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Pentium 166MMX tower of power

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First post, by badmojo

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I was mucking about with my P166 machine recently and decided to make a thread about it - I built this machine a couple of years ago but didn’t do a thread on it at the time, and I like to have a place to record the changes I make over the years. It's fun (for me) to look back on.

The specs are:

ASUS VX97 motherboard
Pentium 166MMX
32MB RAM
NEC CDR Quad spin CD-ROM
Matrox Millennium 2MB
Sound Blaster 16 (CT2230) + NEC XR385
Roland SCC1
Creative 3D Blaster (Voodoo 2)
Windows 95 with a boot menu to pure DOS

I use this machine for late DOS games like DOOM, Duke3D, etc, and early 3D games like Tomb Raider, Quake, + early Windows 95 games. I’m planning a play through of ‘Comanche: Maximum Overkill’ on it soon too, which runs perfectly at this speed with the Pentium patch installed. The lovely, period correct AT MIDI case I found at the recycle center in the "to be scrapped pile" - I couldn’t believe my eyeballs when I saw it sitting there, it looked virtually brand new. The MHz display was burned out due to an incorrectly wired 4-pin molex on the PSU; it took me months to track down another display of the correct type but it was worth the effort.

The CT2230 is a great sounding card which doesn’t have the hanging note bug, and paired with the XR385 it's a force to be reckoned with. But like all Creative cards it still has its issues with MIDI in some games; Duke3D and Tie Fighter are some examples of games which stutter when FX and MIDI is played simultaneously, and that’s where the Roland SCC1 comes in. It handles most of the MIDI, but I do like to have the XR385 in there for easy comparisons and for those few games which sound better with the Yamaha sound. Along with the XR385 – which I bought cheaply from that dude in China before he ran out – the SCC1 is the only part of this machine I payed for. And wow, did I pay for it! I think it ran me close to 200AUD including postage from the UK, but it came boxed and complete, so I don’t regret it. I have an SC-55 too, but I like the convenience of the internal card. As you can see in the pics below I simply run the SCC1’s output directly into the CT2230’s input and mix it via software accordingly. Based on some reading I’ve been doing lately the SC-55 was significantly more expensive than the SCC1 back in the day, but of course that’s no longer the case. I bought my SC-55 locally for 70 bucks – I guess the SCC1 is simply less common.

The reason I have this bad-boy out of the cupboard at the moment is to both benchmark it for Mau1wurf1977’s project, and to change the VGA card from a Matrox Mystique 220 to a Matrox Millennium. This is a downgrade I know but I was mad for my Millennium as a kid – I bought one circa ’97 when the price had dropped - and wanted one again for nostalgia purposes. As a kid I read about the Millennium's magical ‘WRAM’ which – in my teenage mind – would be the answer to all my frame rate problems. It wasn’t of course, but it was still a nice card, and comparing this one which I picked up recently for $5 - if only I could time travel it back to my teen self - it’s on par with the Mystique in most DOS benchmarks, and actually slightly faster in DOOM. They share the same VGA core I guess.

Here are some random pics of the machine, and of course the lovely SCC1:

Here’s the Mystique:
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Which was replaced by the Millennium with its awesome WRAM!
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Last edited by badmojo on 2014-01-17, 08:54. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 1 of 59, by RacoonRider

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That is a very cool build! Very tidy also, it looks like you approach your computers with care. I think they deserve it 😀

Why don't I see the network adapter here? Over past years transferring files to retro PCs over network has become number one option for me. I even have collected a coaxial network kit consisting of 2 ISA nics, a hub featuring 1 coaxial and 8 RJ-45 ports and a bagfull of cables, connectors, terminators... Should work great with 386-486 PCs.

I know not a thing about Rolands, but the card seems very nice. Was it intended to work in XT?

Once again, awesome build 😀

Reply 2 of 59, by JayCeeBee64

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Nice build badmojo, very nice! I particularly like the AT case - it certainly reminds me of what was available back then.

I also have a P166MMX for my DOS and early Windows 95 games, and after a lot of changes and reconfigurations it finally works and performs to my satisfaction. The specs are here, with some recent changes:

-FPM RAM replaced with EDO (same amount)
-Lite-On CD-ROM replaced with Plextor PX-W2410A CD-RW (less noise, better overall performance)
-Network card was removed (unused as of late, no room to create my own local network)
-New CPU cooler
-Bigger ATX case (better-looking as well)

I'm not surprised the SCC1 was so expensive - this is the first time I've seen a picture of one, complete with original box, manuals and software; I guess I got very lucky when I bought my Yamaha SW60XG for only $35.00 back in 2000.

