Tetrium wrote:

PCBONEZ wrote:

Just FYI for the general population. - A public service announcement? […]
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JayCeeBee64 wrote:

@mockingbird:....... The old glue was also removed and fresh white glue was applied in its place .........

Just FYI for the general population. - A public service announcement?

The usual purpose of the glue is to hold the parts in place until the soldering is complete.
It's presence is actually a bad thing as it reduces component cooling. (Reduces exposure to air flow.)
It doesn't need to be replaced EXCEPT in the case where components may move and short each other out.

~~~~~~~

That Enermax PSU looks like a winner post an easy recap.
.

I think you are the right person to answer my next question:
I somehow remember that sometimes the glue was used to lessen excess sounds, preventing parts from vibrating and/or lessen or dampen the noise of coil whine. Is this correct, or have I just been misinformed or have I just made a wrong assumption? I can't remember how I got that bit of memory in my head though, but I might as well ask right now and "update" my own memory 😉

I imagine some companies do that with reducing noise as their intention but unless they are using some problematic parts (like cheap toroids that aren't wound tight enough) I can't see doing it.

Personally, when I have to work on something, I remove as much of it as I can and put back as little as possible.
I've never had it create a noise problem yet. I suppose it could and I just haven't experienced it.
I think I'll stick with what I've been doing and should a noise issue ever come up I'll add some silicon later.

Actually typical glue or silicon sealer/caulk (what most people including many low-end companies and myself use) is not the correct stuff.
The correct product would be certified as non-conductive.
It is around but harder to find. Usually requires research (because the damned labels often don't say) and a mail order to get some.

I -have- heard of such noise issues several times on CCFL inverter boards for LCD screens (including laptops) but it's not super common. Just occasional.
LED backlight screens don't use that high frequency type of inverter so they shouldn't have the problem.

There is an issue with Enermax and glue that I forgot about until a few minutes ago.
The Liberty and Noisetaker models (possibly other same vintage models) had issues when the glue got old. It would become conductive as it aged.
As they were sometimes sloppy with the glue some units had it all over the leads on the big diodes (those after the main transformer) and it eventually caused a short which literally burned up the PSU.
Badcaps.net had a thread on the problem with some good photos but currently BCN is down.
[EDIT] BCN is back up. Here's the link: http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5466
.

PCBONEZ wrote:

I imagine some companies do that with reducing noise as their intention but unless they are using some problematic parts (like c […]
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I imagine some companies do that with reducing noise as their intention but unless they are using some problematic parts (like cheap toroids that aren't wound tight enough) I can't see doing it.

Personally, when I have to work on something, I remove as much of it as I can and put back as little as possible.
I've never had it create a noise problem yet. I suppose it could and I just haven't experienced it.
I think I'll stick with what I've been doing and should a noise issue ever come up I'll add some silicon later.

Actually typical glue or silicon sealer/caulk (what most people including many low-end companies and myself use) is not the correct stuff.
The correct product would be certified as non-conductive.
It is around but harder to find. Usually requires research (because the damned labels often don't say) and a mail order to get some.

I -have- heard of such noise issues several times on CCFL inverter boards for LCD screens (including laptops) but it's not super common. Just occasional.
LED backlight screens don't use that high frequency type of inverter so they shouldn't have the problem.

There is an issue with Enermax and glue that I forgot about until a few minutes ago.
The Liberty and Noisetaker models (possibly other same vintage models) had issues when the glue got old. It would become conductive as it aged.
As they were sometimes sloppy with the glue some units had it all over the leads on the big diodes (those after the main transformer) and it eventually caused a short which literally burned up the PSU.
Badcaps.net had a thread on the problem with some good photos but currently BCN is down.
.

I never realized about the glue becoming conductive in time, but it does sound plausible (I know a bit of chemistry, so I'm not a total newb afatc).
I did read about it, about the glue being used to stiffen things up inside PSUs, but I also know it's best to keep an open mind and never take anything for granted. I've seen companies trying to save a few cents here and there countless times, it would almost be foolish not to (almost), so that doesn't surprise me.
Even the bit about 'lazy labeling' doesn't really surprise me, as I suppose putting too much information on a label might actually deter some people buying their product, partially due to being misinformed themselves

Thanks PCBONEZ, your input is much appreciated 😀

Tetrium wrote:

Noise is not for me, though I wouldn't have minded if it didn't bother me as much as it does. Fan noise I can live with, but whe […]
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Noise is not for me, though I wouldn't have minded if it didn't bother me as much as it does. Fan noise I can live with, but when things get whining (coils, harddrives and some very high RPM fans), that's not for me 😜

I see the ASUS P3B-F is a very popular BX board, even though it only has 1 ISA slot. It does have 4 DIMM slots which is a nice feature.

