Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

I don't see how someone with a RGB capable console and a good scaler like framemeister on a 50" LED wouldn't be happy.

That's exactly what I mean.

SquallStrife wrote:

Aspect isn't an issue, XRGB pillar-boxes the picture to suit, it also emulates scanlines, and plenty of other neat stuff, since it's not just a doubler, it outputs your panel's native resolution.

For me it is. Obviously I know it pillarboxes, but that takes away some of the immersion in a game for me.

I also see an issue with displaying early low-res 3D games on big screens. Even if done by the best scaler possible, it's still scaled, and the noise on screen when moving around in many games gets more noticeable. I did some comparisons with a Voodoo1 on both a modern 23" LCD and an old 15" one a while ago. The scaling looks quite bad on the newer monitor, while it's supposed to have better hardware due to being newer in theory; the result on the old LCD looked significantly better.

XRGB sound like a great solution. I can't comment directly regarding the quality but I have looked around on eBay and other websites and have found that those framemeister units are not that widely available and when they are, they are at least about $400 to buy. It may be a good solution for someone that is dedicated to just using one LCD screen for everything. I for one, have been looking for a solution like that for years because I was planning on using my 40" sony LCD for all my computing and console gaming, but soon realized that buying CRT's for very cheap (or just having them handed to me for free) was a better option for the most part. Yes, space is an issue, but I do prefer having a CRT, mainly for mitigating scaling issues without having to spend extra cash that can just be used to buy other more important retro gear (for me).

retrofanatic wrote:

but I do prefer having a CRT, mainly for mitigating scaling issues without having to spend extra cash that can just be used to buy other more important retro gear (for me).

I feel the same way. I hate scaling and wherever there's a frame buffer to manipulate the original source (or even just to check it), there's going to be lag pretty much (hopefully more options arise to fix this). CRT's aren't even hard to service either (and it's free); yes they are dangerous I admit since you have to know what you're doing. With CRT's it's just the freakin' pixels how they come from the GPU or source.

Got my Samsung 955df free and looked blurry; slightly turned focus pot after opening it and bam, razor sharp (did I mention it was stupid easy and free). Would've cost quite some money and pollution just to throw it away (now that would've been really stupid as a matter of fact). And yes it does do 1920x1440 (though under 60hz; think 54hz not sure. 1920x1080 @ 60hz is fine); higher resolutions possible by dropping refresh rate or doing interlaced. Very good dot pitch which is unlike most CRT's (recommended highest resolution is 1600x1200, but dot pitch definitely good for higher; only thing holding monitor back is refresh rate but who cares?). Seriously, all that and it was free. Why buy a $1850.00 LCD (http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/new_eizo_pro … rgb_colors.html) that does 98% of adobe's RGB color space, when I can get something with infinite RGB, no scaling, no color dithering or stupid lag; just the raw pixels how they come out of the machine in real-time, for free. Games still haven't gone beyond 32-bit color I'm afraid (when they do I wonder how much worse they'd look on an old CRT hehe).

Ya, it's one thing to talk about how great XRGB is, and 'why would someone have a big space-hogging CRT' and all that, but the fact of the matter is most people that say these things actually don't even have a framemeister setup themselves or even a high end modern broadcast LCD monitor or something like that. I mean I get it and it's obvious that there are way better options out there in terms of sharp screens capable of scaling (especially in non-consumer, broadcast/commercial channels), but that type of LCD technology can be expensive as mentioned here. Within context of retrocomputing, most people just can't afford high tech stuff like XRGB, which includes myself and just because I can't afford it, doesn't mean I don't know that it exists...Of course someone would be happy with XRGB and a 50" screen, but that many people would be happy with a Ferrari over their Honda civic too 🤣.

I have had some CRT's of mine for over 20 years and have noticed no degradation in most of them...I wonder, would some of these high end LCD's last that long? Maybe...I don't know, but it makes you wonder...for these reasons, I would venture to say that if you have the space on your desk, virtually 'free' CRT technology is still the best value for retrocomputing and one of the best solutions (for now). I guess maybe that 'framemeister' scaling box thingy can go down in price soon though...who knows? But until then, CRT's rule for me.

Settle settle!!! You guys are getting super defensive. Nobody is saying you should turf out your fantastic CRT setups. There is no argument that having a CRT isn't the most authentic way to go about retro gaming.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, I have a 29" Sony PVM display for my 15kHz gear and it's unbeatable. I've repaired my share of CRTs over time as well, so trust me when I say I know what you're all talking about. You don't need to put on the hard sell, or justify your choices, you're all rad people with appropriately rad setups.

But y'all must understand that not everybody has the skill set, patience, tools, space, time, etc, as you do. You can wax lyrical all day long about having the finest dot pitch, the smallest lag, the elite brands, the widest colour gamut, the l33test repair sk1llz, the biggest dick, whatever. But for some people, the trade-off for having a single display for all their entertainment gear, or not having benches and rooms filled with fat screens, or being able to game from the couch in the living room, owning just one screen for modern gaming, vintage gaming, TV/BluRay, HTPC, etc, are absolutely worth the small trade-off in authenticity.