By the way, what hard drive are you using? I can just barely see it in the 5th picture (the one that shows the inside of the case).

Ooohh, the pain......

Reply 3 of 59, by Mau1wurf1977

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I like the name: Tower of Power 😜

to live up to that name why not use a MMX 233 MHz?

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Reply 4 of 59, by retrofanatic

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Awesome build!

Does your turbo button function? If so, does it work "on the fly" or do you have to have your system off to switch it on or off? Is there a Turbo button header on the ASUS VX97 then?

As I mentioned in another post, I am always on the lookout for socket 7 boards with a turbo switch.

I have a very similar rig I've been planning for a long time now (seems like all I do is plan on building systems, but never get around to it) with the similar specs, except for that I can't find an SCC card and my mainboard is different (but still ASUS). I was originally inspired by this very interesting article I found browsing online a long time ago (about 6 years ago I think)

http://www.jumpjet.info/Application-Software/ … OS/Hardware.txt

I always wondered if it was written by someone that may be here on vogons...if so identify yourself so I can than and praise you for your in-depth article on your mission to build the best all-in-one dos machine!

Anyways, my planned P166MMX system specs are:
ASUS TX-97-E rev 1.04 Mainboard

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P166MMX (lower voltage version-runs cooler than beige 5v version - enough to use passive heatsink I believe)
I also own a non-MMX lower voltage version that I may use if I don't use win95

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One of my "semi-retro" AOpen desktop format ATX case...don't have a turbo header on my mainboard 😒 so I don't need one with turbo switch or LED

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Diamond Monster 3D II PCI 8MB (Voodoo II)
Diamond Speedstar64 ISA 2MB

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Sound Blaster 16 (CT2230) with NEC XR385 (from that dude in China also)
DOS 7.1 (I use this version of DOS on all my retro rigs) no Windows, but I am considering Win95 OSR2
I also have a CM-32L and MT-32 (old) and yamaha MU50 and MT-300 and SC-7 (looking for a SC-55 and MT-32 (new) to complete my "all bases covered" MIDI collection.

I'm planning to use 16mb ram (for maximum compatibility) as I have found that games such as Aladdin don't work with more than 16MB (ya I said Aladdin...a game I never play but want to make sure works with my pc so that I can give in to my obssession with making my retro systems work with absolutely every game in the world...🤣..good luck).

Have you found any issue yet with running 32MB? I know that would be better than 16MB when running Win95, but how do DOS games work for you?

The CT2230 is a great sounding card which doesn’t have the hanging note bug, and paired with the XR385 it's a force to be reckoned with. But like all Creative cards it still has its issues with MIDI in some games; Duke3D and Tie Fighter are some examples of games which stutter when FX and MIDI is played simultaneously

Which DSP revision is your CT2230 card? Does it make a difference with th hanging note bug? (what version is the best?)

Like always, I am debating to forego using the SB16 and go with a yamaha ymf719 isa card instead..I heard these have less issues with MPU401 port. This is an issue for me since I dont have any intelligent mode hardware...just regular old UART 😢

I may even consider throwing in my AWE64 in the mix...not sure yet.

I use this machine for late DOS games like DOOM, Duke3D, etc, and early 3D games like Tomb Raider, Quake, + early Windows 95 games. I’m planning a play through of ‘Comanche: Maximum Overkill’ on it soon too, which runs perfectly at this speed with the Pentium patch installed.

Comanche is a great game...good to know about the pentium patch...I'll give that a try when I get everything put together. Would you use this configuration to play any older dos games as well? have you tried any by any chance? How did you fare?

I hope to play older DOS games with ths system as well as some of the newer ones you listed...I'm not a huge Duke3D fan, so maybe just Doom...I did try playing some old sierra games and at stock speeds with cache on when I had this mainboard set up in the past (with 1MB isa video card)...games like Jones in the fast lane and space quest games and even Kings Quest 6 did not play MIDI through my MT-32 properly and sometimes had lock-ups with sb16 sound...I disbaled cache in BIOS and all was good after I did that. ICD.exe and ICE.exe work as well (but I do get an error message saying that my mainboard is not compatible or something like that, but I ignore it and it still works).

