In deciding exactly how fast of a retro PC I want to build, I have observed three schools of thought:
One school would keep the system to a high-end 486 or low end Pentium. A second school of thought would use a high end Pentium (w/MMX) or maybe a less speedy Pentium II. The final school of thought would use a Pentium III or early Athlon below 1GHz.
Now, I don't really see the benefits of the first school and several drawbacks. First, those earlier motherboards are harder to come by and don't use an ATX form factor and often don't come with PS/2 ports. Second, many early Windows and later DOS games run best on later Pentiums, especially at the higher resolutions. I would also like to use Windows 98SE if possible as the main OS. Finally, I would prefer to use PCI graphics cards rather than VLB cards, and these early motherboards come with few PCI slots. Also, ethernet cards would be preferable in a PCI form factor (if nothing else to avoid resource conflicts.) Third, I would like to use a Voodoo 3dfx card, which requires a 2nd PCI slot and is generally used with processors faster than these. Fourth, I would like to use a hard drive without having to configure drive parameters. Also, a more modern motherboard would be assured of two IDE ports. Finally, I would like a name motherboard manufacturer so I can obtain a manual on-line, BIOS updates, and a measure of reliability.
The third school also has its drawbacks. Motherboards on this end of the scale often only come with one ISA slot, while my system needs at least two with room for more. I am also suspicious about the functionality of these slots. I'm sure there are some later DOS/early Windows games that would have trouble with the higher speeds. These systems should be used with AGP cards, which won't work with a Voodoo1 card.
First, those earlier motherboards are harder to come by and don't use an ATX form factor and often don't come with PS/2 ports.
They are either full size AT or baby AT and this is just as much a standard as ATX is now. Finding a casing shouldn't be hard.
PS/2 to Serial plugs do exist and can be had easily. I have some if you want.
Second, many early Windows and later DOS games run best on later Pentiums, especially at the higher resolutions.
This is a good thing to consider. Many later games (especially early 3D games) will run really bad on a 486. No matter how high end it is.
...and these early motherboards come with few PCI slots.
I have a 486 PCI motherboard lying around (AP43). It has three PCI slots.
Videocard, Voodoo and NIC. You should be able to fit your wants.
Also, ethernet cards would be preferable in a PCI form factor (if nothing else to avoid resource conflicts.)
NICs don't take many resources (unlike soundcards).
PCI is not the only alternative to ISA for a NIC. VLB NICs do exist (I own and use one), but granted these things are rare. If you need throughput and are using an old motherboard though it is your only choice.
Fourth, I would like to use a hard drive without having to configure drive parameters.
This is not a problem on 486 motherboards. It all depends on the bios used; choose carefully.
I have an old 386/486 motherboard with VIA chipset and a really bad Award bios in which you have to set it manually. Yet that same type of board was also shipped, during the same time period, with an Ami bios which did have automatic HD detection.
Also, a more modern motherboard would be assured of two IDE ports.
The amount of IDE ports is a bios problem. If the bios supports two you can add a controller card with two ports. If it supports one you might be able to upgrade the bios and then enable the secondary port on your card.
Now, I don't really see the benefits of the first school and several drawbacks. First, those earlier motherboards are harder to come by and don't use an ATX form factor and often don't come with PS/2 ports. Second, many early Windows and later DOS games run best on later Pentiums, especially at the higher resolutions. I would also like to use Windows 98SE if possible as the main OS. Finally, I would prefer to use PCI graphics cards rather than VLB cards, and these early motherboards come with few PCI slots. Also, ethernet cards would be preferable in a PCI form factor (if nothing else to avoid resource conflicts.) Third, I would like to use a Voodoo 3dfx card, which requires a 2nd PCI slot and is generally used with processors faster than these. Fourth, I would like to use a hard drive without having to configure drive parameters. Also, a more modern motherboard would be assured of two IDE ports. Finally, I would like a name motherboard manufacturer so I can obtain a manual on-line, BIOS updates, and a measure of reliability.
I have read your many other posts on PC workstations and especially your knowledgable posts about SoundBlaster sound cards in their many variations... I learned quite a bit about sound cards on those threads in which you and others have participated. From these posts it appears that you are a methodical researcher when it comes to PC hardware so I thought you might give consideration to my "proposal" for a possible PC hardware solution to the 'retro' PC requirements you posted.
Extracted "Retro" PC workstation requirements:
11.) High end Pentium(w/MMX) or lower end Pentium II CPU 22.) PS/2 ports for Mouse and Keyboard 33.) Minimum 2 PCI slots (version 2.1) 44.) Minimum 2 ISA slots (full length) 55.) PCI slots to support PCI graphics adapters 66.) ISA slots to support Sound cards 77.) PCI slots to support Ethernet adapter 88.) Two IDE ports for EIDE drives and CD-ROM drives 99.) BIOS Int 13h extensions - support hard drives up to 128GB 1010.) Auto BIOS support for hard drive parameters with modern EIDE drives 1111.) Well-known manufacturer with manual, BIOS updates, reliability 1212.) Windows 98SE as primary OS, sufficient CPU speed and memory
I would propose the Dell OptiPlex GxPro 200(upgraded), as I believe that it meets the above requirements I extracted from your initial message. I have this exact Dell GxPro 200 as one of my secondary PC/Server workstations used for older MS-DOS v6.22 game testing and as a test server for Windows NT 4.0 Server EE, Win2K, WinXP, Novell, OS/2 and various Linux distributions from time-to-time.
