VOGONS


First post, by jheronimus

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Hi, all. Seems like I'm more or less finished with building and upgrading my first Socket 7 machine so I wanted to share my results!

At first I was inspired with Boxer — a beautiful OS X frontend for DosBox. For instance, it has this:

mt32.png

It emulates MT-32 and the messages that the game would send to it. At that point I thought: "So it's quite an expensive audio device a lot of people probably didn't have. Yet the guys at Sierra actually figured out a way to use it for easter eggs. Cool!" This was the first time I've learnt that Sound Blaster was just a tip of the iceberg for DOS/early Windows machines, and AdLib was not just a poor man's sound card (as I thought as a child).

I started listening to various MIDI samples on YouTube. After that I learnt that DOS games are supposed to look better on an old school curved CRT screen. Ditto for FMV games with interlaced video — and I'm a sucker for those. Another point was that joysticks were seemingly more popular at that time, and there were a lot of space/mecha sims I've never heard of.

All that made me think: "Why not build an actual DOS machine?" This is how I wanted it to look, originally (via Kotaku):

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Originally, I thought that I would build this machine just like I would any modern rig: pick the parts, find them on Avito (Russian version of eBay), assemble them. After some research I realised that would complicate things: I needed to pick not just major components, but also every cable and screw. So I decided to find a working machine I could use as a starting point.

My original "classic desktop" vision didn't pan out, though. As many of you pointed out, they weren't all that popular in the Pentium era. Most of horizontal cases were OEM builds, like Compaq Deskpro or HP Vanta. And those are:

- rare and more expensive. If a motherboard or PSU turns out to be dead, I'm pretty much screwed as the spare parts would be impossible to find;
- limited in their upgradeability. I'm yet to see a Compaq with 4/3 PCI/ISA slots although I know they exist. To be fair, those machines typically have integrated PS/2, COM/LPT and USB ports as opposed to having dedicated expansions cards taking up slots;
- have their quirks like BIOS HDD limit, proprietary lock-ins, etc;
- have integrated components, such as GPU, sound or LAN that I'll also have to deal with.

So, this is the machine I picked out as a starting point:

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Fun fact: I bought this from an actual (ex?) FSB officer family. I didn't know until I came to their block and realised I can't get through security without company, which is unusual for a Russian residential area, to say the least. For those who don't know, FSB is Russian intelligence, kind of like CIA. When I got to their apartment, my host acknowledged the whole FSB thing, and there were a lot of FSB memorabilia (banners, medals, etc) lying around 😀

Looks like this was a Formoza build — that was an OEM popular in 90s Russia. I did not get a horizontal desktop case, but this case also has value for me — it's exactly the same no-name case I had as a child in a Pentium II machine. So, yeah, that was right in the feels, folks.

Disclaimer: I haven't figured a way to upload all the photos here past the 5 photos limit. So most of the photos I use here are from places I've bought the parts from. In some cases, they are just from the internet. Sorry. I'll try to add some photos of my own if somebody is interested, though I realise that none of my parts are actual rarities.

Here are the original specs:

- Pentium MMX 233;
- 32 MB RAM, single DIMM;
- LuckyStar 5ITX1 rev 2.0 motherboard (Intel 430TX chipset) — it's a Taiwanese manufacturer that was often used by Formoza. Most of the information I could find on this brand was in Russian, so I suppose, it wasn't that popular in other countries;

5I-TX1_Phoenix.jpg

- S3 Trio/Virge GPU with no added RAM;

775expertc.jpg

- Cirrus Logic CrystalClear 4235-KQ;
- Quantum Fireball 2.5a 2,5 GB HDD;
- Pioneer DR-444 12x CD-ROM;
- Genius EasyMouse;
- "Turbotrak Keyboard";
- Creative SBS20 speakers;
- Samsung SyncMaster 755DFX 17" CRT screen. I actually had a choice between this and a 15 inch curved Panasonic screen. But when I've seen the latter in person, it turned out to be actually painful to look at and it was in much worse condition. So yeah, a 2003 CRT screen is not that "period accurate" but it has a pretty nice picture.

