VOGONS


Socket 7 goodness

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First post, by d1stortion

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Saw this interesting looking rig and decided to pick it up, since the board sounded like quality. Specs when I bought it were:

Intel Pentium 200 MMX
Gigabyte GA-586TX3 (512 KB L2 cache)
128 MB PC100 SDRAM
ATi 3D Rage II+DVD 4 MB
Ensoniq AudioPCI ES1370
Some Wifi PCI card
Maxtor 6 GB HDD
NEC 3.5" floppy
LG 48x CD-ROM

Made some changes to it of course... replaced the Ensoniq card with an AWE64 CT4520 and installed a Diamond Monster 3D instead of the Wifi card. For the graphics card I think a Matrox Millennium would have a higher coolness factor, but the Rage does kinda fit the bill for a "1997 budget" rig... the hardware is generally period correct if it weren't for the fast CD-ROM and the SDRAM. For now I installed 98 SE, purely for convenience.

Some general insights:

- First thing I noticed is that the memory is only being detected as 32 MB, which could be actually a good thing considering that the chipset can't cache more than 64 MB. Still I'd rather have 64 MB... maybe I'll try other SDRAMs, or look for EDO if the prices aren't insane.

- I installed the newest 2.420 drivers for the Rage card. When trying to access the settings from Device Manager all I get is a blank tab, and in diagnostics I get "Failed to initialize the Diagnostics Module". No clue what this is all about.

2D performance for the card seems good, at least 1024x768 is sharp and fast. Not much experience with DOS compatibility but all games worked so far. 3D of course is not so great as expected. It's not as hilariously bad as some other chips but bad enough to call the card useless for 3D.

- AIDA64 doesn't like this machine at all. Before installing the drivers most things actually worked, save for some non-functioning benchmarks and no Rage information. After I installed the video drivers things like SPD, L2 cache, Voodoo information etc simply aren't shown anymore. I use this fine on a 440BX rig, so unless it's an issue with the newest versions I would say that a Pentium II/III system is minimum to use this utility.

- 98 SE on 32 MB is workable, but of course it does swap a lot.

- Not really related to this build, but I hate how I always have to adjust the monitor when a game is using some other resolution etc. I'm using a 15" LCD... even though I could hook my retro PCs up to a modern LCD with a better panel I think that some low resolutions look better when upscaled on a small screen compared to a big LCD, and there are no black borders. Additionally my newer LCD can't handle 320x200 properly, it doesn't stretch it to 4:3... Eventually I will switch to a good CRT.

- This PC has a USB bracket with two USB slots. It works just fine with a USB mouse, but a USB flash drive I couldn't get to work even with NUSB. Actually I'm glad mine still works, because when I plugged it in it started to get insanely hot instead of being detected, plus the mouse stopped working 🙄 I have a USB PCI card somewhere though, so I'll probably just install that sometime later.

- Not sure yet if I'll look for a 233 MMX or attempt overclocking, or even both. Of course slower CPUs would be an option as well. I don't think I was able to get anywhere near DX2-66 performance out of this by disabling caches, with L1+L2 it must have been way below that (didn't benchmark it)...

- The Maxtor drive has that nice high pitched sound 🤣 I really want to just put a CF in there, but with effectively 64 MB RAM max probably not the best idea when disabling swap file. Probably going to stick to HDDs for this build.

- Default gamma on the Voodoo is UGLY. What were they thinking with this. I set it to about 1.0 or so and even then the colors look more washed out than on Voodoo3-5.

Windows Games/Benchmarks:

- 3DMark99 MAX was the first I attempted and all it gives me on the Voodoo is a flickering mess. I instantly thought the card is broken. It also does give a swapping warning about having only 32 megs, but the benchmark runs as expected on the Rage. Absolutely no clue on this. Default DX6.1 from 98 SE is installed so that can't be the problem.

- Final Reality ran as expected and gave the following scores:

Voodoo:
2D image processing: 1.92 RM
3D performance: 2.64 RM
Bus transfer rate: 2.61 RM
Overall: 2.42 RM

Rage:
2D image processing: 1.92 RM
3D performance: 1.35 RM
Bus transfer rate: 2.14 RM
Overall: 1.64 RM

- Turok 1.01 demo: Game is playable in Glide. TMARK gave 40.1 FPS on Glide and 33.8 on D3D (both Voodoo). Ignore V-Blanks on, all options checked for D3D, 640x480. Tomshardware had the exact same benchmark on the same CPU and had a big 10 FPS more in Glide... no idea if he had more cache, more memory or if the planetary aligment was just more suitable on that day. Using newest reference drivers.