I would propose that you investigate almost duplicating my Dell GxPro configuration - as I believe that with all it configuration details listed it is an ideal candidate for your 'retro' PC requirements. It will meet every one of the above listed requirements and has a few pluses that other PC hardware solutions might not equal.
I am not the only one to sing the praises of the Dell OptiPlex GxPro system. Here is a link to the "Oldskool" PC website which details some advantages of the Dell OptiPlex GxPro 200 under the sub-heading: "An Oldskooler's Dream".
First off is the technical information from Dell about the GxPro. This model Dell shipped with either a Pentium Pro 180MHz or 200MHz processor (with 16Kib L1 cache, 512Kib of on-die full-speed L2 cache RAM) using the Intel 82440FX"Natoma" PCI chipset with an Intel Socket 8 on the Dell-designed motherboard. Additionally it could be configured as a single or dual Socket 8 Pentium Pro processor system. My particular GxPro was a dual processor configuration from 1997 which used dual Intel Pentium Pro 200MHz processors with 16Kib L1 and 512Kib on-die L2 cache. To be sure, the dual CPUs are only effective in operating systems which support them - the WinNT/Win2K/WinXP/Win2003 family, Novell and certain Linux distributions. When running either DOS or Win9X operating systems only a single CPU is utilized. Since you are looking to support DOS or Win9x - the typically sold OptiPlex GxPro single Pentium Pro CPU configuration would be ideal. The GxPro has four buffered memory slots which will support up to 512MB of ECC or non-ECC BEDO, EDO or FPM memory. I have a maxed-out 512MB of EDO ECC memory in my GxPro - since it is also supports 'server' duties. Dell limited the GxPro system to a maximum of 512MB RAM even though the 82440FX "Natoma" chipset cacheability limit is 1024MB RAM, because the original Pentium Pro L2 cacheability limit was 512MB RAM and was thereby the controlling factor in system memory cacheability.
The GxPro is an interesting configuration because of what it includes on the motherboard itself. Here is a link to the Dell GxPro technical information which is the same information as Appendix A of my Dell GxPro User's guide. The Dell GxPro motherboard does NOT have any built-in video - that must come via a Video adapter in the PCI or ISA slots. The on-board features include a Creative Labs licensed Vibra 16S VLSI chip which is integrated on the motherboard - providing a SB16 at port 220h, IRQ 5, DMA 1&5 - saving an ISA slot. Additionally the PC speaker sound can be routed to the on-board Vibra 16S. Using the DOS-based DIAG program v2.60 by Dominik Marks it is reported that the SB16 DSP version is 4.13 and the 'mixer' is reported as a CT1745. The GxPro motherboard also has an on-board 3Com 3C905TX 10/100mbs Ethernet NIC RJ-45 port (if shipped with USB 1.1 ports) - saving a PCI slot. Both the on-board SB16 and 3Com Ethernet NIC can be turned OFF in the Dell GxPro BIOS.
Other GxPro motherboard features: Parallel port (AT or PS/2-ECP) - (may be disabled); Com1: & Com2: serial ports- (may be disabled); PS/2 Mouse (may be disabled) and Keyboard ports; USB 1.1 ports - (should be disabled), 3Com 10/100 Ethernet RJ-45 port - (may be disabled); micro-phone, speaker, line-in jacks; support for EIDE bus-master drivers; a removable 5 position PC/ISA slot backplane. The removable backplane has a total of 5 slots - configurable as 5 PCI/0 ISA, 4 PCI/1 ISA or 3 PCI/2 ISA slots. PCI Video adapters must be in PCI Slot #0 or PCI Slot #1, ISA video adapters may go in either ISA slot.
The last issued Flash BIOS update from Dell for the OptiPlex GxPro was the still available version A10 - here are the details from Dell. The important feature added was for auto-recognition and BIOS Int 13h extension support for EIDE hard drives in the 8.4GB to 128GB range. The GxPro with this BIOS has successfully executed all Microsoft operating systems from MS-DOS 6.22 to WinXP(SP1).
1Dell Optiplex GxPro 200 Flash BIOS update A10: 2 3The following problems in the A09 BIOS were corrected to generate the A10 BIOS: 4 51) Added support for drives greater than 8.4GB. 62) Updated the Dell copyright to 2000. 73) Corrected the way we calculate the days in the month in system setup. 84) Added entries for routing the USB interrupts. For Windows 2000. 95) CMOS byte 37 changed from spares to EIDE status bits.
