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Cannot enable EMS under Win2K...

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Reply 81 of 117, by NStriker

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Sorry. I've been off frolicking. Okay, maybe not. Basically, since no one had come up with any new ideas for a while, I let the problem go for a time.

And now Stiletto is gone, but I'll answer him, anyway. I could contact Abit, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't tell me anything useful. I've looked on their more technical site, fae.abit.com.tw, for anything and found nothing, so I doubt the Abit support personell would give me anything more insightful.

And, say, DosFreak... How about you try MSD.EXE and compare memory with me, too. Is your E000-EFFF range not getting used, like mine? Do you have an unusally large set of ROMs taking up UMBs?

Did you try loading EMS with that pageframe?

I assume you're talking about the EMM386 line to force the pageframe to E000, Snover. Yeah, I tried it in pure DOS, and it works. But, as I'm sure you know, that won't help Win2K.

Reply 82 of 117, by DosFreak

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Fixed my EMS!

Was looking through MSD and saw that Address D800 was being used by my HPT 372A.
So I disabled the HPT372A and EMS still did not work....

I then disabled my on-board USB + HPT372A and it worked!

These are the addresses that EMS was using:

Page Frame: D000H

DC00-DFFF
D800-DBFF
D400-D7FF
D000-D3FF

I then enabled RAID but disabled USB and noticed that RAID ate up this address range:
D800-DBFF

I then DISABLED RAID and ENABLED USB:
I was unable to determine the address range as easily...still to be determined.
Most likely D400-D7FF and D000-D3FF

After verifying all of this in DOS I then booted into NT and EMS worked in NT too! YAY!

Here are the BEFORE & AFTER pics taken using MSD under Windows XP NTVDM:

As you can see....

DC00-DFFF on BEFORE is being used by some UMB's. Only 4 spaces are available
but on AFTER the whole range is free.

D800-DBFF on BEFORE is taken up by ROM's. That's the HPT372A
D800-DBFF on AFTER is used and free....

D400-D7FF on BEFORE is RAM
D400-D7FF on AFTER is used UMB

D000-D3FF on BEFORE is RAM
D000-D3FF on AFTER is used and free

Weird, weird weird.

I KNOW for a fact that D800-DBFF is used by my HPT372A because MSD say's so in both DOS and WINDOWS in the memory browser. (Use Utilities and click on the Memory Browser). It actually say's HPT372A! When I disable it & USB, EMS pops back up! But when you go into NT it shows it as "RAM" instead of being "Used"...Does "RAM" mean "used" memory? Must be.....

Well that's the solution in my case. Could be any number of different hardware in other cases but most likely not too many. Going to email ABIT this week and see what's up because my KR7A worked with EMS USB/HPT enabled. I'm betting they knew what they were doing when they assigned those memory ranges tho. EMS isn't needed anymore so why worry about compatibility with ancient DOS games? Unfortunately there isn't a suitable program to take over the task of emulating EMS + whatever else a specific DOS program needs. Connectix Virtual PC is the closest but it's sound support absolutely SUCKS!

I'm definetly lookin' forward to 386+ support in DosBox! 😉

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Reply 84 of 117, by Snover

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Haven't you tried Bochs? It's looking pretty good. Has a looot of stuff implemented. It can run Windows 95! Can Connectix VirtualPC run Windows 95? I doubt it. 😉

Anyway, what the heck IS HPT372A? Your RAID controller? Maybe you should scrap the Abit and get an MSI. I swear by these things. They r0x0r.

Yes, it’s my fault.

Reply 87 of 117, by NStriker

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Yeah, HPT372A is his RAID controller. Mine's the HPT374. Very similar, but mine has 2 extra channels.

VirutalPC can run Windows 95. I currently have it running Win98SE. Runs great, too. It can run WinXP and 2000, as well. And it's quite speedy. I'm thoroughly impressed with it. If it had General Midi support and better joystick support, it'd be perfect for DOS games.

Very interesting, DosFreak. Aren't those ROMs obnoxious? Sheesh. About the area labeled "RAM"... I think I know what that is. It's BIOS support to allow USB keyboards to work in DOS. That's why it goes away when you disable USB or just disable BIOS support for USB keyboards (if you have the option). That's what mine does, anyway.