D3D feels very bad in this game. The framerate difference in benchmarks doesn't do it justice. It has these bouts where it seems to run 10 fps and in other areas it runs way too fast while Glide keeps a consistent framerate (and looks correct, but this is expected and documented in the tomshardware article). I then set D3D to 60Hz (normally have all set to 75Hz, since it's what my monitor is capable of) and it Turok seemed to run a bit better in that mode, but still I don't get how anyone could play this in D3D back then, seeing how even on Voodoo it doesn't look or run correctly...

Furthermore, the demo is a completely bugged mess. When starting it after booting I can't choose what accelerator to run this on. When I run some other game that accesses multiple 3D accelerators, and run Turok after that suddenly all the choices are displayed. Plus sometimes when benchmarking the sound simply disappears after a few seconds. Etc, etc...

- Turok 2 1.01 demo: Gives a "CreateFileMapping" error when having played other stuff before it, so needs restart... not really playable on this rig. Really wonder if memory subsystem, CPU or 3D card is the biggest bottleneck here. T2MARK scored 25.4 FPS in Glide, mipmapping and bilinear filtering on, other options off. Doesn't seem horrible, but of course the game always dips sub-20 and even sub-15. Awesome how you have to kill the benchmark via task manager btw...

- Half-Life Uplink: very sluggish on 3dfx MiniGL. Maybe barely playable with a lot of good will, but why would I sit through that... 🤣 again I can't really select a device for D3D/OGL, but when I tried to run OGL it said that the card (i.e. Rage) doesn't support it. I tried D3D just for kicks, on 640x480 it simply hangs at the loading screen (or loads for 10 hours, who knows, I restarted the PC after one minute). On 400x300 it runs with about 5 FPS... that dithering is a true sight to behold 🤣

- Expendable demo: unplayable slideshow, I don't know why this particular one is so bad. Didn't feel like fiddling with the countless settings, but low detail didn't do much. About 3 FPS with Rage and 6 with Voodoo (estimated).

- Age of Empires demo: Surprisingly sluggish, has to swap a lot when drawing the cursor over the map, plus when selecting a unit for the first time the MIDI music stutters for a fraction of a second... seems like a 32 meg system is a bad call for this.

- Forsaken demo: overall well playable. With VSync off I get 80-90 FPS when flying around and about 40 when shooting stuff. With VSync on it's 60 when flying around and 20 when shooting, so a huge performance drop right there...

DOS games/benchmarks:
- Speedsys 4.78 (run from DOS): 151.53 CPU score, L1 369.18 MB/s, L2 186.17 MB/s, memory throughput 124.67 MB/s.

- Tomb Raider 3dfx demo: At first this gave me an out of range error with outputting 76.2 Hz (my LCD is 75 Hz max), but I could fix it with copying glide2x.ovl into the folder. Game runs fine as expected, but one time I had a crazy error where the LCD displayed another out of range error with ludicrous values after playing Turok before.

- Descent shareware: Now this is one game that I was quite interested in trying. It's just slightly too fast when no stuff is going on... from that I would deduct that that something like a P133 is the perfect rig for this game. I also found out how the 3dfx patch doesn't support a mouse for input, so that's quite a waste.

- PCPBENCH (run from DOS): 24.2 FPS. I recall when I ran this on my Pentium III it would display weird stripes etc on the LCD, on this system all works as it should...

- 3DBENCH2 1.0c (run from DOS): 120.4 FPS.

Last edited by d1stortion on 2013-11-15, 01:55. Edited 4 times in total.

Reply 1 of 32, by Mau1wurf1977

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Very nice!

I'll write some more later, but that board is one of the few I know that are ATX AND Intel chipset.

Regarding slowing down with Cache.

If you disable, both, L1 and L2 you will have the equivalent of a 386DX.

If you turn L2 on, but leave L1 off, you will have a Fast 486DX (40 MHz is my guess) or slow DX2. This is because you are limited to 66 MHz FSB. On a Super Socket 7 board with 100 MHz FSB and a 233MMX you can get very close to DX2-66 performance.

3DBENCH2 1.0c: 120.4 FPS

That seems a bit slow. A SS7 system would get around 170 but I've never had a Intel chipset board to do more tests. Could also be the PCI graphics card vs. AGP?

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Reply 2 of 32, by d1stortion

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Well, it does have an ATX power connector, but it's still AT form factor... since I can't simply install it in an ATX case I don't see much purpose in being able to use an ATX PSU.