You might notice that I recommended a Dell GxPro (upgraded). Well, outside its current configuration which maxes out the EDO ECC RAM DIMMs to 512MB, has two 3.5" EIDE hard drives, a 3.5" 1.44MB floppy drive, a 5.25" 1.2MB floppy drive and a CD-RW/DVD-ROM drive and dual CPUs - what more could be added outside of the five PCI/ISA slots? Well Dell did sell an AWE32 upgrade card which I found out from one your postings is a "Goldfinch". I originally purchased this EMU8000 synth-only upgrade ISA adapter from Dell when I originally purchased the GxPro. The small ISA card is labeled as a Creative Labs CT1920 (with two SIMM slots) which only connects to the removable Dell backplane via a small ribbon cable. It takes up an ISA slot but the end result combined with the on-board Vibra 16S "SB16" is functionally an AWE32 as far as Creative software and DOS games are concerned. This would still leave one ISA slot free for another sound card - such as a GUS 'Classic' 1MB - or the CT1920 AWE Upgrade could be ignored and the GxPro might be configured with three ISA "sound cards" available for use, with one of them being the on-board SB16.
The only other "upgrade" to the Dell OptiPlex GxPro did not come from Dell. It came from Intel. This is the 'upgrade' that I originally referenced in this message. The Dell GxPro motherboard used the Intel Socket 8 for Pentium Pro CPU support. Since the Pentium Pro core was optimized for 32-bit instruction support, it was around 35% faster than a Pentium at the same clock speed for 32-bit code, while the Pentium Pro was only about 20% faster in executing 16-bit code versus the original Pentium at the same clock speed, furthermore it did not support the Pentium MMX instruction set. After a few years Intel finally did offer the Socket 8 processor upgrade that it had promised to corporate IT shops - the Intel Pentium II Overdrive Processor. This upgrade Pentium II Overdrive CPU was offered in a 300/333MHz version, had an integrated cooling fan, 32Kib L1 on-die cache, 512Kib on-card full-speed L2 cache RAM, support for the MMX instruction set and was drop-in replaceable for the Pentium Pro in any Socket 8 based system - single or dual CPU configuration. It had an advantage over the normal Intel Pentium II processor in that its L2 cache was twice as fast as it was 'full-speed' where as most Pentium IIs had 512Kib of on-socket L2 cache that operated at 'half-speed'. Plus the Pentium II core now executed 16-bit code as fast as 32-bit code. CPU benchmarks shown that the Intel Pentium II Overdrive 333MHz upgrade processor comes very close to the performance of a 'regular' Slot 1 Intel Pentium II 350MHz. The Pentium II Overdrive was really a mini-Socket 8 version of the Slot 2 Pentium II Xeon server processor. The other advantage the Pentium II Overdrive processor over the Slot 1 Pentium II (and the original Pentium Pro) is that the maximum main memory cache limit of the 82440FX "Natoma" chipset of 1,024MB can now be reached since the L2 cacheability limit of the Pentium II Overdrive processor is 4,096MB RAM due to its Pentium II Xeon roots. The normal Slot 1 Pentium II and the original Pentium Pro have an L2 cacheability limit of 512MB RAM. While I doubt that you require a 1GB ECC BEDO RAM system - the faster 16-bit code execution, larger 32Kib L1 and full-speed 512Kib L2 caches might put this special CPU right it the 'sweet spot' of your CPU and operating system requirements. The Pentium II Overdrive processor upgrade can be found on Ebay like this one for around $30.00 when they show up...
The other interesting hardware feature of the Dell OptiPlex GxPro is the support in the BIOS for (for any OS) and by the "CTRL-ALT-" real-time keystroke sequence (for DOS) to hardware toggle the CPU speed between the CPU MAXIMUM speed and a much reduced clock rate - say around an 8-12MHz effective CPU clock rate given a Pentium II Overdrive processor upgrade. This feature would allow the execution of many CPU speed sensitive games from the early DOS 8086 (PC/XT) and 80286 (PC/AT) days - an added bonus. The Dell GxPro A10 BIOS will function properly with the Intel Pentium II Overdrive processor upgrade - but reports it as a "133MHz" processor - but it is functioning at 333MHz, just a minor BIOS text string anomaly - since the Intel CPU upgrade was not accounted for by the last Dell GxPro A10 Flash BIOS.
The only replacement parts installed on my particular Dell GxPro 200 since 1997 was the CR2032 disc battery and the Dell HP-233SS power supply, both in March of 2005 - after eight years of use. I probably overloaded the power supply after many years (when it was my primary PC) by handling the dual Pentium II Overdrive CPUs, 512MB ECC EDO RAM, 1 ISA and 4 PCI adapters, three SCSI Seagate 10,000rpm hard drives, a Plextor 12/10/32S SCSI CD-RW drive and the 3.5" floppy. I had shifted the GxPro to an all IDE configuration when it became a secondary test PC/server but the power supply was occasionally "flakey"... I therefore replaced the power supply - I was able to get a refurbished Dell HP-233SS 230W power supply on Ebay for $12.00 total that quickly restored the GxPro to a working test PC/server status. If you do decide to purchase a used GxPro, I would recommend also purchasing a re-built HP-233SS power supply, since that would be the older GxPro component most prone to failure - since most GxPros were produced from 1996 to 1998. The Dell HP-233SS power supply was very common on many models of the Dell OptiPlex PCs, so it may be found quite easily.
