but not all 90s emulators I remember, and had on my website back then were for DOS.
I own a C64 Web.it computer, but it's not a C64 at all, it's basically a low spec Win3.1 system, running a C64 emulator, I think it's CCS64. So weirdly, it's the only Win3.1 computer I've owned.

Hi, no worries! Thanks for tip! ^^ The game pack reminds a bit of Activision's Atari 2600 collection (Win31/95), by the way.
If we're lucky it might run on Windows 3.0 MME, even. Microsoft did support Windows 3.0 still very well in the early 90s.

The Web.it surely is, um, special. It runs an interesting version of Windows 3.1x, to say the least.
It's an rare IBM version of Windows, even. Very interesting!

A few of the emulators here might be able to run on the Web.it hardware, even, maybe.
On the other hand though, the Web.it might be a bit too previous to be playing around with in such a way.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 341 of 345, by BigDave

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Jo22 wrote on 2024-05-28, 03:18:
They did indeed, certainly the software bundle I got with my first Win95 PC, were all older DOS or Win 3.x titles, including Wo […]
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BigDave wrote on 2024-05-26, 20:29:
Sorry just jumping in based on the thread topic, rather than thread conversation, so excuse me if it's already been mentioned. M […]
Show full quote

Sorry just jumping in based on the thread topic, rather than thread conversation, so excuse me if it's already been mentioned.
My first ever introduction to emulation was Microsoft Arcade for Windows 3.1, 1993/4? the follow ups Return & Revenge both Win 95.
I'm pretty sure it was emulated, rather than simulated, as it had some DIP switch settings. Most, but not all 90s emulators I remember, and had on my website back then were for DOS.
I own a C64 Web.it computer, but it's not a C64 at all, it's basically a low spec Win3.1 system, running a C64 emulator, I think it's CCS64. So weirdly, it's the only Win3.1 computer I've owned.

Hi, no worries! Thanks for tip! ^^ The game pack reminds a bit of Activision's Atari 2600 collection (Win31/95), by the way.
If we're lucky it might run on Windows 3.0 MME, even. Microsoft did support Windows 3.0 still very well in the early 90s.

They did indeed, certainly the software bundle I got with my first Win95 PC, were all older DOS or Win 3.x titles, including Works, Money & Lotus Smartsuite apart from the OEM Win95 CD of course. I ended buying all the commercial PC, emulator titles by Microsoft, Atari, Digital Eclipse etc, mainly for added extras.

The Web.it surely is, um, special. It runs an interesting version of Windows 3.1x, to say the least. It's an rare IBM version of […]
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The Web.it surely is, um, special. It runs an interesting version of Windows 3.1x, to say the least.
It's an rare IBM version of Windows, even. Very interesting!

A few of the emulators here might be able to run on the Web.it hardware, even, maybe.
On the other hand though, the Web.it might be a bit too previous to be playing around with in such a way.

Special is one word for it, but never realised it has a rare version of Windows, I'll have to try it out again. Mine is all boxed complete with manuals & BT click, so pretty rare here in the UK. It has some built-in Lotus office applications too, like 1-2-3 , not sure of versions. It's pretty neat, and specs quite useable, IIRC it's a 486 'Elan' CPU, and 8 or 16mb Ram., even a modem, it's just the C64 emulation was rubbish. I did get some games to run it, including the old AMOAD emulator disks (Arcade Machine on a Disk). Some time ago I was part of the C64 tape preservation project, made a lot of contributions, and at the time agreed to sell it to the website owner in Norway, but lost contact, shame. I can't remember, but think I got if from a TV shopping channel, called ' SHOP!'

Reply 342 of 345, by Jo22

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BigDave wrote on 2024-05-28, 16:15:

Special is one word for it, but never realised it has a rare version of Windows, I'll have to try it out again. Mine is all boxed complete with manuals & BT click, so pretty rare here in the UK. It has some built-in Lotus office applications too, like 1-2-3 , not sure of versions. It's pretty neat, and specs quite useable, IIRC it's a 486 'Elan' CPU, and 8 or 16mb Ram., even a modem, it's just the C64 emulation was rubbish. I did get some games to run it, including the old AMOAD emulator disks (Arcade Machine on a Disk). Some time ago I was part of the C64 tape preservation project, made a lot of contributions, and at the time agreed to sell it to the website owner in Norway, but lost contact, shame. I can't remember, but think I got if from a TV shopping channel, called ' SHOP!'