What surprises me though is that the Chaintech 6BTM seems to have similar features, except maybe for overclocking (never tried it, I suppose the ASUS P3B-F may be better in this regard as it is perhaps a more mature design), but the 6BTM comes with 3 ISA slots and also has 4 DIMM slots.

A little story here: Back at where I used to work (we overhauled old computers, rebuilding them), we got basically 2 large batches of motherboards: A batch of ASUS A7V133 boards along with some A7V boards (sA SDRAM, the A7V is 100MHz FSB only, no ISA) and a batch of Chaintech 6BTM boards (some supported Coppermine and some didn't).
The A7Vs and A7V133s were very picky about RAM and were quite the challenge to get stable with more than 1 RAM module, 2 or more was quite hopeless and we ended up swapping memory modules around till we found something that was reasonably stable.
The 6BTMs otoh were remarkably easy to work with, we could basically put any type of RAM in there and even mix em up a bit, so we used those a lot to 'ditch' our large supply of 64MB SDRAMs.

But at some time my boss decided the Chaintech boards were simply too old to work with and the ASUS boards simply took too much time to get stable, and since my boss knew I always wanted to bring stuff home that would otherwise end up in the bin, he thought it was a good idea to ask me if I had any interest in having all the remaining boards, and I said "yes". To him, this only meant one less trip to the disposal and I got 12 or 14 boards or so for free and after testing only 1 or 2 seemed to have some hardware problem, the rest worked fine.

These Chaintech boards...I really like them a lot!

I guess you didn't read what I wrote earlier about noisy computers, so I'll just quote myself here:

The P3 CPU fan is a 60mm, the GF2 fan is a 45mm; no problems with them so far, and believe it or not they are not the loudest. The two 80mm case fans are - they have this distinctive whine when running at full speed (around 3800rpm) and drown even the PSU fan with it. Still, a loud PC doesn't really bother me; I grew up in a very noisy neighborhood back in my native Ecuador (my family lived very close to a shipyard and a furniture factory with a loading dock and warehouse for a number of years) and nothing short of an earthquake or very loud thunder would wake me up or startle me. Even my Core i5 PC with six 120mm fans is no match for me; I frequently leave it on all night, doing whatever task I need done while I'm asleep. I don't mind peace and quiet, but I also don't mind loud noises 😊

I also don't look for specific motherboard features, just take what I can get; and the P3B-F was up for grabs so I took it, that's all. Overclocking is not a factor either - I don't do it or care for it. There are two brands that I avoid though, ECS and PC Chips; too many bad experiences with both to overlook.

JayCeeBee64 wrote:

I guess you didn't read what I wrote earlier about noisy computers, so I'll just quote myself here: […]
Show full quote

Tetrium wrote:

Noise is not for me, though I wouldn't have minded if it didn't bother me as much as it does. Fan noise I can live with, but whe […]
Show full quote

Noise is not for me, though I wouldn't have minded if it didn't bother me as much as it does. Fan noise I can live with, but when things get whining (coils, harddrives and some very high RPM fans), that's not for me 😜

I see the ASUS P3B-F is a very popular BX board, even though it only has 1 ISA slot. It does have 4 DIMM slots which is a nice feature.

What surprises me though is that the Chaintech 6BTM seems to have similar features, except maybe for overclocking (never tried it, I suppose the ASUS P3B-F may be better in this regard as it is perhaps a more mature design), but the 6BTM comes with 3 ISA slots and also has 4 DIMM slots.

A little story here: Back at where I used to work (we overhauled old computers, rebuilding them), we got basically 2 large batches of motherboards: A batch of ASUS A7V133 boards along with some A7V boards (sA SDRAM, the A7V is 100MHz FSB only, no ISA) and a batch of Chaintech 6BTM boards (some supported Coppermine and some didn't).
The A7Vs and A7V133s were very picky about RAM and were quite the challenge to get stable with more than 1 RAM module, 2 or more was quite hopeless and we ended up swapping memory modules around till we found something that was reasonably stable.
The 6BTMs otoh were remarkably easy to work with, we could basically put any type of RAM in there and even mix em up a bit, so we used those a lot to 'ditch' our large supply of 64MB SDRAMs.

But at some time my boss decided the Chaintech boards were simply too old to work with and the ASUS boards simply took too much time to get stable, and since my boss knew I always wanted to bring stuff home that would otherwise end up in the bin, he thought it was a good idea to ask me if I had any interest in having all the remaining boards, and I said "yes". To him, this only meant one less trip to the disposal and I got 12 or 14 boards or so for free and after testing only 1 or 2 seemed to have some hardware problem, the rest worked fine.

These Chaintech boards...I really like them a lot!