1Details on Dell-specific GxPro 200 power-supply: 2 3Model: HP-233SS 4 Size: 230 Watt 5 +3.3V 14A 6 +5.0V 29A 7 +12 V 6A 8 -5.0V 0.3A 9 -12 V 0.3A
Attached to this message are two files named "GXPRO_PICS1.ZIP" and "GXPRO_PICS2.ZIP" which contains three sets of JPG files. I had to pull the GxPro out for its semi-annual cleaning/dusting so I took the digital photos while it was disassembled. The first set of 20 digital photos (most without flash) are of the GxPro internals, device bays, external ports, etc just to give you a sense of the unit. The second set of JPG files is a series of screen-shots of the CPU benchmark section of the shareware DOS program DIAG.EXE v2.60 to give a relative 'feel' of the Pentium II Overdrive processor speed in comparison to other CPUs - at both its normal and GxPro hardware 'slowdown' speed. The third set of JPG files is a series of screen-shots of Dosbox v0.65 executing the same CPU benchmark section of the DIAG.EXE program on a host system Intel P4-640 3.2GHz HT processor running Windows XP(SP2) with the Dosbox CORE=DYNAMIC and CYCLES=56277. This Dosbox v0.65 CPU emulation benchmark was done as a relative "ballpark" comparison to the Pentium II Overdrive processor in the GxPro. Under the above listed conditions Dosbox 0.65 seem about equal to a Pentium 100MHz CPU.
1File Name Description 2*************************************************************************************** 3GxPro_001.jpg GxPro, Dell power supply - model HP233SS 4GxPro_002.jpg GxPro, backplane riser removed, power supply lifted 5GxPro_003.jpg GxPro, closer shot of dual Pentium II Overdrive processors 6GxPro_004.jpg GxPro, Vibra 16s, 3Com 3C916 ASIC visible near center label 7GxPro_005.jpg GxPro, rearview, ports visible, USB near Ethernet 8GxPro_006.jpg GxPro, white plastic full-length ISA card holder bottom left 9GxPro_007.jpg GxPro, removable backplane riser 10GxPro_008.jpg GxPro, rear external view removable backplane riser 11GxPro_009.jpg Creative Labs ISA CT1920 removed, ribbon cable connector 12GxPro_010.jpg GxPro backplane riser half-way inserted 13GxPro_011.jpg GxPro re-assembled ready for desktop case closing 14GxPro_012.jpg GxPro 3.5" 1.44MB floppy, 5.25" 1.2MB floppy, Sony CDRW/DVDR 15GxPro_013.jpg GxPro rear with removable backplane riser in place 16GxPro_014.jpg GxPro OptiPlex case top EFI/strength shield 17GxPro_015.jpg GxPro front view, sealed, dusted out and ready for Anthrocart home 18GxPro_016.jpg GxPro front view, external drive bays 19GxPro_017.jpg GxPro rear view, young nephew safety protection installed 20GxPro_018.jpg GxPro A10 BIOS screen #1 21GxPro_019.jpg GxPro A10 BIOS screen #2 22GxPro_021.jpg GxPro Boot menu, System Commander v3.06 23 24 GxPro with 333Mhz Intel Pentium II Overdrive: 25P2_333_bench_001.jpg Main menu DIAG.EXE v2.60 26P2_333_bench_002.jpg CPU information screen (wrong Layout info) 27P2_333_bench_003.jpg Pentium II Overdrive vs other CPUs 28P2_333_bench_004.jpg Pentium II Overdrive vs Pentium 100MHz 29P2_333_bench_005.jpg Pentium II Overdrive Mandelbrot benchmark 30P2_333_bench_006.jpg Pentium II Overdrive (slowed) vs other CPUs 31P2_333_bench_007.jpg Pentium II Overdrive (slowed) vs Pentium 100MHz 32 33 34 Intel P4-640 3.2GHz HT, WinXP(SP2) 35 Dosbox 0.65: Core=DYNAMIC Cycles=56277: 36DosBox_bench_001.jpg Dosbox v0.65 CPU emulation information 37DosBox_bench_002.jpg Dosbox v0.65 CPU emulation vs other CPUs 38DosBox_bench_003.jpg Dosbox v0.65 CPU emulation vs Pentium 100MHz 39DosBox_bench_004.jpg Dosbox v0.65 CPU emulation Mandelbrot benchmark 40***************************************************************************************
The only warning on the Dell GxPro is to DISABLE the built-in motherboard USB 1.1 ports in the GxPro A10 BIOS. The ports never worked properly, made plug-and-play resource shifting fail and caused PCI IRQ sharing problems. I learned this early on and used an aftermarket USB 2.0 PCI adapter instead - all has been well for many years. Remember - you need to get a GxPro with these 'useless' Intel USB 1.1 motherboard ports in order to get the 10/100 3Com 3C905TX RJ-45 port via the 3Com Ethernet 3C916 ASIC on the GxPro motherboard. Remember not to forget the IBM "Model M" buckling spring keyboard for that real 'retro' PC experience...