Another question: would you go still go with a matrox card in this system if you were just running pure DOS?

Anyway, great build, and I especially love the AT case...I think it might be cool to remove that "stylized 'B'" case badge on there now and maybe put on an intel MMX badge on there instead.

Cheers

Reply 6 of 59, by retrofanatic

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JayCeeBee64 wrote:

I also have a P166MMX for my DOS and early Windows 95 games, and after a lot of changes and reconfigurations it finally works and performs to my satisfaction. The specs are here, with some recent changes:

-FPM RAM replaced with EDO (same amount)

JayCeeBee64: I checked out the link to your P166MMX build...very nice...I didn't know there was a full ATX version of my TX-97...having the extra ISA slots really would be nice.

Does going with EDO RAM instead of FPM just make the system run faster overall? Are there any compatibility issues with using EDO in lieu of FPM for you so far? I am a little confused as to what I should use in my system for maximum dos compatibility (I may opt out of installing WIndows on my build )...any suggestions?

Reply 7 of 59, by badmojo

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RacoonRider wrote:

Why don't I see the network adapter here? Over past years transferring files to retro PCs over network has become number one option for me. I even have collected a coaxial network kit consisting of 2 ISA nics, a hub featuring 1 coaxial and 8 RJ-45 ports and a bagfull of cables, connectors, terminators... Should work great with 386-486 PCs.

I know not a thing about Rolands, but the card seems very nice. Was it intended to work in XT?

Networking my retro machines would be very handy but I suck with anything network related! I've just never had any luck with it, and thus I resort to burning CD's most of the time. They're cheap and re-writeable, so one CD lasts me a long time.

And yeah I think the SCC1 works with an XT, it's an 8 bit card.

JayCeeBee64 wrote:

I also have a P166MMX for my DOS and early Windows 95 games, and after a lot of changes and reconfigurations it finally works and performs to my satisfaction.

Wow that's a very mean machine, nice job! Do you have any pics of the new ATX case?

I can't remember the exact model of the HDD I'm using I'm sorry, it's just a very simple 2GB Western Digital IDE drive.

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

to live up to that name why not use a MMX 233 MHz?

Lol, a couple of reasons - a put a lot of faith in the Redhill Guide and they state that the 166MMX was a classic Pentium chip; I didn't own one at the time so didn't have any opinion when I decided to built a Pentium 1. Also, I have a PIII, so any really challenging DOS SVGA games can be handled by that.

And of course the MHz display can't do '233' 😀

Last edited by badmojo on 2014-01-15, 09:59. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 8 of 59, by badmojo

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retrofanatic wrote:

Does your turbo button function? If so, does it work "on the fly" or do you have to have your system off to switch it on or off? Is there a Turbo button header on the ASUS VX97 then?

No it doesn't - I've seen a couple of socket 7 boards with a turbo button but most don't in my experience. A turbo button on anything faster than a 486DX33 is worthless IMHO, it just wouldn't slow the system down enough to be of use.

retrofanatic wrote:

Have you found any issue yet with running 32MB? I know that would be better than 16MB when running Win95, but how do DOS games work for you?

No I haven't had any trouble, but then I haven't tried any older games on this thing. It's for ~1993 plus stuff that my 486 can't handle.

retrofanatic wrote:

Which DSP revision is your CT2230 card? Does it make a difference with th hanging note bug? (what version is the best?)

DSP is ver 4.11, and yes I think it makes a difference but I don't remember the details - Vogons wiki has some good info on that. I used to use a Vibra16 card which did have the hanging note bug and it's not actually a big deal, it very rarely showed up and was pretty easy to ignore most of the time. I'm a bit OCD about stuff like that though and enjoy the challenge of getting my systems "just right" (my own special interpretation of "just right" of course).

retrofanatic wrote:

Like always, I am debating to forego using the SB16 and go with a yamaha ymf719 isa card instead..I heard these have less issues with MPU401 port. This is an issue for me since I dont have any intelligent mode hardware...just regular old UART 😢

I don't like the OPLSAx cards personally, I've tried a few of them and the software blows chunks, they're not as compatible as some other cards and they just sound too dry to my ears. I'd actually suggest you check out an ESS Audiodrive as an alternative to a Creative card:

ESS AudioDrive (ES1868) - a surprisingly good ISA sound card

And remember that you don't need an intelligent mode card any more thanks to SoftMPU.

retrofanatic wrote:

Comanche is a great game...good to know about the pentium patch...I'll give that a try when I get everything put together. Would you use this configuration to play any older dos games as well? have you tried any by any chance? How did you fare?