I guess you didn't read what I wrote earlier about noisy computers, so I'll just quote myself here:

The P3 CPU fan is a 60mm, the GF2 fan is a 45mm; no problems with them so far, and believe it or not they are not the loudest. The two 80mm case fans are - they have this distinctive whine when running at full speed (around 3800rpm) and drown even the PSU fan with it. Still, a loud PC doesn't really bother me; I grew up in a very noisy neighborhood back in my native Ecuador (my family lived very close to a shipyard and a furniture factory with a loading dock and warehouse for a number of years) and nothing short of an earthquake or very loud thunder would wake me up or startle me. Even my Core i5 PC with six 120mm fans is no match for me; I frequently leave it on all night, doing whatever task I need done while I'm asleep. I don't mind peace and quiet, but I also don't mind loud noises 😊

I also don't look for specific motherboard features, just take what I can get; and the P3B-F was up for grabs so I took it, that's all. Overclocking is not a factor either - I don't do it or care for it. There are two brands that I avoid though, ECS and PC Chips; too many bad experiences with both to overlook.

I did read it, I wasn't referring to you specifically (except for the noise part perhaps), but to the general conception about the ASUS P3B-F being a very popular board and my own experiences with some other boards. I'll admit I went a bit offtopic there, but I wasn't ignoring you or anything 😉

JayCeeBee64 wrote:

The P3 CPU fan is a 60mm, the GF2 fan is a 45mm; no problems with them so far, and believe it or not they are not the loudest. The two 80mm case fans are - they have this distinctive whine when running at full speed (around 3800rpm) and drown even the PSU fan with it. Still, a loud PC doesn't really bother me; I grew up in a very noisy neighborhood back in my native Ecuador (my family lived very close to a shipyard and a furniture factory with a loading dock and warehouse for a number of years) and nothing short of an earthquake or very loud thunder would wake me up or startle me. Even my Core i5 PC with six 120mm fans is no match for me; I frequently leave it on all night, doing whatever task I need done while I'm asleep. I don't mind peace and quiet, but I also don't mind loud noises 😊

Try living and sleeping directly below a jet engine machine shop that uses an engine test platform while you are trying to sleep.
Loud fans don't bother me much because I don't hear worth a shit anyway...

Tetrium wrote:

I did read it, I wasn't referring to you specifically (except for the noise part perhaps), but to the general conception about the ASUS P3B-F being a very popular board and my own experiences with some other boards. I'll admit I went a bit offtopic there, but I wasn't ignoring you or anything 😉

I see, my apologies, got a little defensive there; sorry about that 😅

PCBONEZ wrote:

Try living and sleeping directly below a jet engine machine shop that uses an engine test platform while you are trying to sleep.
Loud fans don't bother me much because I don't hear worth a shit anyway...

(Goes to watch & listen some jet engine videos)

OUCH!! That really hurts!! Talk about a seriously loud whine!! 😵 😵 😵

(And yes, I'm sure those pale in comparison to the real thing *_*)

JayCeeBee64 wrote:

Tetrium wrote:

I did read it, I wasn't referring to you specifically (except for the noise part perhaps), but to the general conception about the ASUS P3B-F being a very popular board and my own experiences with some other boards. I'll admit I went a bit offtopic there, but I wasn't ignoring you or anything 😉

I see, my apologies, got a little defensive there; sorry about that 😅

Don't worry about it. And don't worry about your cable management either, I basically just tie the stuff together so it doesn't swing into a fan, jamming it and creating a mess inside 😁

Some say P3 1000 MHz has more compatibility problems than P3 up to ~800 MHz. Have no idea where are those problems concretely.

Tertz wrote:

Some say P3 1000 MHz has more compatibility problems than P3 up to ~800 MHz. Have no idea where are those problems concretely.

So far the only problem I found was with the 1006 BIOS, it didn't really know how to deal with the P3 1000E; flashed to the last official 1008b4 version and now the P3B-F behaves itself once again. Of course, more testing needs to be done.

I wasn't going to do much testing at first, but seeing how well the GF2 did in 16-bit high color I got carried away and also ran 32-bit true color benchmarks. Because of this I have to break my results in several posts, otherwise there would be a huge single post with lots of screenshots; that would get quite cumbersome to read 😅

For starters, here are 3 CPU-Z screens showing the new Pentium III CPU and Asus beta BIOS:

Now I'll post 3DMark results for GF2 16-bit, GF2 32-bit and Voodoo 2 SLI:

3DMark 99 Max

3DMark 2000

3DMark 2001 SE

This shows the GF2 GTS has gained quite a boost from the P3 1000E, while the Voodoo 2 SLI only has very modest increases. Not really a surprise - by the time the GF2 came out Voodoo 2 was living on borrowed time already. Onto the next post.....