A little long-winded, but I thought that this information might help you (or others) in your search for a good 'retro' PC workstation for newer DOS and earlier Windows games. I am sure there are many other equally valid PC configurations which would work as well, though probably not better than this "built like a tank" 1997 Dell creation. I look forward to your report on whatever 'retro' PC solution you (and others) find that best meets your needs...
Wow, very nice report about your GXPro dvwjr! Since I read Trixter's reference to this computer a few years ago on oldskool.org, I always wanted to know more about it.
The "schools of thought" observation is basically correct, but I don't think many people really care about the specific hardware that much, as long as it runs their favourite games. For them it doesn't matter if it is the P3-600 they still have under their desk or the 486-33 they just found in the attic.
My school of thought is a little different:
1) You won't get away with just one classic rig 😁
2) The mainboard is the most important part in an oldskool PC, it should support everything from a specific era. Typically these boards are the last of their generation.
3) A collection of classic hardware (several CPUs, a bunch of ISA soundcards, different VGAs) is important to get old software running the best way possible. Don't rely on one piece of hardware too much, there is always something it can't do. If it doesn't work, you can swap in another.
Wow, I am seriously impressed, but I do have one concern. Ideally I would need three ISA slots with room to grow and the Dell only has two. I have the following devices:
Roland LAPC-I
Sound Blaster 16 SCSI-2 ASP + Yamaha DB50XG
Roland MPU-401AT + Roland SCB-55
Now, the Roland daughterboard is more important to me than the Yamaha daughterboard. However, the functionality of an LAPC-I can be duplicated by an external CM-32L or CM-64. Also, can the Dell fit a full length ISA card?
It stands as a pillar giving strength to the ideas behind this forum. I'm sure it will be informative to countless visitors.
to Great Hierophant:
Judging by the photos full length cards should fit.
Dell even added the extra card holder to secure full length cards.
A collection of classic hardware (several CPUs, a bunch of ISA soundcards, different VGAs) is important to get old software running the best way possible. Don't rely on one piece of hardware too much, there is always something it can't do.
This is good to remember.
For example you have a SB16.
This will give you problems if a game supports only the SB and SB Pro. The SB16 does not have 100% SB Pro compatibility. You would have to be satisfied with mono.
Also videocards have their issues; each their own.
The Diamond Stealth 64, for example, is a great card no doubt, but while playing "Under a Killing Moon" it shows strange behaviour. If you have a bunch of cards you can always swap.
As for the casing. If you are really keen on using a modern case the 486 and Pentium idea won't be practical if you don't like/want to modify a case.
The PS/2 idea is trivial.
If you use a serial mouse on COM1 you only take up IRQ4. You can still disable COM2 and use IRQ3 (which I would give to the NIC).
For example you have a SB16.
This will give you problems if a game supports only the SB and SB Pro. The SB16 does not have 100% […] Show full quote
For example you have a SB16.
This will give you problems if a game supports only the SB and SB Pro. The SB16 does not have 100% SB Pro compatibility. You would have to be satisfied with mono.
Also videocards have their issues; each their own.
The Diamond Stealth 64, for example, is a great card no doubt, but while playing "Under a Killing Moon" it shows strange behaviour. If you have a bunch of cards you can always swap.
As for the casing. If you are really keen on using a modern case the 486 and Pentium idea won't be practical if you don't like/want to modify a case.
The PS/2 idea is trivial.
If you use a serial mouse on COM1 you only take up IRQ4. You can still disable COM2 and use IRQ3 (which I would give to the NIC).
If I were to get the Dell, which has a NIC, I could use COM1 for a serial mouse (originally I was thinking of a modem on COM1 and a PS/2 Mouse using IRQ12.)
I don't plan to use SB16 to run those games that can take advantage of the SBPro. DOSBox can run those games that really need the older hardware.
The videocard I have in mind is an ET6000, which I hear are among the best compatibility-wise.
Hmm, I didn't expect you would want to use a modem (why?).
5u3 has an ET6000, but this card shows strange behaviour when he runs scene demos. He swaps it with an isa card in such cases.
If scene demos have problems, then there is always the possibility games can show the same problems. Not only for the fact many sceners ended up in the game industry.
I hope he can perhaps talk a bit about this issue.
Glad I could provide some information in your decision process! I was lucky to get that particular Dell back when it was a high-end PC workstation. Now it seems to have gracefully aged into an ideal DOS/Win98 and test server platform
Great Hierophant wrote:
Also, can the Dell fit a full length ISA card?
