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Multimedia SuperTandy TL/2

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Reply 20 of 42, by Cloudschatze

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carlostex wrote:

System is eating up too much conventional memory. I have 0 experience with Tandy machines. Is this a Tandy thing?

It's more a result of the TL/2 being an "XT-class" system, and consequently lacking any extended memory (HMA) into which DOS could otherwise be loaded. Memory-wise, most real-mode games work well with a "magic" combination of ~575K conventional and 2MB EMS though, so there's not much that won't run on this system, as configured.

That said, your question leaves me pondering something interesting...

Reply 21 of 42, by carlostex

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Cloudschatze wrote:

It's more a result of the TL/2 being an "XT-class" system, and consequently lacking any extended memory (HMA) into which DOS could otherwise be loaded. Memory-wise, most real-mode games work well with a "magic" combination of ~575K conventional and 2MB EMS though, so there's not much that won't run on this system, as configured.

XT? I thought the TL/2 an TL/3's had 286 CPU's. Am i missing something?

Cloudschatze wrote:

That said, your question leaves me pondering something interesting...

Spill the beans then!

Reply 22 of 42, by Anonymous Coward

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It should be possible to get almost as much free conventional memory on your Tandy as a 286 PC if you make extensive use of UMBs. On my XT, with most of my drivers loaded (I think excluding the CD-ROM) I can get 618kb free. But I use DR-DOS and I am loading most of the DOS kernel UMB.

"Will the highways on the internets become more few?" -Gee Dubya
V'Ger XT|Upgraded AT|Ultimate 386|Super VL/EISA 486|SMP VL/EISA Pentium

Reply 23 of 42, by Cloudschatze

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carlostex wrote:

XT? I thought the TL/2 an TL/3's had 286 CPU's. Am i missing something?

They do have 286s, but much of the system architecture, including the use of 8-bit expansion slots, is XT carryover. Now, with those limitations in mind, the capabilities of this particular build should suddenly be all-the-more impressive, right? 😎

Spill the beans then!

Turns out it's (practically) a dead-end, but for a minute, extended memory seemed like a possibility.

Anonymous Coward wrote:

It should be possible to get almost as much free conventional memory on your Tandy as a 286 PC if you make extensive use of UMBs.

Since I like using both EMS and UMBs, I'm limited to a scant 48K of upper memory, of which 43K is already in use. It's okay though, really - I'm not looking to play Falcon 3.0 or Betrayal at Krondor on this system... 😀

Reply 24 of 42, by carlostex

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Cloudschatze wrote:

They do have 286s, but much of the system architecture, including the use of 8-bit expansion slots, is XT carryover. Now, with those limitations in mind, the capabilities of this particular build should suddenly be all-the-more impressive, right? 😎

OK its a Tandy thing then. I can imagine that in the RLX and the RSX a 16bit bus is present. And yes, the build is impressive indeed, and i only realized now you have a CPU accelerator card in there. I love that external CD-ROM. Too bad you had to remove the 5.25 floppy drive.

All that said i would LOVE to own a Tandy 1000, but they sell for way too much on eBay plus shipping costs. Then there's the question of which Tandy to get. Then i would get to get a voltage step down converter, and couldn't get one without a monitor too. Pretty much impossible.

Reply 25 of 42, by Anonymous Coward

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I checked my notes, and it appears I was using the kingston control software with my IBM CPUs. I recommend you try it out. A 64MHz Tandy would be super cool.

"Will the highways on the internets become more few?" -Gee Dubya
V'Ger XT|Upgraded AT|Ultimate 386|Super VL/EISA 486|SMP VL/EISA Pentium

Reply 26 of 42, by Great Hierophant

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Almost all Tandy 1000s, including his, cannot use extended memory. No extended memory, no High Memory Area, which means that the bulk of DOS must reside in conventional memory.

http://nerdlypleasures.blogspot.com/ - Nerdly Pleasures - My Retro Gaming, Computing & Tech Blog

Reply 27 of 42, by Anonymous Coward

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Most of DOS can be loaded into UMB if you have UMBs available and the right software. However, CloudSchatze has opted to use most of his UMBs for EMS.

"Will the highways on the internets become more few?" -Gee Dubya
V'Ger XT|Upgraded AT|Ultimate 386|Super VL/EISA 486|SMP VL/EISA Pentium

Reply 28 of 42, by Thallanor

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I understand that this is a really old thread, but I've finally been able to retrieve my Tandy 1000 TL/2 from my parents place and have been sketching out some ideas about what I would like to do with it.

It has been ages since I regularly used SCSI. Because you mentioned your SCSI card does not have BIOS support for floptical drives, are you able to boot from floptical or not? I suppose that the instances that I would boot from floppy are rare and I could make do when those instances occurred, but it would be nice to have a solution that "just works."

Awesome build! 😀

Reply 29 of 42, by Thallanor

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Anonymous Coward wrote:

I have four of these Teac FDD to SCSI adapters that supposedly allow any density floppy drive to work on the SCSI bus, but I ended up not bothering due to the high memory requirements to get everything going. I ended up just using a multi-I/O controller (without BIOS support) and a real 1.44 meg floppy drive with a utility called "2M" for 1.44meg floppy support. The TSR uses just a few KB and can be loaded/unloaded when needed.

Do you have details on these Teac FDD to SCSI adapters? Without BIOS support on your multi-I/O controller, what are the ramifications? I am looking to see what my options are to replace the 40 MB HDD and upgrade the floppy drive while at it. 😀 My initial idea was a Lo-tech IDE-to-CF card but that wouldn't help me with the FDD, so my second thought was going SCSI, and using that for FDD. I've seen a couple semi-affordable SCSI flopticals, but ideally, I'd like a Gotek in there. So I'm curious if either the Teac adapter would work or if your multi-I/O card would take the Gotek (I don't see why not). Otherwise, I could go with Gotek and fiddle with Tandy's cable, but even then, I'd be limited to 720K on the Gotek.