I noticed how it says P100 on a sticker on the bottom of the case. The middle button and LED were actually labeled Turbo, but the previous owner erased that, so that's what I call a radical upgrade 🤣 and on the front it actually had a shameless Arctic Cooling decal which of course I removed. This needs a Pentium MMX decal or something 😀

So far I wasn't able to find any overclocking options in the BIOS... might need an update?

Last edited by d1stortion on 2014-05-26, 02:11. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 3 of 32, by Mau1wurf1977

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Of course!

My brain saw GA586ATX for the model number 😵

GB is very good with having the latest BIOS on their website. Plus manual, drivers, CPU support...

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Reply 4 of 32, by d1stortion

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http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/review-socket-7-pci-motherboards,46-13.html wrote:

Performance is okay, but I can't understand why Gigabyte does not back bus clock speeds beyond 66 MHz.

Just how lame is that 😒 but OK, I think with a 200MMX I have a solid basis for a lot of games. The ones I've listed that run bad I've obviously just tried for kicks and there is no reason why I couldn't play them on my BX rig.

Reply 5 of 32, by Nahkri

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Try with a stick of 64mb sdram,my tx board works fine with 64mb,u can also get latest bios version,maybe it will fix memory limitation.
In order to get usb working corectly i had to change the order of the wires as shown here http://www.usbman.com/Guides/BelkinMotherboar … le_assembly.htm
Then i used version 3.3 of nusb http://www.technical-assistance.co.uk/kb/win9 … age-drivers.php
In order to get rid of 3dmark 99 flickering on the voodoo,u need to change the frame buffer settings from single to double.
Imo windows 95 osr2 is a better option for this build,at least it will run better with 32 mb of ram.

Reply 8 of 32, by keropi

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welcome to the p1/mmx dark side d1stortion!
I got a p200mmx my self, it's great for DOS games 😀 are you running DOS stuff from windows? or pure DOS? Personally I would ditch the Ati vga as well unless it's a VESA speed beast or something...
When you find ram that works then 98SE is a better choice, but I'm sure you know that 🤣

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Reply 9 of 32, by d1stortion

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Nahkri wrote:
d1stortion wrote:

I couldn't change frame buffer to double, it's grayed out.

U need to register 3dmark 99 in order to be able to do that.

Ah... at least good to know that nothing is wrong with the card. I seriously thought the TMU memory was toast at first.

keropi wrote:

welcome to the p1/mmx dark side d1stortion!
I got a p200mmx my self, it's great for DOS games 😀 are you running DOS stuff from windows? or pure DOS? Personally I would ditch the Ati vga as well unless it's a VESA speed beast or something...
When you find ram that works then 98SE is a better choice, but I'm sure you know that 🤣

I ran the games from Windows and benchmarks from DOS since as silly as it sounds, I don't have a PS/2 or serial mouse at the moment. I use a generic logitech USB mouse which I tried on a PS/2 adapter on my Pentium III, it didn't work in DOS... it doesn't seem to support the PS/2 protocol. "Legacy USB" etc didn't do anything. Well thinking about it I may have some old mechanical mouse somewhere but it's been years since I've used one, way too accustomed to optical mice...

About the VESA thing, to not make another post in the other thread, what am I supposed to do with vesatest? I ran it and it spewed out some results but it doesn't seem to save them in a text file or anything. I hope you're not supposed to write it all down by hand? 🤣

Did anyone ever try Half-Life on a MMX+Voodoo1? I'm a bit surprised by how bad this performs. With simpler scenes (looking at walls, being in hallways etc) it's smooth but as soon as I'm looking at complex scenes it's a slideshow. Can't hear much of the HDD at all during the game, so it could be a texture trashing issue w/ the 2 MB texture memory?

Reply 10 of 32, by keropi

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vesatest can write to a txt with this command: "vesatest >results.txt" , basically you use the DOS function to dump the screen to a file....
I also believe your halflife troubles are because of the 32MB main ram currently installed...
you *need* to get some logitech ps2 optical mouse or that MS intellinmouse that has both usb+ps2 protocols 😀

When I was testing vgas - some years back - to find the fastest for my setup I used a combo of programs to get an idea about their speed: speedsys mb/s rating, 3dbench , pcpbench and Duke3d, I just typed "DNRATE" on E1M1 without moving and saw where the framerate stabilized on both 320x200 and 640x480 resolutions.
For compatibility I tested with commmader keen 4 (scrolling) , jazz jackrabbit (modex) and dangerous dave risky rescue (scrolling again). VESA support without a TSR was a must, this can be easily found out with a utility like vesa test... my personal favor was and is the Riva128(zx) 😉

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Reply 11 of 32, by vetz

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First off, welcome to the Socket 7 world! That is a great board to start with. I love the Asus and Gigabyte Socket 7 boards. Rock solid and very good build quality. The manual and other documentation is also easy accessible on the internet. I would also expect you to find loads of info on Google Groups if you need.

d1stortion wrote:

Did anyone ever try Half-Life on a MMX+Voodoo1? I'm a bit surprised by how bad this performs. With simpler scenes (looking at walls, being in hallways etc) it's smooth but as soon as I'm looking at complex scenes it's a slideshow. Can't hear much of the HDD at all during the game, so it could be a texture trashing issue w/ the 2 MB texture memory?