Sure can. Both ISA slots in the removable backplane riser can take full-length ISA adapters. Those ISA slots are even ISA Plug&Plag v1.0 compatible. If you look at the GxPro_006.jpg photo in the lower left corner is a white plastic bracket. It is free to move about seven degrees in each direction so that once the backplane riser is inserted into its own plugs/slot the far ends of any ISA adapters may be secured and supported properly.
I should also mention that there is a plastic support/stand for the OptiPlex case which lets the Dell GxPro stand on end in a 'tower' configuration. This has the orientation such that any ISA adapters would then be on the "bottom" of the case and the 3.5" floppy would be at the "top". The ventilation holes are not blocked in this configuration.
Great Hierophant wrote:
Ideally I would need three ISA slots with room to grow and the Dell only has two. I have the following devices:
This requirement would probably take the Dell GxPro out of the running. You've hit the nail on the head with the on-board Vibra 16S "SB16". While it does not cost you an ISA slot in this configuration - you lose the ability to use any daughter-cards since there is no way to interface them as with an actual ISA SoundBlaster adapter. With the ability to turn off the Parallel port (IRQ 7) and the COM1: port (IRQ 4) you get all the necessary ISA non-shared IRQs that you can use with only two ISA slots, given that the on-board SB16 gets (IRQ 5) unless you turn if off. You would still have the higher priority COM2: (IRQ 3) available for any modem connections.
Great Hierophant wrote:
If I were to get the Dell, which has a NIC, I could use COM1 for a serial mouse (originally I was thinking of a modem on COM1 and a PS/2 Mouse using IRQ12.)
About a PS/2 mouse versus a serial port mouse for a 'retro' DOS or Win98 system. I know that it's just not a PS/2 to serial port adapter that is necessary. The mouse must be "dual mode" to be smart enough to recognize which type of port it is plugged into to work properly. The other thing is you already have IRQ 12 (it can be turned off) dedicated to a PS/2 port - why not use it? The IRQ 12 has a higher interrupt priority than a serial mouse connected to COM1: (IRQ 4) or COM2: (IRQ 3). Now I know under DOS it depends on the mouse driver - but I think I remember that a Microsoft serial Mouse connected to a PC via a serial-port had a maximum 40 reports/sec at 1200bps, where as the power-up default for a PS/2 port connected mouse was 100 reports/sec. In comparison the default report rate for a USB connected mouse is 125 reports/sec.
Of course, there is no 'best' video card for older games, both DOS and early Windows. I keep a Matrox G450 in the GxPro since it has very good DOS (VESA 3.0) SVGA support and has stable drivers for Win98 and 'server' operating systems. I believe that you wish to keep your options open for either higher-end PCI video adapters for Win9x games or lower-end PCI (or ISA?) video adapters for DOS games. One of the advantages of the Dell OptiPlex case is that you can open the case via two buttons located on the sides and then remove the riser backplane "cage" in about 12 seconds total - once you remove any cables attached to the PCI/ISA adapters. The only screws in the Dell OptiPlex are to secure any adapter cards to the PCI/ISA removable riser; the others screws are on the removable hard drive cage. The two external 5.25" bays have special rails which attach to the any devices (drives/CD-ROMs) so that they slide in and out quickly.
If I ignore my uncertainties about the onboard sound for a moment, then I what I would do is to use the two ISA slots for the LAPC-I and the SCM-15AT. I would then install the Yamaha daughterboard on a PCI card, in this case the Aureal SQ2500. I might loose the Yamaha daughterboard functionality in real-mode DOS, but it was released at the end of that era anyways.
In Windows, I would have four midi devices to choose from, the onboard Sound Blaster, the LAPC-I, the SQ2500, and the SCM. Four IRQs would be needed, IRQ2, IRQ3, IRQ4 and IRQ5. Fortunately, the inclusion of PS/2 ports and an NIC would free me from using a serial mouse or a modem. Naturally, I would have to disable the SQ2500's sound blaster emulation while allowing it to continue to emulate a midi interface. Also, as there is no midi/gameport in the GXPro, I would be stuck with the SQ2500's.
My uncertainties about the onboard sound, which uses the Vibra 16S chip, are many.
I would then install the Yamaha daughterboard on a PCI card, in this case the Aureal SQ2500. I might loose the Yamaha daughterboard functionality in real-mode DOS, but it was released at the end of that era anyways.
I had no idea that a PCI audio card could take the ISA-era Yamaha daughterboard...