Nah like I said this is for later DOS games only, I have slower machines for older stuff. I've tried turning off the cache in the past, and using the pentslow program, etc. It never works right in my experience - something always complains. Mau1wurf1977 is your man for advice on slowing things down.

retrofanatic wrote:

Another question: would you go still go with a matrox card in this system if you were just running pure DOS?

For later DOS games yes I would, but not for earlier stuff. Matrox is known to have issues with Keen for example, and I'm sure others too. For pre-PCI systems I use the Tseng ET4000AX chipset (which comes in ISA and VLB flavours only).

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Reply 9 of 59, by keropi

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@badmojo

grab a riva128 pci vga and say goodbuy to keen and similar problems 😉

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Reply 10 of 59, by badmojo

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keropi wrote:

grab a riva128 pci vga and say goodbuy to keen and similar problems 😉

*gasps* - but would that be period accurate?! '97 or so - not far off I guess.

I actually have one of those but have never considered it for this machine. Thanks for the tip, I'll give it a go and see how the performance and image quality compared to the Matrox.

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Reply 11 of 59, by Mau1wurf1977

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Is Keen such a great game? What the Matrox cards do have is great VGA signal strength.

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Reply 12 of 59, by keropi

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@badmojo
yes, give it a shot and you'll see, it's a great DOS card 😉

@Mau:
Keen is a great game.
🤣

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Reply 13 of 59, by borgie83

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Nice build badmojo! As I've said to you in the recent past, your case inspired my latest rig. I'm almost finished putting it together 😀 can't wait to show you the pics! As you can tell, I'm just a little excited haha

Btw, seeing as though I've got the same case, do I need to change any settings on the rear of the display to correctly display a triple digit cpu as opposed to a dual digit cpu? This rig was originally running a 486 SX-25 whereas now I've put a 486 DX4-100 in it.

Reply 15 of 59, by badmojo

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borgie83 wrote:

Btw, seeing as though I've got the same case, do I need to change any settings on the rear of the display to correctly display a triple digit cpu as opposed to a dual digit cpu? This rig was originally running a 486 SX-25 whereas now I've put a 486 DX4-100 in it.

Yes you'll definately need to change the jumpers and you'll probably have to replace the unit to get 3 digits - I've seen those cases with both 2 and 3 digit displays.

There's some guides around on how to change the jumpers, but I usually just do them with trial by error.

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Reply 16 of 59, by vetz

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Awesome build badmojo with awesome case!

You have so much of the same reasoning and part choices as I do in mine so I can really relate! I actually use the same motherboard in my early 1996/1997 3D bench machine as it is one of the more stable boards I've got. Matrox cards are very good in Windows, very good signal quality output and they are quick in both VGA and SVGA DOS performance. This is a system for later DOS and early Windows games. Some scrolling issues with older games don't matter.

Again, we face people who think that CT2230 got hanging notes, but in reality it doesn't. People can say whatever they want about DSP version. I've never experienced any.

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Reply 17 of 59, by badmojo

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Thanks vetz! Yes we do seem to be in sync with our systems, definately a case of great minds thinking alike!

Yeah the SB16 had such a bad name around here that I didn't even try my CT2230 when I found it in a curb-side pickup, but when I finally gave it a try after messing around with all sorts of other sound cards, I found it to be one of the best cards I own. Both it and the CT2290 are winners - cheap and easy to find to boot.

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Reply 18 of 59, by chinny22

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Looks like a good quality build, totally with you on the cant upgrade the CPU, well maybe a 200Mhz and set the display to 199, maybe
I originally thought the same as you and was going to get a XR385, but fell in love with the display on a SC55

Reply 19 of 59, by Cloudschatze

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vetz wrote:

Again, we face people who think that CT2230 got hanging notes, but in reality it doesn't...I've never experienced any.

Interesting logic. I don't suppose you (or anyone else) bothered testing with X-Wing CD, as was suggested the last time this assertion was made?