Lots of great ideas here and a wealth of information. 😀

Reply 30 of 42, by Anonymous Coward

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If you use the 2M floppy utility, one of the main limitations is the inability to boot from 1.44MB media. The TSR also uses a few KB of conventional memory. I believe you can load or unload it as needed.
To be honest, I haven't really played much with the TEAC SCSI adapter, but a PDF file for it exists. It has a lot of jumpers, and I believe it can handle just about any format drive. I doubt this drive would be bootable either, and the driver should require quite a bit of memory.

BTW, the software utility to use with IBM chips should be the one from Evergreen, NOT kingston.

"Will the highways on the internets become more few?" -Gee Dubya
V'Ger XT|Upgraded AT|Ultimate 386|Super VL/EISA 486|SMP VL/EISA Pentium

Reply 31 of 42, by Thallanor

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Anonymous Coward wrote:

If you use the 2M floppy utility, one of the main limitations is the inability to boot from 1.44MB media. The TSR also uses a few KB of conventional memory. I believe you can load or unload it as needed.
To be honest, I haven't really played much with the TEAC SCSI adapter, but a PDF file for it exists. It has a lot of jumpers, and I believe it can handle just about any format drive. I doubt this drive would be bootable either, and the driver should require quite a bit of memory.
BTW, the software utility to use with IBM chips should be the one from Evergreen, NOT kingston.

Cool. I'll poke around and see if I can find a multi-I/O controller w/ a floppy controller, either on eBay or Amibay. I also need one for my 486 build w/ a serial port because my I do not have the backplane connectors for my PC Chips motherboard and have no idea what the pinout is. 🙁 I've tried three different backplane connectors, and nothing. A friend suggested he might be able to figure out the pinouts, I presume with a meter or some other instrument, but I'm thinking a multi-I/O card is my best bet. (Or a new motherboard, which is actually preferred.) For the Tandy 1000 TL/2 though, I'll see what I can find and I'll see how it works with that utility. 😀 I do not mind if I have to connect my old 720K floppy drive for the once-in-a-blue-moon that I would need to boot off of the floppy drive. If the TEAC SCSI adapter is that much work and generally has the same results, I'd prefer keeping it simple.

I _wish_ I had one of those processor upgrades for my TL/2. I remember seeing those in Computer Shopper back in the day and wanting those badly. Not just for the TL/2 but for a couple other computers I've had over the years.

Thanks so much for your help and advice. I really appreciate it.

Reply 32 of 42, by Cloudschatze

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Thallanor wrote:

Because you mentioned your SCSI card does not have BIOS support for floptical drives, are you able to boot from floptical or not?

Back in early 2014, I swapped the Trantor SCSI adapter for a Rancho RT1000B, which does have (bootable) BIOS support for the Floptical drive.

Reply 33 of 42, by Thallanor

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Cloudschatze wrote:

Back in early 2014, I swapped the Trantor SCSI adapter for a Rancho RT1000B, which does have (bootable) BIOS support for the Floptical drive.

Excellent! (Apart from the difficulty I had trying to find used Ranchos when I first read this thread.) I'm starting to get some options now for my build. Thanks for getting back to me!

Reply 34 of 42, by infiniteclouds

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Cloudschatze wrote:

Memory-wise, most real-mode games work well with a "magic" combination of ~575K conventional and 2MB EMS though, so there's not much that won't run on this system, as configured.

That said, your question leaves me pondering something interesting...

So although you're using that Acculogic board with 16MB of RAM are you saying that you only use an additional 2MB over the motherboard? In other words, could you pull off the same memory config with one of the new lowtech 2MB ISA cards?

Reply 35 of 42, by Cloudschatze

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infiniteclouds wrote:

In other words, could you pull off the same memory config with one of the new lowtech 2MB ISA cards?

Not unless the design of the 2MB Lo-tech board has changed significantly since 2014; it being unable to concurrently support both EMS paging and UMBs. My understanding is that it can be used to provide either a full 2MB of EMS, or allow for up to 64KB of UMBs (via the page frame space), but not a combination of the two.

Reply 36 of 42, by infiniteclouds

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Damn -- that's a shame. Still, what portion of that RAM board are you actually using -- between UMBs and EMS? With how rare Tandy compatible EMS boards boards are I guess we will have to hope for improvements to these Lowtec designs.

Reply 37 of 42, by gdjacobs

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Cloudschatze wrote:

Not unless the design of the 2MB Lo-tech board has changed significantly since 2014; it being unable to concurrently support both EMS paging and UMBs. My understanding is that it can be used to provide either a full 2MB of EMS, or allow for up to 64KB of UMBs (via the page frame space), but not a combination of the two.

Is it compatible with UMB emulation by EMS?

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Reply 38 of 42, by Cloudschatze

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infiniteclouds wrote:

Still, what portion of that RAM board are you actually using -- between UMBs and EMS?

Basically just 43KB + whatever amount of EMS memory an application decides it wants/needs up to the up to the 16MB mark. I've yet to come across a gaming-related EMS requirement in excess of 2MB, for what it's worth.

gdjacobs wrote:

Is it compatible with UMB emulation by EMS?

Not as far as I'm aware. Here is some relevant discussion from several years ago:
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?432 … 2-and-HIMEM-SYS

Reply 39 of 42, by gdjacobs

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Actually, you mention in that thread using QRAM to emulate UMBs. That actually answers my question. 😀

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