Hi, I can be wrong but I vaguely remember that some individuals tried to translate a localized Web.it version of Windows back to English.
It was on another forum, the title of the thread was "EmbOS Translation" or similar.

EmbOS probably means Embedded OS. It's essentially a bundle of IBM Windows with IBM PC-DOS and a custom shell that replaces Program-Manager (progman.exe is still there, I think).
While the underlying software can be found separately somewhere, it's simply an unusual combination.
Personally, I haven't heard of IBM Windows since the days of OS/2 and Win-OS/2 (modified Windows 3.1 that runs in an OS/2 VDM).

The C64 emulation that the Web.it ships with is from ca. the mid-90s, so it's understandably not quite as complete as VICE.
It's still not a bad version of an emulator, maybe. Not for it's time, I mean.

I remember seeing that emulator being sold (or being bundled with other software) in the mid-90s in a catalogue of a company called "Pearl Agency".
Pearl had sold all sorts of computer stuff and electronic gadgets. Also PC games and software for various purposes (big boxes, too).
They had a small emulation software area in the catalogue, as well. CCS64 or Personal C64 were being advertised in the 90s, I believe.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 343 of 345, by BigDave

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Jo22 wrote on 2024-05-28, 16:48:
Hi, I can be wrong but I vaguely remember that some individuals tried to translate a localized Web.it version of Windows back to […]
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BigDave wrote on 2024-05-28, 16:15:

Special is one word for it, but never realised it has a rare version of Windows, I'll have to try it out again. Mine is all boxed complete with manuals & BT click, so pretty rare here in the UK. It has some built-in Lotus office applications too, like 1-2-3 , not sure of versions. It's pretty neat, and specs quite useable, IIRC it's a 486 'Elan' CPU, and 8 or 16mb Ram., even a modem, it's just the C64 emulation was rubbish. I did get some games to run it, including the old AMOAD emulator disks (Arcade Machine on a Disk). Some time ago I was part of the C64 tape preservation project, made a lot of contributions, and at the time agreed to sell it to the website owner in Norway, but lost contact, shame. I can't remember, but think I got if from a TV shopping channel, called ' SHOP!'

Hi, I can be wrong but I vaguely remember that some individuals tried to translate a localized Web.it version of Windows back to English.
It was on another forum, the title of the thread was "EmbOS Translation" or similar.

EmbOS probably means Embedded OS. It's essentially a bundle of IBM Windows with IBM PC-DOS and a custom shell that replaces Program-Manager (progman.exe is still there, I think).
While the underlying software can be found separately somewhere, it's simply an unusual combination.
Personally, I haven't heard of IBM Windows since the days of OS/2 and Win-OS/2 (modified Windows 3.1 that runs in an OS/2 VDM).

The C64 emulation that the Web.it ships with is from ca. the mid-90s, so it's understandably not quite as complete as VICE.
It's still not a bad version of an emulator, maybe. Not for it's time, I mean.

I remember seeing that emulator being sold (or being bundled with other software) in the mid-90s in a catalogue of a company called "Pearl Agency".
Pearl had sold all sorts of computer stuff and electronic gadgets. Also PC games and software for various purposes (big boxes, too).
They had a small emulation software area in the catalogue, as well. CCS64 or Personal C64 were being advertised in the 90s, I believe.

I checked out the EmbOS translation project you mentioned, what amazing work. Seeing the images makes me want to get the Web.it unpacked and setup again to try it out, especially as like a C64, it can hook up to a TV. Doesn't sound a big deal nowadays, but when it came out, TV's were mostly CRT, and didn't have VGA.

I never realised at the time, but the way the desktop was divided up into menus with large icons, is a style that was copied or utilised for the Linux Xandros OS (see pic) that was used on some of the Netbooks that were popular for a time around 2010 or so.

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The EmbOS project is great, but since I have an English Web.it, but it's an embedded system, do you have any idea how I'd possibly go about trying to extract the OS & applications so I could contribute to the project, or recreate in a virtual system? It sounds as if it's pretty unique IBM OS. I suppose this was used to lessen or avoid MS licensing fees?