First upgrade

This project actually made me travel all over the Moscow (it has a population of 15 mil, so...) and visit a bunch of places I would normally never go to. First was an actual second hand store for electronics. Here's what I bought:

- a Diamond Monster Voodoo II V-1000 videocard;

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- Sony CRX230E CD-RW drive to burn my ISOs (I have no other PC with an optical drive in my house);

- 3Com 3C905C-TXM PCI network card;

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- an 80GB Seagate IDE drive

My first joystick

A Gravis Phoenix joystick! Near mint condition, the original package, manual, drivers floppy and Descent disc!

Phoenix.jpg

It looks really cool, but it turned out to have awful ergonomics. First, both triggers can't be used at the same time, you have to switch between them. The buttons are tiny and the handle feels weird in hand. Second, it comes with programming software I'm yet to figure out. And even the bundled Descent can't use it without configuration. So I'm thinking of getting a cheap Microsoft Sidewinder 3D Pro joystick this week.

Fun fact: I bought it on an actual parking lot of a strip club. The guy didn't look like a criminal, but for some reason he did pick that spot. 🤣

Next came the 80 gigs HDD issue. My LuckyStar motherboard does have an 120GB support patch, but looks like it's for another revision. Anyways, I couldn't apply it. So I decided that I want another motherboard.

Asus motherboard

I always had Asus motherboards, and so my first pick was an Asus TX97-E. I bought it for 2,5 bucks with a Pentium 120 megahertz CPU and some SIMMs.

1302105752438_bulletin

With it came my first experience with motherboard jumpers. If someone wants a facepalm moment, you can read it here. Long story short, looks like I fried my Pentium MMX, though I'm still not sure what exactly I did wrong.

The next revelation was that Asus motherboard did not use common PS/2 and USB explansion cards. It needed a combined one, like this:

2add9397.jpg

The guy who sold me this motherboard didn't have it and I could not find any on the net (buying from eBay was surely an overkill). So I had two options:

- get PCI controllers for USB and PS/2;
- get yet another motherboard.

I picked the latter option.

AOpen motherboard

I found a guy with an AOpen AP5T motherboard, a 32 MB DIMM module, some SIMM modules, two Pentium MMX 200MHz and some ESS sound cards. It all cost me 9 dollars.

691714460.jpg

Funnily, I always thought AOpen only makes cheap HDMI cables, but the motherboard actually seems to be built better than Asus or LuckyStar.

The motherboard came with the Pentium overclocked to 250 MHz, so I didn't need to fiddle with jumpers anymore. I also now have 64 megs of RAM, the maximum for the 430TX chipset. Finally I have a dual HDD configuration, a 40 GB Samsung drive and an 80 GB Seagate drive — that's more than enough storage.

A bunch of GPUs and sound cards

Russian internet has its own version of almost everything — not because the original versions are banned (like in China), but because either someone came up with an alternative before the original gained prominence in the local market (Vkontakte vs Facebook) or because the original version worked poorly in Russia (Avito vs eBay). So we also have a Russian Reddit called Leprosorium. It's a bit weird because it's invite-only (you can't even read it unless you have an account), subscription-based ($10 a year) and supposedly very "elite". Which means its members are really helpful to each other!

When I told others I'm building a retro machine, another member reached out to me and told he had a bunch of parts he could give for free. He gave me about 20 PCI GPUs and 6 sound cards. Here is the list:

Video:

- S3 Trio64V2/DX;
- S3 Virge 325;
- Alliance AT24 — Diamond Multimedia Stealth Video 2500;
- 2 x Ati Mach64 VT (Charger??);
- Cirrus Logic CL-GD5430;
- SiS 6215 (PCI-VGA6215-1M rev.1.0);
- ALi M3141A;
- VGA card S3 Virge/GX Quad Head, 16MB (??);
- 5 x Matrox G200 — MGI G2+/DUALP-PL;
- 2 x Matrox G200 — MGI G2+/QUADP-PL/7;
- 2 x Nvidia Quadro4 400NVS;

Sound:

- AWE64 CT4500;
- Vibra 16XV CT4170;
- Vibra 16C CT4180;
- Vibra 16 CT2940;
- Formoza SC1620;
- MediaMagic ISP-16.

Again, none of these are rarities. Some of them don't even work. Most are double or quad heads. But I got a choice of a better sound card than my Cirrus Logic, a better S3 Virge card and a bunch of RAM modules for it, a bunch of cables and screws I could use in my build. I settled for a CT4170 as I couldn't set up AWE64. Either it's dead or I need to reflash its BIOS. The system freezes at POST with it.