Now for some GLQuake timedemos; first the GF2 in 16-bit high color mode:

640x480=209.6 FPS

800x600=201.8 FPS

1024x768=173.8 FPS

1152x864=151.1 FPS

1280x1024=125.7 FPS

Very nice! The GF2 performed so well that I went as high in resolution as my monitor could handle. Onto the next post.....

Next, GF2 results in 32-bit true color mode:

640x480=200.6 FPS

800x600=182.4 FPS

1024x768=137.4 FPS

1152x864=113.4 FPS

1280x1024=89.0 FPS

Here's where the GF2 begins to show its Achilles heel - true color demands more than it can truly deliver. Still, the GF2 holds its own so far.

Onto the next post.....

It's time for the Voodoo 2 SLI to show what it can do:

640x480=169.8 FPS

800x600=134.4 FPS

1024x768=94.0 FPS

Not bad. Not bad at all. GLQuake is what gave 3dfx its notoriety back then, and that still holds true here - even though the GF2 is clearly leaving it behind. Onto the next post.....

Now here's something different. I wanted to benchmark the GF2's DirectDraw performance, and after some thinking and looking around I stumbled on a long forgotten old favorite - WinQuake.

512x384=61.4 FPS

640x480=54.4 FPS

800x600=39.8 FPS

1024x768=26.9 FPS

1280x1024=17.8 FPS

Well now, WinQuake is pretty demanding. I'm not certain if the Pentium III or GF2 are unable to keep up; I'll give my Pentium 4 Northwood/GF6600 PC a shot to see what results I get with them. Onto the next post.....

Now for some Quake 2 timedemos; like before, the GF2 in 16-bit high color mode (OpenGL):

640x480=160.8 FPS

800x600=161.8 FPS

1024x768=159.7 FPS

1152x864=158.7 FPS

1280x960=147.2 FPS

Once again, very nice 😎 . The GF2 is clearly in its element in high color modes. Onto the next post.....

Now for GF2 results in 32-bit true color mode (OpenGL):

640x480=161.9 FPS

800x600=162.5 FPS

1024x768=147.7 FPS

1152x864=125.8 FPS

1280x960=107.1 FPS

Just like with GLQuake, true color mode drags the GF2 down a few notches in high resolutions; still a good showing though. Onto the next post.....

Last but not least, the Voodoo 2 SLI:

640x480=118.1 FPS

800x600=96.4 FPS

1024x768=68.8 FPS

The Voodoo 2 is now losing steam very fast, and the GF2 is so far ahead it cannot even be seen in the distance. Oh well 😒 . Onto the next post...

Finally my last set of benchmarks with Unreal 2.05 - and a chance for the Voodoo 2 SLI to shine:

640x480=68.97 FPS

800x600=56.84 FPS

1024x768=43.67 FPS

There's definitely some improvement, but not as much as I expected. At least gameplay at 1024x768 has become a little smoother 😊

Here's where I'll stop for now (whew!), but still would like to benchmark some Direct3D games; so far I have Forsaken and Unreal Gold on hand, and may also consider MDK. I'll have to check the rest of my game collection to see what else is there. I may also try Quake 2 and Unreal with software renderers, but seeing how WinQuake did it may not be such a good idea after all. Time to do some more thinking.

It looks good. How do you get your 2 voodoo 2 cards to work properly with your p3b-f + p3 1 ghz?

_Letni wrote:

It looks good. How do you get your 2 voodoo 2 cards to work properly with your p3b-f + p3 1 ghz?

Nothing special, just install the Voodoo 2 cards, plug in the internal SLI cable, plug in the passthrough cable to the second Voodoo 2, boot your PC, install drivers (has to be done twice, once for each card), and you're good to go; SLI gets automatically detected and enabled.

The only detail is in the drivers. I'm using the last official Win9x version (3.02.02), that means both cards have to be from the same brand and with the same amount of memory; SLI won't work otherwise. There are some third-party drivers available at falconfly.de that claim to make SLI work without these restrictions, but results have been mixed - some had success, others had problems (only one card works, missing\corrupt textures, game crashes\freezes).

Both Voodoo 2 cards have no problems or issues with the motherboard or CPU so far, everything just works. In fact, they get along just fine with Pentium 1 processors all the way to the mighty Pentium III-S Tualatins and Tualerons; some have even been used on 486 computers. It's with Pentium 4 systems that a well known issue arises, excessive heat; extra cooling must be implemented to protect the cards from overheating and possible damage. Also, third party drivers are needed to overcome a timing issue with the 3dfx Control Panel (the OS will crash otherwise).