VOGONS


First post, by j^aws

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

My last WIP 1 for reference: WIP 1: Ezra-T slow-down machine, S370 industrial build...

Not getting any younger; need to get these builds finished sometime this decade. So, here is something you don't see everyday:

DSC_0365.JPG
Filename
DSC_0365.JPG
File size
2.91 MiB
Views
3326 views
File comment
AMD K6-III+, Socket 7 with working Turbo-switch, 6 ISA slots!
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception
DSC_0364.JPG
Filename
DSC_0364.JPG
File size
3.17 MiB
Views
3326 views
File comment
A different angle, SIS chipset, S7 Evergreen Interposer used.
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception
DSC_0366.JPG
Filename
DSC_0366.JPG
File size
3.12 MiB
Views
3326 views
File comment
Dual Tsengs - ET4000AX can work alongside its older brother...
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception
DSC_0368.JPG
Filename
DSC_0368.JPG
File size
2.92 MiB
Views
3326 views
File comment
... A Tseng ET6100... and PowerVR PCX2 - aka Apocalypse 5D.
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

Speedsys:

DSC_0356.JPG
Filename
DSC_0356.JPG
File size
2.13 MiB
Views
3326 views
File comment
Nvidia MX400 PCI, K6-III+ at 83 MHz FSB, 6x Multi.
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

So, this is around the fastest this board will go. The board is a Rise R547:
http://www.yjfy.com/R/RISE/mainboard/R547.htm
With the Apocalypse 5D and the Tseng ET4000AX taking up 2 slots, I have 5 slots available. Possibly a Voodoo 1 or 2, and the rest will be sound cards.

So, how slow can this board go? XT 8088 equivalent speeds are possible, covering 6 distinct eras: 8088/ 8086, 286, 386, 486, 586/ Pentium and Pentium II. More 6-in-1 benches to follow...

Reply 4 of 45, by jade_angel

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

Not sure I've ever seen a Super Socket 7 board with no AGP and that many ISA before! That is a rather unusual one. Very interested to see where this winds up!

Main Box: Ryzen-TR 1900X | GTX 1050/Radeon RX 580
98/2000 Box: PIII/766 |Quadro4 380 XGL

Reply 5 of 45, by j^aws

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

^^ Interesting you call this a Super Socket board - how do you define one? I was under the impression that to qualify, the board required 100 MHz FSB capability at the very least, and possibly an AGP slot. And yes, the board is rather unusual.

I didn't get too much time for benches, but did try a few. Firstly, I tried an ET4000AX utility called DMODE - anyone try this out before?

DSC_0369[1].JPG
Filename
DSC_0369[1].JPG
File size
1.78 MiB
Views
3251 views
File comment
DMODE for ET4000AX
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

It seems to allow various modes of interest. Of note, the ability to change how registers behave for CGA, EGA and VGA. How good is this regarding compatibility?

Also of note is the ability to force an 8 or 16 bit bus; this comes in handy for slowdown using the video controller rather than the CPU. So you could create a graphics-bound setup instead of being CPU-bound. I managed to get some time to test this board with the fastest CPU settings on a few benches:

R547 1.png
Filename
R547 1.png
File size
8.97 KiB
Views
3251 views
File comment
Benches at 500MHz, 83x6.
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

Added the Voodoo 3000 and Nvidia MX400 for reference. They're in the same ballbark as the Tseng ET6100. Whilst the ET4000AX, being ISA based, is way off the mark, especially when forced to operate at an 8bit bus width. I can safely say it's being 'maxed' out!

More to follow...

Reply 6 of 45, by jade_angel

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

I completely missed that you were running it at 83x6, rather than 100x5. Mea maxima culpa, there.

Main Box: Ryzen-TR 1900X | GTX 1050/Radeon RX 580
98/2000 Box: PIII/766 |Quadro4 380 XGL

Reply 7 of 45, by melbar

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
j^aws wrote:

So, how slow can this board go? XT 8088 equivalent speeds are possible, covering 6 distinct eras: 8088/ 8086, 286, 386, 486, 586/ Pentium and Pentium II. More 6-in-1 benches to follow...

Interesting benchmark test with this board. I assume that you want to slow down from a low-end 386 speed (when all caches are disabled) to slower XT or 286.
But how do you want to separate between these (8088/ 8086, 286) as you have only this one additional "turbo-switch" ??