Interesting story about the CCS64 emulator being sold, yes I remember it being sort of shareware, and when I say rubbish (sorry, that was pretty insulting) but only meant in retrospect compared to the almost perfect C64 emulation we have now on almost any deVICE. For it's time, CCS64 was quite advanced in it's hardware support, just disappointing game compatibility (maybe just unlucky in which games I tested, and all .d64, I don't think it supported the clean .tap files I was creating for the now defunct C64tapes.org project) but was considered one of the best at the time.

Reply 344 of 345, by Jo22

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BigDave wrote on 2024-05-29, 06:25:

The EmbOS project is great, but since I have an English Web.it, but it's an embedded system, do you have any idea how
I'd possibly go about trying to extract the OS & applications so I could contribute to the project, or recreate in a virtual system?

Hi there, I'm sorry for the delay. I'm just here to give a quick answer to this one.
I suppose that if the OS is inside one of those DiskOnChip modules (DoC), it's best to boot the Web.It and use a DOS program on 3,5" floppy disk and just copy the files.

A null-mode cable can be used for file-transfer, for example. File Maven v3 or Norton Commander 5 have a link functionality, I believe.
It's just a general advice, though. I don't know so much about an actual Web.it, since I don't have one. 😅

Another idea is to use a Compact Flash adapter and a Compact Flash card.
The Web.it seems to have a PC Card or PCMCIA slot, after all.
Not sure about the card services, though. If they're installed on the Web.it, I mean.

But really, other users might have better experience here. Using a sector-based backup program would be cool, of course.
Though I'm not sure if the DiskOnChip module supports low-level access beyond BIOS access (int13h).
So backup programs may or may not work.

Anyway, IBM PC-DOS 7 itself is well known and available, so re-creating a boot sector is no problem.
So a normal, file-based backup will be fine, as well.

BigDave wrote on 2024-05-29, 06:25:

It sounds as if it's pretty unique IBM OS. I suppose this was used to lessen or avoid MS licensing fees?

Hi, yes, that might be possible. I vaguely remember IBM had access to Windows 3.x source code through a license agreement with MS.
It's a bit like that Philips/Nintendo deal of the 90s, I guess, when Philips had the rights to use video game characters.
But seeing a stand-alone version of IBM Windows 3.1 is something I hadn't expected back in the day.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 345 of 345, by BigDave

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Jo22 wrote on 2024-05-31, 06:50:
Hi there, I'm sorry for the delay. I'm just here to give a quick answer to this one. I suppose that if the OS is inside one of t […]
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BigDave wrote on 2024-05-29, 06:25:

The EmbOS project is great, but since I have an English Web.it, but it's an embedded system, do you have any idea how
I'd possibly go about trying to extract the OS & applications so I could contribute to the project, or recreate in a virtual system?

Hi there, I'm sorry for the delay. I'm just here to give a quick answer to this one.
I suppose that if the OS is inside one of those DiskOnChip modules (DoC), it's best to boot the Web.It and use a DOS program on 3,5" floppy disk and just copy the files.

A null-mode cable can be used for file-transfer, for example. File Maven v3 or Norton Commander 5 have a link functionality, I believe.
It's just a general advice, though. I don't know so much about an actual Web.it, since I don't have one. 😅

Another idea is to use a Compact Flash adapter and a Compact Flash card.
The Web.it seems to have a PC Card or PCMCIA slot, after all.
Not sure about the card services, though. If they're installed on the Web.it, I mean.

But really, other users might have better experience here. Using a sector-based backup program would be cool, of course.
Though I'm not sure if the DiskOnChip module supports low-level access beyond BIOS access (int13h).
So backup programs may or may not work.

Anyway, IBM PC-DOS 7 itself is well known and available, so re-creating a boot sector is no problem.
So a normal, file-based backup will be fine, as well.

BigDave wrote on 2024-05-29, 06:25:

It sounds as if it's pretty unique IBM OS. I suppose this was used to lessen or avoid MS licensing fees?

Hi, yes, that might be possible. I vaguely remember IBM had access to Windows 3.x source code through a license agreement with MS.
It's a bit like that Philips/Nintendo deal of the 90s, I guess, when Philips had the rights to use video game characters.
But seeing a stand-alone version of IBM Windows 3.1 is something I hadn't expected back in the day.

Thank you for all the information, that's very useful. I didn't think about using a CF card adapter, I'm sure I have one somewhere, so I'll give that a try. First job though, get it out my garage, and hope it still works 😉 I did pack it all back as new, and wrapped box in cling film to hopefully prevent damp & box damage issues.