There's nothing wrong with being a purist. But Jesus H Christ, there's no need to thumb your nose at people that maybe go for convenience over chasing diminishing returns. Even the most militant purist must agree that anything getting people playing real consoles is a good thing!

Edit: It seems like I'm having a go at people for using CRTs. I'm not, I promise, I use them myself!

Haha I guess I can feel like it's the end of the world sometimes! I can't blame anyone for liking LCD's or whatever they're using though.

We are going to need the best stuff available for retro gaming on digital displays either way; even if CRT's miraculously come back. And like retrofanatic put it, it's like comparing a Honda Civic to a Ferrari. If somebody prefers one over the other, their preference is probably valid. Speaking of Ferrari's that 29" PVM must be killer!

It's great to have the XRGB and high quality cables, but it's kind of a bummer the XRGB is the cheapest you can get for quality retro-gaming on digital displays (I've never used one which sucks, but I believe what everyone says about it). Had one of those gonbes CGA/EGA to HD pcbs but ended up not using it (quality was okay but I'm way happier with my line doubler; plus I had too many wires and custom cables everywhere haha)

One thing severely lacking IMO are comb filters. Seriously, imagine dual 5 line comb filters with each having seperate phase inputs; without DNR or any other filtering whatsoever. If we had SLI comb filter capture cards as such, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. There's just something really cool about restoring RGB-VGA from composite (can you say laserdisc?). Imagine that with no lag using SNES and Genesis...

@SquallStrife 🤣 I never took it that way at all...I can see how I myself came off as being a bit defensive 🤣 I apologize about that.. but I was just trying to point out that I (and others I'm sure) am aware that there is technology out there that can be more convenient than using a big bulky CRT, but for the cost, theres no point for the most of us....actually, I was also trying to point out that I bet that not many (if anyone here on Vogons so far that I've seen) even has a framemeister setup and I know that you mentioned you have a Sony PVM and CRT's...of course you do...that's my point...

....you have CRT's like the rest of us....but no one I have seen (so far) has a framemeister setup...and many of us that do have CRT's know that there are options like a framemeister on a 50" LED and no one here ever said that they wouldn't be happy with that...I for one would for sure be happy with that...again, if I could afford it.

My comments were mostly not directed directly at you (save the one above) 🤣 especially when I was talking about how I have CRT's that have lasted 20 years+ and wondering how long modern LCD will last and all that .....I was just making a general comment at that point on.

SquallStrife wrote:

But y'all must understand that not everybody has the skill set, patience, tools, space, time, etc, as you do. You can wax lyrical all day long about having the finest dot pitch, the smallest lag, the elite brands, the widest colour gamut, the l33test repair sk1llz, the biggest dick, whatever. But for some people, the trade-off for having a single display for all their entertainment gear, or not having benches and rooms filled with fat screens, or being able to game from the couch in the living room, owning just one screen for modern gaming, vintage gaming, TV/BluRay, HTPC, etc, are absolutely worth the small trade-off in authenticity.

There's nothing wrong with being a purist. But Jesus H Christ, there's no need to thumb your nose at people that maybe go for convenience over chasing diminishing returns. Even the most militant purist must agree that anything getting people playing real consoles is a good thing!

...that said, I totally agree with your comments except for when you talk about skill set, patience, tools, space, time....I really dont think anyone really needs any special skill set, patience, tools, time for a CRT setup, especially when comparing to a framemeister setup...but space is of course needed 🤣 a lot of it. Well patience is required as well sometimes 🤣

SquallStrife wrote:

Edit: It seems like I'm having a go at people for using CRTs. I'm not, I promise, I use them myself!

🤣...I for one do not feel that way at all...no need to prove that to me....I have seen pics of your sweet CRT's (i.e. your awesome 29" Sony PVM) and systems on Vogons throughout many topics and would not think that at all. 😀 I have learned tons of stuff from reading your comments throughout Vogons.

What he said.

EDIT:

SquallStrife: http://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/

Great link BTW!

Hey great thread! Would like to see more pictures of the side and back of the monitors, I'm a sucker for industrial design and some of these old crts have a thing of their own.

I love CRTs. I had a lot of different models over the years:

The first one I used was a CGA monitor in 1987, it was a "Oceanic MVP 367", possibly a French brand? Then a couple of years later we upgraded it to an EGA monitor... Samtron SC-431E. I was thrilled to rediscover all my games in 16 colours instead of 4... Then we traded the Samtron against a Sony CPD-1420E... I remember this was the first good quality monitor we had. VGA 256 colours was a shock!

I wish I still had those. Only things left are the user manuals that I managed to hold on to:



Then later, a no name 17" that came along with a Highscreen Pentium computer, with supposedly a trinitron tube, however it failed after one year and was replaced under warranty by another no name 17". Then a Sony 400PS around 1998... 19" felt truly massive at the time. I still have this one - tried to sell it on ebay a few years ago for 15 euros but no one wanted it!