You might have another MIDI option under Win98SE with an MMX capable CPU. The Yamaha Soft Synthesizer S-YXG50. Even though it is no longer sold or supported by Yamaha - you can find copies/keys to <ahem> download. It provides a different MIDI sound than the default Microsoft licenced Roland GM/GS(R) Wavetable Synth included with WinXP. Here are the requirements:
1The Yamaha SoftSynthesizer S-YXG50 2version 4.23.14 WDM 3 4CPU: 166MHz Pentium Processor with MMX (TM) Technology or greater 5OS: Windows98SE/ Windows 2000 Professional/ Windows XP 6RAM: More than 32MB 7Sound Processing: 16-bit stereo playback 8Codec Driver: WDM driver is required
Attached to this post should be a small screen-shot of the setup screen...
Great Hierophant wrote:
My uncertainties about the onboard sound, which uses the Vibra 16S chip, are many.
Out of my league here. I would not know what Creative Labs sacrificed in compressing all of the SB16 to a single VLSI chip - the Vibra 16S. I understand there were quite a few variations of the Vibra chip used in cost-reduced (OEM) sound cards and (OEM) motherboard applications.
Using the GxPro A10 BIOS you could disable COM2:, COM1:, the Vibra 16S, Parallel port and have the ISA non-shared IRQ3, IRQ4, IRQ5, IRQ7 free in addition to the cascaded IRQ2/IRQ9 available for use. However, I have only seen ISA video adapters and ISA token-ring adapters use IRQ2/IRQ9. On the other hand, if an ISA adapter is not using the IRQ resouce, it can be available as a shared PCI IRQ under Win98SE.
I've gone through your previous posts and found the following from 2005-3-18.
If I had the cash, I would go on a buying spree to get a few old PCs to play the old games as they were meant to be played. I wo […] Show full quote
If I had the cash, I would go on a buying spree to get a few old PCs to play the old games as they were meant to be played. I would buy three or four PCs with the idea of achieving maximum compatibility. I would buy my PCs with the idea of capturing a "snapshot" of PC performance at a certain time. But what would I buy and what would I stock them with?
PC#1 - IBM PC 5150
Inside I would populate this PC with a 20MB MFM hard drive and a floppy/hard disk drive controller, a Hercules Monochrome Graphics card and a Color Graphics Adapter, and set it up for dual monitor action (preferably an IBM 5151 and a IBM 5153.) The Hercules Card with its Monochrome [and Printer] Display Adapter support will be welcome for games that support multiple display adapters. I think a 360KB 5.25" and a 720KB 3.5" (if I can find one) half height disk drives will do nicely. The fourth and fifth slots will be used for a Serial + Parallel Card and a Game Port card. Dos should be no better than 3.3. This is for the booters and CGA games only. 256KB on the motherboard if you can get it, perhaps more on a memory card.
PC#2 - IBM PS/2 Model 40
This computer comes with a 386SX @20MHz, 2MB of RAM (upgradeable with PS/2 SIMMs) VGA on the motherboard and five 16-bit ISA slots. (It is the last machine released by IBM with ISA slots, everything over the 40 uses MCA, which isn't gaming friendly at all.) 80 or 40 MB hard drive likely, 1.44MB floppy, 101 Enhanced Keyboard, room for a 1.2 MB Floppy and a Quad Speed CD-ROM drive. This is good for the EGA and ealier VGA games, but I wouldn't run Doom on it. Use Dos 5.0 for good results. This is a fun machine, I would suggest a Sound Blaster Pro, a Gravis Ultrasound and a Roland LAPC-1.
The above two systems are, unfortunately, not entirely free of hassles as they are IBM machines. I may replace the IBM PC with a Tandy 1000. The former will redefine your idea of slowness. The latter can be a pain to upgrade and the processor may seem too slow for some games that are supposed to run on it. But they use IBM hardware and logically must be the best thing around in PC compatibility. The CGA will deal with those booters and DOS games that tweak it. The VGA adapter built into the early PS/2 models will be the guide for future software using it. It should allow EGA and MCGA games to work without flaw, being only the combination of those two standards. This is the swiss army knife of PC gaming. (IBM's EGA cards are difficult to find upgraded to 256KB and I have never encountered IBM's ISA VGA card, the PS/2 Display Adapter, in the wild.) If it doesn't work on IBM hardware, it has to right to work at all.
PC#3 - Generic, Build-it-yourself PC
This is for Doom and the latest and last DOS games. It should have Dos 6.22 and Win 3.11. 32-64MB of memory. For sound cards I suggest a SCC-1 and a Sound Blaster AWE. 600MB-1GB hard drive is good. A 20X CD-ROM will do. Pentium processor at 200MHz. VESA compliant 2D card and 3Dfx Voodoo 1 for those few games that support 3D acceleration. Use MoSlo for those games without speed limiters (the 200MHz speed gives integral reduction ratios.) LAN/Modem perhaps. Could also be used for Windows 95 games that don't like faster machines or XP, but get a 2GB hard drive.
Thinking before acting is necessary to make actions meaningful, barring action based on intuition, but over a year has passed since then.
A year you could have been playing the games you wish to play. On slightly, very slighty, lacking hardware perhaps (maybe you would have to share an IRQ), but you would have a great time actually playing.
I hope you don't take my straightforwardness as an insult, but perhaps it spurs you on.