Unfortunately, I don't have the option of running my OS with USB and RAID disabled, because the Abit IT7 is a pure USB motherboard (no PS/2 ports), so my keyboard and mouse are USB. Also, my OS is installed on my RAID array.

The real question is: What's using that area above DFFF? The E000 to EFFF area? That's a perfect spot for the page frame, and that's where most peoples' page frames are. Why are ours not there? What's using that space?

Reply 88 of 117, by NStriker

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Originally posted by DosFreak I've been eyeing this piece of hardware for awhile now: http://www.3ware.com/products/serial_ata […]
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Originally posted by DosFreak
I've been eyeing this piece of hardware for awhile now:

http://www.3ware.com/products/serial_ata.asp

gorgeous

🤤


Sweeeeeet. Now, if serial drives were actually available, that would actually make it useful. 😉

Originally posted by Snover
I want an ATA/100 RAID controller with RAID-5 ability.


Promise makes one. So does Adaptec, I think. RAID 5 is cool because it's faster than RAID 1 but actually cheaper in the cost of hard drives while offering excellent data protection. And while it's not quite as fast as RAID 0, it's still speedier than no RAID. Unfortunately, those darn RAID 5 cards tend to cost over $300. Otherwise, I'd be all over that stuff! 😁

Reply 89 of 117, by Snover

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NStriker wrote:

Unfortunately, I don't have the option of running my OS with USB and RAID disabled, because the Abit IT7 is a pure USB motherboard (no PS/2 ports), so my keyboard and mouse are USB. Also, my OS is installed on my RAID array.

NO PS/2!? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *repeat for 50 pages*
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

err..sorry.. 😉

NStriker wrote:

Promise makes one. So does Adaptec, I think. RAID 5 is cool because it's faster than RAID 1 but actually cheaper in the cost of hard drives while offering excellent data protection. And while it's not quite as fast as RAID 0, it's still speedier than no RAID. Unfortunately, those darn RAID 5 cards tend to cost over 0. Otherwise, I'd be all over that stuff! 😁

I didn't find any when I went hunting for RAID cards in December of last year... don't suppose you've got a link..?

Yes, it’s my fault.

Reply 90 of 117, by NStriker

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Well, ya know, over the next few generations of motherboards the industry as a whole will be phasing out PS/2 ports as well as parallel and serial ports, in the same way the got rid of ISA a few years back. It's already been decided by motherboard manufacturers, Abit was just the first to release a motherboard like that (and caught a bit of flak for it, admittedly). So, I'd be careful if you buy a new keyboard or mouse in the future to make sure it at least has USB support.

Here are the newest Promise ATA RAID 5 controllers:
FastTrak SX4000
FastTrak SX6000
Adaptec card: 2400A

These are just the current adapters. Promise used to make one they called the SuperTrak, and that was RAID 5, and Adaptec had an older one called AAA-UDMA. So, there ya go. A fun way to drop a bum-load of cash.

Reply 91 of 117, by Nicht Sehr Gut

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NStriker wrote:

Well, ya know, over the next few generations of motherboards the industry as a whole will be phasing out PS/2 ports as well as parallel and serial ports, in the same way the got rid of ISA a few years back.

That's bad policy. PS2 will go away on it's own. Lack of consumer desire is why they should remove it (and people still count on having PS2 connectors).

Until I can consistently plug in a USB keyboard and/or a mouse and a have it work without a bunch of rigamarole, the PS2 connector needs to be there.

Reply 92 of 117, by NStriker

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Nicht Sehr Gut wrote:

That's bad policy. PS2 will go away on it's own. Lack of consumer desire is why they should remove it (and people still count on having PS2 connectors).

Well, it's a mixed thing, really. They need to move on with more recent technologies, and PS/2 and all the other legacy adapters are taking up a lot of space on the backplate of the board as well as space for traces that could be used elsewhere. Now, as long as USB controllers work in DOS (and they do with BIOS support and a proper mouse driver) I have no problems with that. It's still backward compatible as far as operation of software is concerned, it's simply a different, more modern, and more flexible connection.