So, here are my current specs:

- Pentium MMX 200, overclocked to 250 MHz;
- 64 MB SDRAM;
- S3 Virge 325;
- VooDoo 2 V-1000;
- Vibra 16XV CT4170;
- 40+80 GB HDD;
- 52X CD-RW;
- 100MB NIC.

I'm sure these specs scream MOAR IS BETTER to the purists among you, but the idea behind the whole huge HDD thing was that I could download a batch of ISOs from my FTP server (another rig) overnight and then burn them to CDs. Besides, I'm actually thinking about giving Baldur's Gate 1/2 another run on this machine and these games just love taking up space. Also, I got a Voodoo 2 because it's cheaper and easier to find than a Voodoo 1.

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Next steps:

1. Cable management. Well, you've all seen it. 🤣
2. Get a Microsoft Sidewinder joystick. Quickshot joysticks also look nice, though don't seem too practical for Wing Commander or X-Wing.
3. Add a USB card and get a Microsoft steerwing wheel. Never had a wheel, let alone a force feedback one.
4. Be on a lookout for better sound/MIDI cards. When I started this project, I did not realise how expensive Roland MT-32s were. I could only find one in Moscow for about 280 USD without a power supply or any other included stuff. AWE32s also cost a bit more I'm ready to pay right now — though it might be a nice birthday present to myself!
5. I'm also getting a DIN-5 Mitsumi Classic keyboard. I'm not sure it's gonna be any better than my noname current keyboard, but it's free and unused. Also want to get a better mouse with a third button or a wheel (an original Intellimouse, perhaps).

Thanks for sticking with me. It's my first build and I know I made a lot of mistakes. The part where I fried a CPU was a particulary painful one. Still I'd welcome any feedback! I'll also try to post photos of some weird parts I ended up with.

Last edited by jheronimus on 2016-02-01, 23:07. Edited 10 times in total.

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Reply 1 of 19, by jheronimus

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Here's a GPU I could not identify at all.

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These are quad-head S3 Virge cards. Looks like there are at least two S3 Virge 325 chips on each board. They use SCSI to VGA cables! One of them (the one that didn't have a bracket) seems to be fried — it produced horrible artifacts when I plugged it in. It's not practical for me to use these in a build, but I'd like to know that they are.

Last edited by jheronimus on 2016-02-01, 22:48. Edited 2 times in total.

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Reply 2 of 19, by jheronimus

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This is a Formosa sound card with a SC1620 identifier. Also has a Yamaha OPL chip:

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Reply 3 of 19, by clueless1

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What a great read! You especially scored from the nice guy from Leprosorium! That's a great build you got, enough to get the salivary glands working overtime, I bet! Enjoy, and thank you so much for sharing 😀

The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.
OPL3 FM vs. Roland MT-32 vs. General MIDI DOS Game Comparison
Let's benchmark our systems with cache disabled
DOS PCI Graphics Card Benchmarks

Reply 4 of 19, by jheronimus

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clueless1 wrote:

What a great read! You especially scored from the nice guy from Leprosorium! That's a great build you got, enough to get the salivary glands working overtime, I bet! Enjoy, and thank you so much for sharing 😀

Thanks for your kind words!

And yes, that guy rocks! I didn't understand why people who build retro rigs tend to have an excessive amount of spare parts but I do now, it's extremely helpful.

Some parts have physical issues, though. For instance, Cirrus Logic CL-GD5430 has some capacitors hanging by a thread, so it looks like I'm learning how to solder pretty soon. 🤣

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Reply 5 of 19, by Stiletto

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jheronimus wrote:

Here's a GPU I could not identify at all.

2016-02-01 23.12.25.jpg

These are quad-head S3 Virge cards. Looks like there are at least two S3 Virge 325 chips on each board. They use SCSI to VGA cables! One of them (the one that didn't have a bracket) seems to be fried — it produced horrible artifacts when I plugged it in. It's not practical for me to use these in a build, but I'd like to know that they are.

STB Systems MVP 3D?

"I see a little silhouette-o of a man, Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you
do the Fandango!" - Queen

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Reply 6 of 19, by Tetrium

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jheronimus wrote:

Here's a GPU I could not identify at all.

2016-02-01 23.12.25.jpg

These are quad-head S3 Virge cards. Looks like there are at least two S3 Virge 325 chips on each board. They use SCSI to VGA cables! One of them (the one that didn't have a bracket) seems to be fried — it produced horrible artifacts when I plugged it in. It's not practical for me to use these in a build, but I'd like to know that they are.

Do you happen to know more about these?
I happen to have one (or one very similar to it) but I don't have the adapter, so I can't even test it 🤣

Whats missing in your collections?
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Reply 7 of 19, by jheronimus

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Stiletto wrote:

STB Systems MVP 3D?

Tetrium wrote:

Do you happen to know more about these?
I happen to have one (or one very similar to it) but I don't have the adapter, so I can't even test it 🤣

Looks like Stiletto is absolutely right. It has "(c) 1997 STB Systems Inc." written on the board — sorry, overlooked that. The small square white stickers say MVP-3D 1.1 — wouldn't have guessed it's a model name, though.

UPD: Looks like here is a better description:

STB MVP Dual Virge DX graphics controller board - With 4MB EDO RAM for each channel, 170MHz RAMDAC, and one 68-pin high density monitor output connector - Can be upgraded to quad monitor output - Occupies one PCI slot

They were used in HP/Compaq Professional Workstation 5000/5100 series.

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Reply 8 of 19, by gdjacobs

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Any chance yet to test the ESS cards? For FM sound, you might find ESS emulation to be more pleasant than CQM.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 9 of 19, by jheronimus

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Not yet. I'll likely play some Dune 1 soon, so I'm likely to try my OPL-enabled Formoza, too.

BTW, can I use two ISA sound cards in the same system? How do I switch between them? Would just disabling them in Device Manager work? Provided I'm not playing in real DOS, of course.

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Reply 10 of 19, by gdjacobs

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You can use two cards provided you use non-conflicting I/O port, IRQ, and DMA settings. You can use the same I/O port for the FM synth - FM synth tunes will then output from both cards at the same time. Windows applications can choose the PCM output you would like to use. DOS programs can use either card depending on the I/O port, IRQ, and DMA selected (either by changing the BLASTER environment variable or using the setup program for the software).

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 11 of 19, by PeterLI

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Look for Roland in the EU. You can find stuff really cheap on Classifieds sites. Shipping from EU to RU is usually pretty cheap.

Examples: CM-32L in DK for €75, SC-55ST for €25 in NL, SC-55 for €35 in NL, CM-500 for €60 in DE, MPU-IPC-T for €40 in NL. All including shipping to NL. All in 2015.

SCB-55/SCD-15 for €50 in IT: http://m.mercatinomusicale.com/mm/a_roland-sc … _id4449284.html.

Reply 12 of 19, by jheronimus

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PeterLI wrote:

Look for Roland in the EU. You can find stuff really cheap on Classifieds sites. Shipping from EU to RU is usually pretty cheap.

Examples: CM-32L in DK for €75, SC-55ST for €25 in NL, SC-55 for €35 in NL, CM-500 for €60 in DE, MPU-IPC-T for €40 in NL. All including shipping to NL. All in 2015.

Some stupid questions, but I kinda got confused with those.

In order for a MT to work, I need both a MIDI device and a MIDI interface card. Second option is to get a LAPC-I "all in one" card, and third option is to use a MIDI-compatible Sound Blaster instead of a dedicated interface card, and risk a hanging note bug.

So, in your example, CM-32L, CM-500, SC-55St, SC-55 are MIDI external cards and MPU-IPC-T is an interface.

CM-32L is more advanced than MT-32, but some older games account for bugs in MT-32 and may sound weird on CM-32L. CM-500 and SC-55 are even more advanced and hence, less compatible.

SCB-55 is an daughterboard for a Sound Blaster AWE32 and it's.. even less compatible?

Feel free to correct me at any point!

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Reply 13 of 19, by gdjacobs

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jheronimus wrote:

Some stupid questions, but I kinda got confused with those.

In order for a MT to work, I need both a MIDI device and a MIDI interface card. Second option is to get a LAPC-I "all in one" card, and third option is to use a MIDI-compatible Sound Blaster instead of a dedicated interface card, and risk a hanging note bug.

Yes, plus for an MPU-401 UART on your sound card to operate as an intelligent mode interface, you'll need SoftMPU.

jheronimus wrote:

So, in your example, CM-32L, CM-500, SC-55St, SC-55 are MIDI external cards and MPU-IPC-T is an interface.