Thinking before acting is necessary to make actions meaningful, barring action based on intuition, but over a year has passed since then.
A year you could have been playing the games you wish to play. On slightly, very slighty, lacking hardware perhaps (maybe you would have to share an IRQ), but you would have a great time actually playing.
I hope you don't take my straightforwardness as an insult, but perhaps it spurs you on.
DOSBox has improved to the point where I really don't need very old rigs. Now I am focusing on #3 on that list, which is most elusive.
I had no idea that a PCI audio card could take the ISA-era Yamaha daughterboard...
The daughterboard uses the waveblaster connector and its accompanying specifications. Many PCI cards supported them, even after Creative dropped support because there are some excellent, professional quality daughterboards. Its just a modified midi interface.
Using the GxPro A10 BIOS you could disable COM2:, COM1:, the Vibra 16S, Parallel port and have the ISA non-shared IRQ3, IRQ4, IRQ5, IRQ7 free in addition to the cascaded IRQ2/IRQ9 available for use. However, I have only seen ISA video adapters and ISA token-ring adapters use IRQ2/IRQ9. On the other hand, if an ISA adapter is not using the IRQ resouce, it can be available as a shared PCI IRQ under Win98SE.
Roland MPU-401 midi interfaces default to IRQ2 and some games won't work unless it is set to the default specs.
5u3 has an ET6000, but this card shows strange behaviour when he runs scene demos. He swaps it with an isa card in such cases.
If scene demos have problems, then there is always the possibility games can show the same problems. Not only for the fact many sceners ended up in the game industry.
I hope he can perhaps talk a bit about this issue.
Yeah, my ET6000 displays garbage when some scene demos try out funky stuff like non-spec lowres videomodes. It also hiccups with certain ways of smooth scrolling (this IS used in many games).
I've tried out several ET6000-based cards (all of them with MDRAM), and they all showed the same behaviour. Nevertheless I'm not entirely sure if this is the fault of the cards, because I didn't bother to test them in another rig. 😦
The strongest argument for the ET6000 is the VESA 2.0 BIOS implementation, which works perfectly, and the blazing fast framebuffer. These are the reasons why I use it in my 486.
It also has some drawbacks: the rather weak 170 MHz RAMDAC, and simple 2D acceleration. For Windows apps there are better cards.
For Great Hierophant, I have a board recommendation: ASUS TX97-XE
I've used this for a long time and found it to be one fo the best Socket7 boards ever.
- Supports CPUs from P75 up to K6-III
- 4 ISA and 4 PCI slots (one shared)
- ATX form factor
- 2 SDRAM DIMM and 4 PS/2 (EDO) SIMM slots
- Harddrive autodetection, up to 32GB (128GB with patched BIOS)
- Optional SB Vibra16C onboard audio
- Temperature, voltage and fan monitoring
Since this board sold quite well, it shouldn't be hard to find a cheap one these days.
For Great Hierophant, I have a board recommendation: ASUS TX97-XE
I've used this for a long time and found it to be one fo the b […] Show full quote
For Great Hierophant, I have a board recommendation: ASUS TX97-XE
I've used this for a long time and found it to be one fo the best Socket7 boards ever.
- Supports CPUs from P75 up to K6-III
- 4 ISA and 4 PCI slots (one shared)
- ATX form factor
- 2 SDRAM DIMM and 4 PS/2 (EDO) SIMM slots
- Harddrive autodetection, up to 32GB (128GB with patched BIOS)
- Optional SB Vibra16C onboard audio
- Temperature, voltage and fan monitoring
Since this board sold quite well, it shouldn't be hard to find a cheap one these days.
Ah, I love reading threads like these, gets me thinking again.
I'm with GH wanting a 1 old rig solves all MY games solution, but I'm starting to see that 5u3 and the multi-pc route might be the only way to go.
I'm really fascinated with the physical slow down on that Optiplex. I tried all the software slowdowns on the rig in my sig to try to get WC1 to play and it just wasn't gonna happen 🙁 Either the vid would work, the sound wouldn't, or vice versa, it was a mess 🙁
Do you guys think w/ the physical slow down to 8mhz-12mhz that WC1 might be playable on that Opti? The freeing up of 2 slots from the NIC and SB16 is pretty sweet as well (for my application)
(Guess it's good I only spent $14.62 on my old rig 😀 Won't feel so bad spending the cash for another one)
Dell Optiplex Gxpro: Built solely so I could re-live my SB16 days properly with newly acquired sound pieces: MT-32, SCB-55, and DB50xg 😀
I'm really fascinated with the physical slow down on that Optiplex. I tried all the software slowdowns on the rig in my sig to try to get WC1 to play and it just wasn't gonna happen Sad Either the vid would work, the sound wouldn't, or vice versa, it was a mess Sad
It should play very well at that particular speed, which was the minimum recommended speed back in the day. Of course, a Pentium Pro or Pentium II is much faster than a 386 at the same speeds.