And, I mean, let's think about it... Waiting for PS/2 to phase itself out isn't really viable, because it won't happen by itself. The peripheral manufacturers aren't going to move to a new technology if they don't have to. It's cheaper to stick with the old lines, in the short term. It's not like a keyboard needs the extra bandwidth provided by USB, nor does it gain much from the hot-swappability of USB, so there's little point. But then we end up having a legacy connector for keyboards and mice that take up twice the space of a modern connection port, and we continue to have to keep support for that older hardware in the chipsets. And why? All so you don't have to buy a new keyboard with your new computer? I dunno, it just kind of feels silly to me, but then again, I'm the guy who bought a keyboard and mouse 4 years ago and made sure they had USB support for later.
Just my thoughts on it, is all. No disrespect intended here, of course.

Nicht Sehr Gut wrote:

Until I can consistently plug in a USB keyboard and/or a mouse and a have it work without a bunch of rigamarole, the PS2 connector needs to be there.

Have you had that problem? Hmm... It's never been an issue for me, honestly. Not since Windows 98, at least, when they included generic support for USB HIDs. I suppose it probably didn't always work perfectly on every mouse, so you needed to get the drivers from the manufacturer (which one should generally do, anyway). But, as of Win2K, at least, I've found it to be perfect with USB mice and keyboards. And it's certainly Microsoft's intent to continue that through with their newer OSes. Linux, I can't say. I haven't much experience with Linux and USB.

Reply 93 of 117, by Nicht Sehr Gut

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NStriker wrote:

Well, it's a mixed thing, really. They need to move on with more recent technologies, and PS/2 and all the other legacy adapters are taking up a lot of space on the backplate of the board as well as space for traces that could be used elsewhere.

My 2 PS2 connectors take up a trivial amount of space. Certainly less than that (for all intents and purposes) useless CNR "riser" slot.

Now, as long as USB controllers work in DOS (and they do with BIOS support and a proper mouse driver) I have no problems with that.

Bing! Bing! Bing! There's the problem. Until it's universally supported, it's not a good replacement. My ECS K7S5A motherboard was fine for this and I was quite pleased to see my USB mouse working in DOS. When I changed to the AS40GT board I'm using now...*poof* It's gone again. Oh sure, Win9x/NT will see it on the port and configure, etc... But that presumes, of course, that I'm using those OS's and that they are at full functionality. Quite often, they aren't. I switched back to the PS2 connector on my mouse because I got tired of losing my mouse whenever I used DOS or safe mode on the Win9x side.

Waiting for PS/2 to phase itself out isn't really viable, because it won't happen by itself.

Phbt! Sorry. Not buying that for a second. If that were so manufacturers would've shoved PCI down our throat and removed ISA long ago (It only recently left due to lack of interest on the consumer's part...).

But then we end up having a legacy connector for keyboards and mice that take up twice the space of a modern connection port, and we continue to have to keep support for that older hardware in the chipsets.

Buzz. You don't have to get a board with it. Obviously you didn't.

And why?

Because I have neither the need, nor desire for a board without PS2 connectors. I don't need any more reason than that.

All so you don't have to buy a new keyboard with your new computer?

Where can I get a USB keyboard for ? Don't think I've seen one for less than .

I'm the guy who bought a keyboard and mouse 4 years ago and made sure they had USB support for later.

I got a USB mouse with a PS2 connector so I'd be covered either way. I ended going from USB back to the PS2 connector. *shrug*

I've got no problem with progress, but it needs to be for a reason. When USB keyboards and mice are as universally compatible as the PS2 equivalents, that's when you'll see PS2 fade away. Right now, it's not like that. My AS40GT board has BIOS support for a USB keyboard and general USB support. Nothing for USB mice.

Reply 94 of 117, by NStriker

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Just so ya know, it really isn't that important to me, so I don't intend to start an argument or anything. But I'll reply... It's always good to see all sides of a thing.

Nicht Sehr Gut wrote:

My 2 PS2 connectors take up a trivial amount of space. Certainly less than that (for all intents and purposes) useless CNR "riser" slot.

Well, it may seem trival, but to a manufacturer, space is at a premium and it's a pain. You can fit 2 USB or Firewire ports in the space each PS/2 port takes, is what I'm saying. That creates massive external expandability. Of course, I don't personally own anything Firewire, and aside from my mouse and keyboard, the only USB thing I have is a joystick (Which, I admit, doesn't function in DOS. A shame.)

CNR is useless, as you say, and always really was. I really don't know why those ever got put on their, but I'm glad I don't see them much anymore, though they still exist.