Then I used a few Iiyama trinitron at work in the early 2000s, and also a Sony G500, that I sold a few years ago for pennies because I had to make space...



From the same era I managed to keep a Philips 107s, that I've been trying in vertical mode for shoot em ups lately:



And finally my Sony F520... heavy beast, but the display quality is fantastic.

@ MMaximus...awesome CRT's...I like the M-Audio (black) speakers and the beige Creative Sound Blaster ones. They both match up well with each respective Sony CRT.

MMaximus wrote:

That's a very nice looking Sony Multiscan CRT (second pic with Descent screen). Really like the panel with all those buttons on it! Don't think I've ever seen one like that. Looks like you pulled it out of a spaceship or something.

Thanks. I guess by the time they were making the F520 the whole computer industry was definitely moving out of "beige" territory!

IIRC the 400PS was made around the time the 19" screen size became more available for the consumer market. Before that it was quite unusual to see anything bigger than 17"...

d1stortion wrote:

For me it is. Obviously I know it pillarboxes, but that takes away some of the immersion in a game for me.

I also see an issue with displaying early low-res 3D games on big screens. Even if done by the best scaler possible, it's still scaled, and the noise on screen when moving around in many games gets more noticeable. I did some comparisons with a Voodoo1 on both a modern 23" LCD and an old 15" one a while ago. The scaling looks quite bad on the newer monitor, while it's supposed to have better hardware due to being newer in theory; the result on the old LCD looked significantly better.

Back when my XHD3000 was 100% (and that's another discussion for another thread) it did a very good job with low resolution inputs (like PlayStation 1, 800x600 from PC, 480i from LaserDisc, etc). Not as sharp as native via DVI-I DL, but certainly not fuzzy/bad - the fancy HQV chip certainly delivered on its promise of good scaling. My newer Samsung monitors don't do as good a job (and low res inputs tend to look stretched/distorted/etc). As far as how the 3000 stacked up to my 32" Wega - mostly a draw; the XHD3000 had an edge for PC inputs because it could do p.scan, but that was probably about it.

As far as still-working CRT monitors, this is what I've got left:

(I know; the flash washed the picture out)

True story about Philips customer support: a few years ago, probably around 2005, I was having issues with the 107X4 drawing lines/distorting/etc and contacted Philips about the issue. They offered to ship the monitor back to their facility (at their cost) and cross-ship me a replacement (also at their cost) - the monitor was a year out of warranty at the time too. 😲 I found out while packing it up that the issue was being caused by an A/C unit (after tearing down all the wiring and having it basically "by itself"), and moving it onto another circuit in the house eliminated the problem - it's never had any problems since. 😀

Currently I'm kicking around the idea of tracking down a HiScan or SFP Wega to use as a big display for games from both console and PC inputs, but not loving the prospect of manhandling a 200-300 lb display... 🤣

MMaximus wrote:

http://i.imgur.com/tPpaMUK.jpg […]
Show full quote

Heroes of Might and Magic boxes 😊 . I like Heroes 2 for the pixel art nostalgia, and Heroes 3 since it has the most features and HD mods today.

To make this post relevant, I took a lazy & unstaged photo of my CRTS: 21" Sun GDM-5510 and two 19" Sony 420GS. I'm still sorting out my apartment before I can make good use of these and show their true glory.

I'm using this Philips 107E21,image quality is good,a bit too dark even if i increased luminosity to almost max.

@obobskivich
Nice CRTs. Are there Altec Lansing ATP3 speakers? Used to have the same ages ago.

@Auzner
I sold most of my big box pc games a few years ago but nobody seemed interested by the Heroes games so this is pretty much all that's left from my collection. HOMM2 & HOMM3 are among my all time favourite games - I spent countless nights playing the campaigns and single maps for each of them. Then I bought HOMM4 on the day it was released, played it for one hour, put it back in its box and never played it again! Was so disappointed by the game and never bothered with the rest of the series.

That 420GS seem very similar to the 400PS, probably a bit more recent, wonder what the differences are between them.

@Nahkri
That 107E looks almost identical to the 107S. Again, don't know the differences between each model.

MMaximus wrote:

@obobskivich
Nice CRTs. Are there Altec Lansing ATP3 speakers? Used to have the same ages ago.

They are; stopped working recently (it's a little older pic) - pulled the subwoofer box apart and ended up recycling it; still have the satellites and they work okay plugged into other amplifiers. In that picture they were the front L/R for a 7.1 setup. 😀

Nice monitors!

Used to play Heroes III a lot with my friend and siblings, including Might and Magic VII and Diablo (didn't like Diablo II as much). Those had to be the best PC games at the time IMO (Warcraft II was good but always was sucked into MMvii). There's just something about newer games I can't quite get into as well. Oh wait that's it, I need a new video card! Duh!