Reply 8 of 45, by j^aws

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
melbar wrote:
j^aws wrote:

So, how slow can this board go? XT 8088 equivalent speeds are possible, covering 6 distinct eras: 8088/ 8086, 286, 386, 486, 586/ Pentium and Pentium II. More 6-in-1 benches to follow...

Interesting benchmark test with this board. I assume that you want to slow down from a low-end 386 speed (when all caches are disabled) to slower XT or 286.
But how do you want to separate between these (8088/ 8086, 286) as you have only this one additional "turbo-switch" ??

Not only fill in gaps below 386 speeds with 286 and 8088/ 8086, but also fill in gaps around 386 - Pentium 100 smoothly, which isn't possible on a normal K6 setup with a SS7 board.

I can separate between 8088/ 8086 and 286 by using multiple parameters besides Turbo/ Deturbo. Parameters available: FSB, Multiplier, L1 Cache, L2 Cache, L3 Cache, Memory Timings and Latency settings in BIOS. How significant the impact on speed depends on the parameter(s) and the state of the CPU speed. For example, insignificant parameters at high CPU speeds become very significant at 8088/ 8086 speeds.

The lowest FSB currently for this board is 50MHz, however, it could be possible to get more undocumented settings from this:

IMG_20170419_192219.JPG
Filename
IMG_20170419_192219.JPG
File size
126.95 KiB
Views
3165 views
File comment
PLL Clock Generator and extra pins.
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

I maybe able to get lower FSBs from the missing 4th pin, JP1. I'm pretty sure the IC next to it is the PLL Clock Generator, but I can't seem to find a datasheet for it. In any case, even at 50MHz FSB x 2 Multi, the board can still downclock to XT speeds, where Speedsys drops below the number 1. I'll see if I can post a Speedsys profile in that range, but it does take an eternity to run at that speed range...

Reply 9 of 45, by j^aws

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Okay, so there are so many ways to bench this setup - I'll start with a focus around 8088/ 8086 to 286 speeds:

Speedsys ~ 113

DSC_0401.JPG
Filename
DSC_0401.JPG
File size
2.47 MiB
Views
3123 views
File comment
100 MHz, 50x2; all caches enabled: L1, L2, L3; Turbo enabled (fast); fastest BIOS timings.
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

Same config with NSI version 8 (Norton System Information) ~ 595

DSC_0402.JPG
Filename
DSC_0402.JPG
File size
3.49 MiB
Views
3123 views
File comment
100 MHz, 50x2; all caches enabled: L1, L2, L3; Turbo enabled (fast); fastest BIOS timings.
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

I'll be switching mostly to NSI for benches, especially at the slow end of the spectrum due to it returning results much faster than Speedsys. For the NSI Computing Index:

NSI = 1.0 = 4.77 MHz IBM XT

I'll follow this path for slowdown below (there are many paths). By flicking the working Turbo header, and going into De-Turbo mode:

Speedsys ~ 9.26

DSC_0371.JPG
Filename
DSC_0371.JPG
File size
2.27 MiB
Views
3123 views
File comment
100 MHz, 50x2; all caches enabled: L1, L2, L3; De-Turbo enabled (slow); fastest BIOS timings.
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

NSI ~ 48.5

DSC_0403.JPG
Filename
DSC_0403.JPG
File size
3.18 MiB
Views
3123 views
File comment
100 MHz, 50x2; all caches enabled: L1, L2, L3; De-Turbo enabled (slow); fastest BIOS timings.
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

You can see the drastic change in the Speedsys memory throughput with De-Turbo. Continued on next page...

Reply 10 of 45, by jheronimus

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
jade_angel wrote:

Not sure I've ever seen a Super Socket 7 board with no AGP and that many ISA before! That is a rather unusual one. Very interested to see where this winds up!

I kinda thought all SIS530-based boards didn't have AGP — which is why most people tend to go for MVP3 or Aladdin V. But I've also never seen a full-featured SIS board — they often have just one ISA port.