CM-32L is more advanced than MT-32, but some older games account for bugs in MT-32 and may sound weird on CM-32L. CM-500 and SC-55 are even more advanced and hence, less compatible.

CM-500 is fully compatible with CM-32L. It also has General MIDI capability. SC-55 doesn't do LA synthesis like the MT-32 and it's cousins, it does General MIDI and Roland GS.

jheronimus wrote:

SCB-55 is an daughterboard for a Sound Blaster AWE32 and it's.. even less compatible?

The SCB-55 can be installed in any card which features a Waveblaster header. It performs GM and GS synthesis for which it's perfectly compatible. Like the SC-55, it's only compatibility to MT-32 will be through a custom patch mapping which is only an approximation and works only on some games.

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 15 of 19, by PeterLI

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MT-32, MT-100, CM-32L, CM-64, CM-500: LA external. More common and relatively cheap.
LAPC-I: LA internal. Rare and very expensive usually.

SC-7, SC-33, SC-50, SC-55(MKII/ST), SC-88*, SC-D70, M-GS64: GM, GM2, GS (SC-7: GM only) external. Very common and cheap.
RAP-10, SCD-10/SCB-7: GM internal. Rare and expensive usually.
SCC-1, SCD-15/SCB-55: GM / GS internal. Rare and expensive usually.

There are many other GM internal and external synthesizers in the market. Yamaha also has XG.

Reply 16 of 19, by PhilsComputerLab

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I swear that computer (second photo) is like my Acer 486. I don't have the case anymore, but it looked like this one:

attachment.php?attachmentid=13231&d=1368291223

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Reply 17 of 19, by Tetrium

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jheronimus wrote:
Looks like Stiletto is absolutely right. It has "(c) 1997 STB Systems Inc." written on the board — sorry, overlooked that. The s […]
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Tetrium wrote:

Do you happen to know more about these?
I happen to have one (or one very similar to it) but I don't have the adapter, so I can't even test it 🤣

Looks like Stiletto is absolutely right. It has "(c) 1997 STB Systems Inc." written on the board — sorry, overlooked that. The small square white stickers say MVP-3D 1.1 — wouldn't have guessed it's a model name, though.

UPD: Looks like here is a better description:

STB MVP Dual Virge DX graphics controller board - With 4MB EDO RAM for each channel, 170MHz RAMDAC, and one 68-pin high density monitor output connector - Can be upgraded to quad monitor output - Occupies one PCI slot

They were used in HP/Compaq Professional Workstation 5000/5100 series.

Cheers! 😁

Mine has a sticker with "Compaq" on it and there are a few differences with your boards, perhaps it's interesting to compare them for the sake of knowledge 😁

The main difference between your cards and mine is that yours has half the memory chips soldered and the other half are empty memory chip sockets while mine has all memory chips soldered (no sockets) and there are a few other differences like the color of some of those tiny blocks to the right of the "Digital" chip.
And your cards seem to be Virge's where mine has Virge DX's (I packed the card away and the pics aren't very clear *cough* 🤣)

They seem to have the same BIOS versions though, I think mine is a little bit newer revision.

Pics are made with my mobile 🤣

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Reply 18 of 19, by Stiletto

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It looks like your stickers say "MVP WS", Tetrium... that is indeed another STB model.
STB Systems MVP Workstation

However, the key part number is the Compaq part number, which normally follows a pattern like: 213456-001

"I see a little silhouette-o of a man, Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you
do the Fandango!" - Queen

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Reply 19 of 19, by Tetrium

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Stiletto wrote:

It looks like your stickers say "MVP WS", Tetrium... that is indeed another STB model.
STB Systems MVP Workstation

However, the key part number is the Compaq part number, which normally follows a pattern like: 213456-001

Wow...well spotted! 😁

Since you mentioned the other 2 cards were HP (or someone else referenced HP?) and mine came with a Compaq sticker, I reckoned this was important.
Somehow I completely missed the model number written on the tiny square sticker on the BIOS's 🤣

Still very interesting. Too bad I don't have the break-out adapter, can't remember if I ever tried to make it post and hear the beeps though but probably not as I can't use it anyway. I of course kept it as I think it's very interesting (I'm pretty sure I got it for free)

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!