I used to play it on my Compaq when it had a 166MMX CPU and a single Voodoo 2 12MB. It was pretty bad, but I still played through the singleplayer game! I even played Counter-Strike and Team Fortress in multiplayer, but I remembered I stopped after a while since I lost my temper due to bad frame-rates so many times.

Bad LCD monitors.. oh the horrors. Good 4:3 LCD monitors are getting hard to come by, but I managed to find a series from Samsung from 2006-2007 which have low response times and good specs while also handling basically everything that is thrown at it! Samsung 940 (19inch) is my monitor of choice (along with its bigger brother the 204B). I also have a Samsung 913 (2005 vintage), but that monitor is WAY more picky about resolutions and Hz. Later CRT monitors I've also experienced to be somewhat picky with some resolutions and Hz.

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Reply 12 of 32, by d1stortion

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Yeah Socket 7 is awesome. Some DOS games just feel more at home on this than on 2000 hardware. The beige case is great for when I want to have the sense of playing on something vintage, even though it's not the prettiest by any means.

The LCD I don't think is actually bad. It's an Eizo L365 from 2002. No problems with ghosting and the scaling isn't too bad either. The problem IMO is more with VGA not being "Plug'n'Play" at all in any way, shape or form. The auto button often doesn't cut it, usually I have to fiddle with clock, phase etc to get a perfect result for a given resolution/game/card... I don't think any of this is different on a CRT though, although of course a CRT would be superior in most other ways. As for better LCDs, I think all the good models are rare and kind of pricey. Cheaper to go CRT at this point. What a waste that they kept making this 1280x1024 nonsense all those years...

Just ran Speedsys 4.78 w/ caches disabled: got a CPU score of 13.89. DX-33 to DX2-40 range? With L2 on I get 36.39 which comes close to a 5x86-133. Now that I think about it, I really shouldn't be this using this version since it's MMX aware... no wonder the results are skewed, when I tried Descent in Windows w/ both caches disabled it wasn't even fast enough to pass the MIDI data properly. When I ran the game in DOS it freezed with an "HMI Driver Not Found" error.

Reply 13 of 32, by keropi

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@vetz
I use a 931BF on my retroPC and the amiga1200, it even handles 50hz DVI-D screens on the amiga generated from an indivision mk2 (hdmi from the amiga -> hdmi-dvi cable ->monitor ) , didn't notice anything strange on the PC side yet...

back on the thread, I just tried Half Life with the riva128zx... it is slow. D3D performs better on the riva. Unplayable for me... IIRC I had tried it with a v2 too, it was an improvement but nothing so good that it would be enjoyable...

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Reply 14 of 32, by d1stortion

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keropi, that screen is 5:4 and unless it has a function to display 4:3 letterboxed you will get a jolted image. Here are two comparison pics I once made, look closely at circular shapes:

http://tinypic.com/r/m7bd6s/5
http://tinypic.com/r/33cupl3/5

Since those shots I haven't touched any 5:4 screen with a ten-foot pole, having used them for years before 😉

Reply 15 of 32, by keropi

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yes it is... but I have nothing better atm :\
I have a couple of 17" flat crts at storage but no way I'll use them soon... infact I have forgotten about the 5:4 stuff until you mentioned it 🤣
personally it doesn't bother me that much, it's a good trade for space...

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Reply 16 of 32, by d1stortion

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Hmm, just hooked up a Roland synth, but was instantly reminded of that BS with DOS games in Windows... port 330 uses the internal GM emulation instead of the gameport MIDI out. SET MIDI=SYNTH:2 MAP:G MODE:0 didn't help me either. Anyone remember what the catch was? There was something with the drivers and disabling MPU-401 emulation I recall, but I just use the standard Windows ones, trying to avoid the bloated CD mess...

Reply 17 of 32, by keropi

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control panel -> multimedia -> midi -> midi output -> make a choice from the list
Does that work for you?

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Reply 19 of 32, by keropi

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ah, I was under the impression it covered both cases when inside windows... 🙁
don't have more experience on the matter, I use a CT2230 that has a jumper to disable the sb16 mou completely... so it's OFF 😈

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