My Telegram blog about retro hardware (in Russian)

Pentium 133, 32 MB RAM, S3 Trio64V+, Crystal 4232, Dreamblaster X2 and Roland MT-32
Pentium III 1000, 512 MB RAM, Voodoo 5 5500 AGP, SB Live 5.1, SB32 CT3930, Gravis Ultrasound Max rev2.1

Reply 11 of 45, by j^aws

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

... Keeping the above config, but disabling L1 and L2 cache (internal), and enabling L3 cache (external in BIOS):

Speedsys ~ 1.19

DSC_0372.JPG
Filename
DSC_0372.JPG
File size
2.09 MiB
Views
3121 views
File comment
100 MHz, 50x2; L1 and L2 disabled, L3 enabled; De-Turbo enabled (slow); fastest BIOS timings.
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

NSI ~ 2.4

DSC_0374.JPG
Filename
DSC_0374.JPG
File size
3.35 MiB
Views
3121 views
File comment
100 MHz, 50x2; L1 and L2 disabled, L3 enabled; De-Turbo enabled (slow); fastest BIOS timings.
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

Topbench ~ 6

DSC_0373.JPG
Filename
DSC_0373.JPG
File size
1.32 MiB
Views
3121 views
File comment
100 MHz, 50x2; L1 and L2 disabled, L3 enabled; De-Turbo enabled (slow); fastest BIOS timings.
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

Landmark (ver.6) ~ 5 MHz AT

DSC_0375.JPG
Filename
DSC_0375.JPG
File size
2.8 MiB
Views
3121 views
File comment
100 MHz, 50x2; L1 and L2 disabled, L3 enabled; De-Turbo enabled (slow); fastest BIOS timings.
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

You can see that we have approached 8088/ 8086/ 286 territory. The above settings would be one of three baseline starting points to scale using both FSB and Multipliers for various speed profiles.

Continued on next page...

Reply 12 of 45, by j^aws

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Another baseline config, same as above but with with all caches disabled (L1, L2, L3):

Speedsys ~ 0.62

DSC_0379.JPG
Filename
DSC_0379.JPG
File size
2.14 MiB
Views
3116 views
File comment
100 MHz, 50x2; L1, L2 and L3 disabled; De-Turbo enabled (slow); fastest BIOS timings.
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

NSI ~ 1.2

DSC_0377.JPG
Filename
DSC_0377.JPG
File size
3.58 MiB
Views
3116 views
File comment
100 MHz, 50x2; L1, L2 and L3 disabled; De-Turbo enabled (slow); fastest BIOS timings.
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

Topbench ~ 4

DSC_0376.JPG
Filename
DSC_0376.JPG
File size
1.32 MiB
Views
3116 views
File comment
100 MHz, 50x2; L1, L2 and L3 disabled; De-Turbo enabled (slow); fastest BIOS timings.
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

Landmark ~ 3 MHz AT

DSC_0378.JPG
Filename
DSC_0378.JPG
File size
3.24 MiB
Views
3116 views
File comment
100 MHz, 50x2; L1, L2 and L3 disabled; De-Turbo enabled (slow); fastest BIOS timings.
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

You don't see many Speedsys scores below 1.0; welcome to 8088/ 8086 territory...

Continued on next page...

Reply 13 of 45, by j^aws

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

... The 3rd baseline config, same as above but with slowest BIOS timings:

Speedsys ~ 0.45

DSC_0384.JPG
Filename
DSC_0384.JPG
File size
2.14 MiB
Views
3112 views
File comment
100 MHz, 50x2; L1, L2 and L3 disabled; De-Turbo enabled (slow); slowest BIOS timings.
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

NSI ~ 0.9

DSC_0381.JPG
Filename
DSC_0381.JPG
File size
3.66 MiB
Views
3112 views
File comment
100 MHz, 50x2; L1, L2 and L3 disabled; De-Turbo enabled (slow); slowest BIOS timings.
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

Topbench ~ 3

DSC_0380.JPG
Filename
DSC_0380.JPG
File size
1.34 MiB
Views
3112 views
File comment
100 MHz, 50x2; L1, L2 and L3 disabled; De-Turbo enabled (slow); slowest BIOS timings.
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

Landmark ~ 2 MHz AT

DSC_0383.JPG
Filename
DSC_0383.JPG
File size
3.58 MiB
Views
3112 views
File comment
100 MHz, 50x2; L1, L2 and L3 disabled; De-Turbo enabled (slow); slowest BIOS timings.
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

... With Speedsys approximating to less than 0.5 (0.45) and NSI to around 0.9 - this is 8088 territory. Looking at the last two batch of results, NSI 1.2 and 0.9, I have only adjusted BIOS timings. Tweaking this can adjust an NSI range from 0.9-1.2, and attain different XT 8088 speed profiles. For example, Turbo'ed 8088 XTs and NEC V20s...