Bing! Bing! Bing! There's the problem. Until it's universally supported, it's not a good replacement. My ECS K7S5A motherboard was fine for this and I was quite pleased to see my USB mouse working in DOS. When I changed to the AS40GT board I'm using now...*poof* It's gone again. Oh sure, Win9x/NT will see it on the port and configure, etc... But that presumes, of course, that I'm using those OS's and that they are at full functionality. Quite often, they aren't. I switched back to the PS2 connector on my mouse because I got tired of losing my mouse whenever I used DOS or safe mode on the Win9x side.


Well, now, that's the fault of your motherboard manufacturer. They really should have put that in the BIOS.

Phbt! Sorry. Not buying that for a second. If that were so manufacturers would've shoved PCI down our throat and removed ISA long ago (It only recently left due to lack of interest on the consumer's part...).


Ah. Don't you feel ISA was ripped away before consumer interest disolved? I do. The last chipset I ever saw ISA on was the VIA KT133A (and few board had it, usually deciding on more PCI slots instead) and the Intel 440BX (though correct me if I'm wrong). I certainly wasn't ready for it to go then, and I kept from upgrading my motherboard for years because of it, but I think ISA needed to fade away. The best modem I ever owned was ISA, and I know a few people who had expensive SCSI ISA cards. Heck, I'm still seeing ISA modems in stores, though I admit that that's about all I see ISA anymore.
So, yeah... Consumers drive changes in the market, but also the industry does it itself sometimes, too, because it wouldn't happen for a very long time, otherwise. I know a lot of people get mad when the industry does it, because they don't see the need (like when AGP first arrived), but once it's there and things start moving ahead due to the change, people aren't complaining anymore.

Buzz. You don't have to get a board with it. Obviously you didn't.

Because I have neither the need, nor desire for a board without PS2 connectors. I don't need any more reason than that.


Ya know, that "buzz" thing is kind of obnoxious to do in a friendly chat about hardware (which is what this is), and wouldn't be stood for in a debate (which this is not). It says, "You're wrong, and I have no intention of listening to your point of view." So, if you'd kindly refrain... Thank you.

Anyway, no, I don't have to buy one that has them. And I didn't mean to say you had to buy one that didn't have PS/2, though I would expect that in the next few years you won't have a choice.
But lack of legacy ports aside, I didn't buy my board for the lack of them, anyway. I'd have been perfectly happy if it had them. But I didn't need them, and I liked the other features of the board. It was hardly a selling point.

Where can I get a USB keyboard for ? Don't think I've seen one for less than .


A quick look on Pricewatch shows me several. Though with shipping it gets to be around . It was an estimate, so I wasn't dead on. Sorry.

I've got no problem with progress, but it needs to be for a reason. When USB keyboards and mice are as universally compatible as the PS2 equivalents, that's when you'll see PS2 fade away. Right now, it's not like that. My AS40GT board has BIOS support for a USB keyboard and general USB support. Nothing for USB mice.


Curious that they would leave that out. It's been on all boards I've ever built a computer on that had USB, from i440BX on up. That's a quirk with your motherboard, I guess.

Heh. Ya know, I've always been told by a friend of mine that in order to be a real computer science guy I need to program things just because I can, often in x86 assembly for kicks, and have a penchant for old technology and always complain when they try to update stuff. 😀 While I like old technology plenty, I'm afraid I also embrace change rather quickly if it seems like a good idea (though I'm not fond if Itanium; I think AMD is running the better route with Hammer, but that's a different story). Guess I'm not a true geek. 😁

Reply 95 of 117, by Nicht Sehr Gut

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NStriker wrote:

Well, it may seem trival, but to a manufacturer, space is at a premium and it's a pain. You can fit 2 USB or Firewire ports in the space each PS/2 port takes, is what I'm saying. ...CNR is useless, as you say, and always really was. I really don't know why those ever got put on there,...

CNR kind of proves my point. I'm sure someone out there thought it would really take off. So there was a push for this to be placed on motherboards using up that precious space you were referring to, while there was precious little desire or need for it. So the manufacturer gave up the space for a CNR slot (which has little-to-no market), yet he's supposed to give up PS2 connectors (which are still useful and very much still in use by a large portion of the consumer market). That just about sums up why I don't want someone in the industry trying to tell me what I want.

<regarding BIOS USB mouse support> Well, now, that's the fault of your motherboard manufacturer. They really should have put that in the BIOS.


Yes. All of them should. And they shouldn't even begin to think of removing the PS2 ports until that's 100% implemented.

Don't you feel ISA was ripped away before consumer interest disolved? I do.


Heh. So you're the guy buying those ISA cards! (kidding). No, most people weren't left out as far as ISA is concerned. Apparently, the few who really wanted to keep them were pretty vocal, though. You were just horribly out-numbered by the rest of us.

At least the performance jump between ISA and PCI was more than the difference between my standard DIMM RAM and my new DDR RAM (which gives me...what? 10-15% better performance? I'd rather have lots of the cheap stuff).

I can't remember the specifics, but the last board with ISA that I saw was almost a year ago. It certainly held on for a while...

The best modem I ever owned was ISA,...


Mine was an external. Loved that panel full of LED's: I could always tell what was going on even if my computer was completely confused.

still seeing ISA modems in stores,...


I almost bought one by accident about eight months ago. I was stunned. Only ISA hardware in the whole store. Later, I found later that Fry's Electronics still carries (carried?) a lot of ISA cards. Apparently these are for the computers I call "tanks" (you know super-heavy power supply, ISA-everything, giant-sized mechanical on-off switch, and a heavy-duty outer casing that could withstand a low-yield nuclear blast). Still in use for dedicated services I presume...

...people get mad when the industry does it, because they don't see the need (like when AGP first arrived),...

Other than taking up space, I can't/didn't see an argument against AGP. AGP (at least for now) acts as a supplement to PCI, but it doesn't obligate anyone to use it (IE:I just built a computer for my brother-in-law that uses the PCI for video)

I will however point out that pulling stupid stunts like Intel did with their motherboards is inexcusable.
Referring to the boards that were "4x AGP only" where you could plug in an incompatible AGP card and fry the card, the motherboard, or both. Everyone else in the industry grasped the concept of being better safe than sorry and implemented dual-voltage support. This too will go away as 2x AGP cards fade from view.

As you might be able to tell, I'm no fan of "accelerated obsolescence". If one thing's going to replace another,OK. But if the replacement doesn't at least match the original and it's pushed on me. I get hostile.

Ya know, that "buzz" thing is kind of obnoxious to do in a friendly chat about hardware (which is what this is),...


My point was your original statement:
But then we end up having a legacy connector for keyboards and mice that take up twice the space of a modern connection port, and we continue to have to keep support for that older hardware in the chipsets.
...seems to imply requirement of the continued placement of PS2 connectors on motherboards. Since you've already purchased a board without them that's not so. However looking back at it, I (think I) can see that at least part of what you were saying was that the chipset would need to offer support whether or not the board specifically had it, because the chipset would need to work on numerous/different motherboard configurations (some with PS2 connections, others, not).

Sorry you took it as obnoxious, but it seemed obnoxious to me when you said: "it just kind of feels silly to me, but then again, I'm the guy who bought a keyboard and mouse 4 years ago and made sure they had USB support for later." And yes, I saw your disclaimer. The implication is still there that we (as computer users) had an obligation to "prepare" for the removal of these ports.

...didn't mean to say you had to buy one that didn't have PS/2, though I would expect that in the next few years you won't have a choice.


Ok, that makes a big difference. By that time, USB support should be at least as common as PS2 is now; and (hopefully) just as universally compatible. In case you hadn't guessed, I've come across a few "bleeding-edge" guys who carried the attitude that anything that was more than a year old should be ignored, disregarded, disavowed, tossed on a scrap heap, etc... and support should be yanked for those things because it "slows them down" when everybody isn't constantly upgrading their machines. I'm glad to see you're not one of them. 😀 ISA, heh...

...I didn't buy my board for the lack of them, anyway. I'd have been perfectly happy if it had them. But I didn't need them, and I liked the other features of the board.


True. There's always a compromise. No "perfect" boards out there (at least, not for me)

It was an estimate, so I wasn't dead on. Sorry.

Heh. That's not a problem. I was just shocked such a thing might actually be readily available (now, as opposed to two years from now).
Much like when I found a decent optical mouse for only (Heh. PS2 only, of course).

Hopefully, I'll see that price actually arrive in stores soon. Actually, with my present "financial status". I should wait and get one with a "freebate", like all my other keyboards for the past five years.

Curious that they would leave that out. It's been on all boards I've ever built a computer on that had USB, from i440BX on up.


I found it odd, too. Especially since it seems (from personal observation) that USB mice are more common. However I've definitely seen it on other boards as well. Just hoping that this was last model to have the BIOS set up that way. It's no problem in a fully functional Windows environment, anything less and *poof*.

[B]...in order to be a [B]real computer science guy I need to program things just because I can, often in x86 assembly for kicks,...


Heh. You shouldn't reveal things like that. People will start coming to you and say "Hey, I've got this little project I'm working on and I was thinking...You know assembly, right?" Assembly. Woof. Programming language of Masochists everywhere... I don't know...maybe just for sub-routines or something. Haven't attempted anything like real programming since I flunked COBOL ages ago. Was traumatized by a single program that spit out a dozen pages of errors, none of which, gave any indication as to where or what was the actual problem. (Almost) all because I had accidently entered a space (20), where a null (00) should have been somewhere in the code. Ech... making me re-live the nightmare.

Guess I'm not a true geek.


Your posts indicate otherwise. Heh. Those who constantly upgrade are crazy. Throwing away their money. Of course, it all works out. Their constant upgrading cause the manufacturers to introduce new "stuff", dropping the prices on the not-cutting-edge "stuff", which, in turn, allows me to buy quality hardware that's good and cheap.

Reply 96 of 117, by Snover

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Most of the prices I see on Pricewatch are bullshit. And, oh yeah, the Itanium will TOTALLY fail on ANY hand-coded assembly (and probably a lot of it from Cpp compilers) because it doesn't have some converter/correcter dealie (I can't remember it and can't find a link on Google to find it, heh). This improves performance by, like, 2% or less. Idiots. *loathes in a pool of Intel hatrid*

Yes, it’s my fault.

Reply 97 of 117, by NStriker

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Nicht Sehr Gut wrote:

CNR kind of proves my point. I'm sure someone out there thought it would really take off. So there was a push for this to be placed on motherboards using up that precious space you were referring to, while there was precious little desire or need for it. So the manufacturer gave up the space for a CNR slot (which has little-to-no market)...

I guess it was supposed to be for cheap system builders, who could put LAN, modem, and whatever else on one cheapo riser card and have the CPU do all the hard work (like a controllerless modem does). But I don't know anyone who ever manufactured the cards. Ever since it was introduced I have seen exactly one CNR card (or was it an AMR card?), and even that was only a picture. What a waste.

...yet he's supposed to give up PS2 connectors (which are still useful and very much still in use by a large portion of the consumer market). That just about sums up why I don't want someone in the industry trying to tell me what I want.


Unfortunately, there are few of us around telling them what we want, and what we want doesn't always end up meeting the industry's roadmap, because they have to push the new tech. Sometimes, it's a real pain, but once it's past, we're fine. I'm betting that there were a lot of unhappy people out there when they came up with the ATX standard. "You mean to say my new motherboard won't fit in my old case? That I can't use my old power supply with my new system? That I have to use these little PS/2 connectors, so I need an adapter for my old DIN 5 keyboard? And I have to hold the power button down for 4 seconds to turn off the machine? *pffffffft*" 😉

Yes. All of them should. And they shouldn't even begin to think of removing the PS2 ports until that's 100% implemented.


I totally agree. If a board doesn't have PS/2, it sure as heck better have USB mouse and keyboard support in DOS. Otherwise, I wouldn't even be able to access my RAID card's BIOS! (I turned off BIOS USB keyboard support once, and it took me a while to figure out why my RAID card wasn't responding. CTRL-H... CTRL-H damn you! Heh. 😀)

No, most people weren't left out as far as ISA is concerned. Apparently, the few who really wanted to keep them were pretty vocal, though.


I think a lot of ruckus came from peripheral manufacturers. Especially modem people. They had to retool their entire line and come up with new designs. Heck, it took them forever to make a decent controller-based modem for PCI. I swear they were all controllerless for a while, there. And Creative is still the only company who makes a PCI sound card that works worth a damn in DOS (to my knowledge, and only because they bought Ensoniq who created the stuff to do it).
Peripheral manufacturers hate to phase out technology they've based their lines on, so sometimes it sticks around longer than it otherwise should. Let's see how quickly PCI 2.0 gets into the mainstream, if it's not backward compatable (which I'm not actually sure about).

At least the performance jump between ISA and PCI was more than the difference between my standard DIMM RAM and my new DDR RAM (which gives me...what? 10-15% better performance? I'd rather have lots of the cheap stuff).


Well, the PCI versus ISA performance difference wasn't much to care about when it came to modems, sound cards, and 10MBit NICs. Most office computers only had either a NIC or a modem, not both, and often didn't even have sound. So I think the industry had to force PCI a bit more than you may think.

As for DDR... Now that we have it, and the price has been driven down by availability, would you really go back to SDR even if it's only a 10 to 15% difference in performance? It you were building a bargain system, sure, but otherwise I doubt it. It's fading away, and you won't be able to use it on new systems. Again, it was something the industry kind of had to force, because few of us really wanted it at the time. And Intel was going that whole RAMBUS route (*cough hack* Ick). But if you have an Intel CPU, and don't want to pay RAMBUS premiums, DDR is a boon.

I can't remember the specifics, but the last board with ISA that I saw was almost a year ago. It certainly held on for a while...


I've been searching for a socket A board with ISA for a friend, and the last board I've found that they came on was a few of the KT133A boards. That's a 3 year old chipset, if memory serves. The last VIA SDR chipset, I think. And I don't think there's been an Intel board with them since the 810 and 815 chipsets, though I could be mistaken. But I suppose some manufacturers still make those, for those of us who need them.

Mine was an external. Loved that panel full of LED's: I could always tell what was going on even if my computer was completely confused.


I've never had an external. I thought about getting one one I bought my last ISA modem back in '96, but I couldn't justify the extra price at the time, and I seem to remember reading about problems with some motherboard serial ports not being able to handle 33.6Kbps or faster (I had a 486 DX2/66 at the time 😁). So, I went internal.

Apparently these are for the computers I call "tanks" (you know super-heavy power supply, ISA-everything, giant-sized mechanical on-off switch, and a heavy-duty outer casing that could withstand a low-yield nuclear blast). Still in use for dedicated services I presume...

I loved those things. My 486 was like that. Full-tower case. You could use that thing as a support beam in a building. 😉 And that thing had VESA slots, too. Anyone remember those? Looked like an ISA slot with another slot in front of it for the extra pins. I had video card and an I/O card for it. I think that computer was built from spare parts in the back of some shop of technology that never caught on. Heh.😜

Other than taking up space, I can't/didn't see an argument against AGP.


I remember the argument being particularly fueled by 3dfx fans when 3dfx decided AGP wasn't important in their future. The extra bandwidth wasn't necessary, they said, and it was going to be more expensive to move to this new standard. Of course, in the end, they did anyway, though it took them a while to actually impliment real AGP functionality on their cards.

I will however point out that pulling stupid stunts like Intel did with their motherboards is inexcusable.


Yeah, I'm not sure what would have been so difficult about supporting the higher voltage. I suppose you'd have to ask their engineers. I'm just glad I read that before I tried to go plug my old Riva 128 into my new board (for troubleshooting).

As you might be able to tell, I'm no fan of "accelerated obsolescence". If one thing's going to replace another,OK. But if the replacement doesn't at least match the original and it's pushed on me. I get hostile.

However looking back at it, I (think I) can see that at least part of what you were saying was that the chipset would need to offer support whether or not the board specifically had it, because the chipset would need to work on numerous/different motherboard configurations (some with PS2 connections, others, not).


Yeah, that is what I meant. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I tell ya, I can get long-winded and convoluted at times. Just look at the length of these posts! Sheesh!:D

[b]I've come across a few "bleeding-edge" guys who carried the attitude that anything that was more than a year old should be ignored, disregarded, disavowed, tossed on a scrap heap, etc... and support should be yanked for those things because it "slows them down" when everybody isn't constantly upgrading their machines. I'm glad to see you're not one of them. 😀 ISA, heh...


Heh. Yeah, well... I do buy various upgrades here and there as the years go on (more RAM, better video, bigger hard drive, faster CPU), but my system hadn't had a serious overhaul since '98 or something. I ditched the 486 and bought a 300MHz P2 in '97, got a dual CPU motherboard in '98... Bought a 500MHz P3 in '99... Bought the second 500MHz P3 in '00... Sold them and bought a socket 1 to socket 370 adapter and a 1GHz P3 in '01... I'd had the same motherboard for 3 years at that point. Finally, with some wedding gift cash this year, I gutted the thing and bought an entirely new system. And I'll probably have this for years to come, slowly upgrading things as I see fit, but I'm almost always behind the curve a bit.

[b]Actually, with my present "financial status". I should wait and get one with a "freebate", like all my other keyboards for the past five years.


Heh. I need to get a job, myself, but I'm slacking. Since I got my degree, got married, and quite my old job, I've been taking something of a break (I figure I'm never going to get another extended vacation for a [b]very
long time). But I need to get back out there. That, or validate my reason for sitting at home all day by having children, and I'm not ready for that. 😮

Heh. You shouldn't reveal things like that. People will start coming to you and say "Hey, I've got this little project I'm working on and I was thinking...You know assembly, right?" Assembly. Woof. Programming language of Masochists everywhere... I don't know...maybe just for sub-routines or something.


Assembly is fun in a sick, twisted way. I wrote the some assembly for a final project at the university with some SSE programming (my partner did 3DNow, and we detected what set the CPU supported). I would otherwise avoid using it in day to day things, though. It can cause headaches about the simplest things and it's impossible to troubleshoot the code. That said, it's still fun in that masochistic way. 😀

[b]Haven't attempted anything like real programming since I flunked COBOL ages ago. Was traumatized by a single program that spit out a dozen pages of errors, none of which, gave any indication as to where or what was the actual problem. (Almost) all because I had accidently entered a space (20), where a null (00) should have been somewhere in the code. Ech... making me re-live the nightmare.


Man... COBOL. Would you belive that I actually took a COBOL class within the last few years? I needed the spare credit for my degree, and it was there. That was the most verbose, wordy, needlessly long language I've ever seen. And I'm never going to mention COBOL again, because if an employer ever found out I know COBOL (or Fortran 77 for that matter) I'd get stuck troubleshooting old, uncommented code for eternity. I don't like to program on the job much, anyway, but if I have to I'd rather do it in C++ or VB, or something. I'm more of a technician at heart. More hands-on.

[b]Their constant upgrading cause the manufacturers to introduce new "stuff", dropping the prices on the not-cutting-edge "stuff", which, in turn, allows me to buy quality hardware that's good and cheap.


Quite. It's a good thing. Of course, when I manage to overhaul my entire system I'm sure I spend too much on near top-line stuff, but in the interim, I love the year-old stuff.

Man, these posts are getting long. It's taking me like an hour to reply. Heh heh.🙄

Reply 98 of 117, by boozy

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Uhmm...do I completely miss the point here or isn't it just like putting DEVICE=EMM386.EXE in your config.sys ?

So your config.sys should read something like:

DEVICE=HIMEM.SYS
DEVICE=EMM386.EXE
DOS=HIGH,UMB
FILES=60
BUFFERS=30
FCBS=8
STACKS=0,0
LASTDRIVE=L
DEVICEHIGH= etc etc etc

Reply 99 of 117, by NStriker

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Snover wrote:

Most of the prices I see on Pricewatch are bullshit.

They used to be really bad when they didn't show the shipping costs, and it took some work to track down a really good price. Depending on what you're shopping for, they've been fairly good to me recently. It's usually the really cheap stuff that are questionable deals, where they often wo'nt even have it on the dealer's web page, and it was just a ploy to get you to come to their store.

This improves performance by, like, 2% or less. Idiots. *loathes in a pool of Intel hatrid*


I really do wonder where Intel gets some of its ideas sometimes. I don't even know how some of them look good on paper, let alone on the market.

But, as I said once before, I'm not inclined to lean one way or the other toward AMD or Intel in general, just whatever is best at the time.

So, on the other foot, I can't say as AMD has tried to bring a whole lot of revolutionary new ideas to the market. They generally just make a really darn good chip based on tried and true grounds. That's fine with me, as it certainly keeps the R&D costs down and makes for more affordable hardware, but I wouldn't exactly expect innovation on a regular basis. Which isn't to say Intel makes a lot of good choices all the time, either (RAMBUS and Itanium, for example). Of course, AMD hasn't got billions of dollars to play around with, either.

So... Yeah... I'm babbling now.😜