Moreover, I have used only the PCI Tseng ET6100 so far in these tests, and if you look back at my earlier post with the ISA ET4000AX, I can use this card for graphics-bound scenarios. I have more options to test, especially using MDA/ CGA/ EGA/ VGA register switching using its DMODE utility...

More will follow later, where I'll scale-up from these three baselines using FSB and Multiplier parameters. This will show a smooth range of speeds from 8088-386...

Reply 14 of 45, by matze79

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

This Board has SIS Graphics onboard ?

is there a VGA Header ?

EDIT:
Ok this is without SiS VGA.

Nice Board, only 2 PCI ?

https://dosreloaded.de - The German Retro DOS PC Community
https://www.retroianer.de - under constructing since ever

Co2 - for a endless Summer

Reply 16 of 45, by j^aws

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

@matze79:

Yes, it doesn't have an on-board VGA, but I do have another Turbo-switched S7 that does. Only 2 PCI slots will suffice for this board as the Apocalypse 5D has both PowerVR PCX2 and a 2D core on the same card. The other PCI slot will likely be a Voodoo 1/2...

@carlostex:

Yes, it is indeed a feat, as it's very hard to get IA32 CPUs this slow. I do have another board that goes even slower - possibly even to an Intel 4004 speed range...

I've been really busy lately, but managed to get some tests done and formatted some datapoints from XT speeds to around a 486 for the time being - outlining the smooth scaling.

You can see both FSB and Multi scaling using the aforementioned baselines:

Scaling 1.png
Filename
Scaling 1.png
File size
55.08 KiB
Views
2901 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

The cells highlighted in red are anomalies, where the expected Speedsys numbers are lower than expected. Bizarrely, they are slower with faster parameters...

Next, I've collated the datapoints to show the smoothness in scaling:

scaling 2.png
Filename
scaling 2.png
File size
57.98 KiB
Views
2901 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

I stopped around Speedsys ~ 9, this is around where I de-turboed with all caches enabled, as seen in one of my earlier posts. The above datapoints have scaled up to just below that speed.

Below is a graphical representation of the above table:

Speedsys Scale to 10.png
Filename
Speedsys Scale to 10.png
File size
23.17 KiB
Views
2901 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

More datapoints can be added to make the scaling even smoother... So, we've scaled from a PCJr/ XT to a slow 486. Here is the fastest Speedsys snapshot with Deturbo and only L3 Cache enabled:

DSC_0433.JPG
Filename
DSC_0433.JPG
File size
2.29 MiB
Views
2901 views
File comment
L1 and L2 disabled, L3 enabled; De-Turbo enabled (slow); fastest BIOS timings.
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

I'll continue later with more scaling past 486 speeds and into Pentium and beyond... If anyone wants to see a Speedsys snapshot at a particular datapoint, then just let me know and I can post one here (they do take ages at the lowest speeds).

Reply 17 of 45, by j^aws

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Okay, some more benches - pretty much an extensive run to continue from where I last left off:

scaling 3.png
Filename
scaling 3.png
File size
85.93 KiB
Views
2778 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

Above are a range of datapoints for various baselines - so many to fill in! Most are done, especially the ones that return Speedsys results the fastest. I have enough datapoints to fill out a smooth range from PCJr/ XT @ 4MHz to K6-III+ @ 500MHz with plenty of granularity, as shown below:

scaling 4.png
Filename
scaling 4.png
File size
99.79 KiB
Views
2778 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

And below is a graphical represenation of the whole scale, with select datapoints:

Sppedsys scale 600.png
Filename
Sppedsys scale 600.png
File size
107.99 KiB
Views
2778 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

Baselines 1, 2, 3 and 4 use De-Turbo as a parameter for slowdown. Baselines 5, 6, 7 and 8 are with Turbo (normal, fast). So 5 to 8 give an idea as to what speed ranges are available for a typical Socket 7 setup without Turbo functionality. As you can see, the whole range is very expansive and smooth, and should be more than adequate to cover a vast range of games...

Need a break form benches for now...

Reply 18 of 45, by gdjacobs

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Using the turbo switch in this way makes the machine something special. You, sir, have created a truly rare breed!

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder