VOGONS


First post, by ildonaldo

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I just brought up one of my favoured retro gaming machines from the cellar to check the Hardware and play some old games (e.g. Miss Lara).
The machine runs quite well (OK it's Windows 95) and I love the combination of the millenium and the m3D - back 1997 I had a Mystique + the m3d.
It even runs Tomb Raider 1 at 1024x768 with acceptable frame rates - a Voodoo 2 machine would need SLI to do that.

It's mostly 1997 hardware with a few exceptions:
- some of the drives are not exactly "on period"
- the IDT WinChip is one I own since release 1999 (used it as an upgrade for my single voltage Socket 7 board back then)

Hardware:
Board: GA-586S Rev. 1.22C, Socket 7, SIS 5571, AT-Board
CPU: IDT Winchip W2A-200, Socket 7, 200MHz, 66MHz FSB, single-voltage, MMX, 3DNow
RAM: 128MB EDO (2x64MB), SAMSUNG KMM53216004AK-6U, 60ns
2D-card: Matrox Millenium II, 4MB WRAM, PCI
3D- card: Matrox m3D, 4MB, PowerVR PCX2, PCI
Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Vibra 16XV, CT4170, ISA
HDD: Quantum Fireball lct10, 10.2 GB, ATA-66, IDE
ODD: CD-ROM 40x, LG CRD-8400B, IDE
FDD1: 2.88 MB, 3.5" floppy, Sony
FDD2: 1.2MB high-density, 5.25" floppy, Teac FD-55GR (NOS)
Case: NoName AT-Tower (frame embossed "1997")
PSU: FSP SPI-300G, AT, 300W (NOS)
OS: Windows 95 (incl. Updates)

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Case Front
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Case Rear (note the added Turbo Switch in the low slot cover)
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Matrox m3d out of the box
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Installed Hardware
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Miss Lara with the matrox m3d (up to 1024x768)
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PC #1: AMD 486DX2-80/UMC 8881/16MB SIMM/S3 Trio64V+/1.44/1GB HDD/ODD/DOS+Win3.1
PC #2: IDT W2A-200/SIS 5571/128MB SD/Millenium II+m3d/2.88+1.2 FDD/1GB HDD/ODD/Win95
PC #3: AthlonXP 3200+/nForce2-400/2GB-400 DDR1/9800Pro/ZIP 750/200GB HDD/ODD/WIN XP SP3

Reply 1 of 17, by Anonymous Coward

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It's a pretty cool build. Despite being ATX, the case looks exactly like the AT cases they were selling around 1997.

Winchip (especially the more obscure variants) is an interesting CPU, but even at 200Mhz your're probably gaming like 1996 at best. Even the board you have chosen was more of a favourite in 1996, especially for running the 6x86-P200+.

"Will the highways on the internets become more few?" -Gee Dubya
V'Ger XT|Upgraded AT|Ultimate 386|Super VL/EISA 486|SMP VL/EISA Pentium

Reply 2 of 17, by matze79

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Congratulation, weakest FPU for a 3D Accelrator that needs a Strong FPU 😁

Tomb Raider is maybe the only Game that will run fluid on that Setup with PCX2 😁

https://dosreloaded.de - The German Retro DOS PC Community
https://www.retroianer.de - under constructing since ever

Co2 - for a endless Summer

Reply 3 of 17, by darry

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matze79 wrote on 2020-06-11, 10:34:

Congratulation, weakest FPU for a 3D Accelrator that needs a Strong FPU 😁

Tomb Raider is maybe the only Game that will run fluid on that Setup with PCX2 😁

What's the max CPU speed before PCX2 starts crapping out ? I once tried mine on an overkill machine (GHz range P3, I think, not sure) and it worked, but had absolutely no filtering . I always assumed the CPU was too fast for it .

Reply 4 of 17, by ildonaldo

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matze79 wrote on 2020-06-11, 10:34:

Congratulation, weakest FPU for a 3D Accelrator that needs a Strong FPU 😁

Tomb Raider is maybe the only Game that will run fluid on that Setup with PCX2 😁

This is more a nostalgia build than going for the max performace.
And it is always a nice challange to get games running with the PowerVR but there are some good threads dealing with that matter.

PC #1: AMD 486DX2-80/UMC 8881/16MB SIMM/S3 Trio64V+/1.44/1GB HDD/ODD/DOS+Win3.1
PC #2: IDT W2A-200/SIS 5571/128MB SD/Millenium II+m3d/2.88+1.2 FDD/1GB HDD/ODD/Win95
PC #3: AthlonXP 3200+/nForce2-400/2GB-400 DDR1/9800Pro/ZIP 750/200GB HDD/ODD/WIN XP SP3

Reply 5 of 17, by ildonaldo

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Anonymous Coward wrote on 2020-06-11, 10:26:

It's a pretty cool build. Despite being ATX, the case looks exactly like the AT cases they were selling around 1997.

In fact the case is one of this mixed AT/ATX builds (with no Turbo-Button) that came with both IO-shields and mountig for the AT Powerswitch.
It was brandnew but over the time the adapter for the AT IO-shield got lost and I had to improvise that.
Maybe one day I'll get a 3D-print to cover it properly ...

PC #1: AMD 486DX2-80/UMC 8881/16MB SIMM/S3 Trio64V+/1.44/1GB HDD/ODD/DOS+Win3.1
PC #2: IDT W2A-200/SIS 5571/128MB SD/Millenium II+m3d/2.88+1.2 FDD/1GB HDD/ODD/Win95
PC #3: AthlonXP 3200+/nForce2-400/2GB-400 DDR1/9800Pro/ZIP 750/200GB HDD/ODD/WIN XP SP3

Reply 6 of 17, by ildonaldo

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darry wrote on 2020-06-11, 10:58:

What's the max CPU speed before PCX2 starts crapping out ?

I've tried it with a AMD K6-2/500 and an Intel Pentium II/400 and both worked fine, but to be honest, there wasn't that massive performace boost that I've expected (as some of the more enthusiastic posts suggested).

PC #1: AMD 486DX2-80/UMC 8881/16MB SIMM/S3 Trio64V+/1.44/1GB HDD/ODD/DOS+Win3.1
PC #2: IDT W2A-200/SIS 5571/128MB SD/Millenium II+m3d/2.88+1.2 FDD/1GB HDD/ODD/Win95
PC #3: AthlonXP 3200+/nForce2-400/2GB-400 DDR1/9800Pro/ZIP 750/200GB HDD/ODD/WIN XP SP3

Reply 7 of 17, by ildonaldo

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BTW: I am also a great fan of the 3Dfx cards, but we never got friends before the Voodoo 3 as single card solution came out.

There was always, due to the Loop-through, this loss in video quality.
Working in grapic business, despite of the good 3D performace, this was always a no go for me.

So, even being some niche produkt by 1997, I preferred the m3D PowerVR over the voodoo 1 (that I also tried back then).

(the Voodoo Rush or the Banshee weren't really attractive for me - also tried both)

PC #1: AMD 486DX2-80/UMC 8881/16MB SIMM/S3 Trio64V+/1.44/1GB HDD/ODD/DOS+Win3.1
PC #2: IDT W2A-200/SIS 5571/128MB SD/Millenium II+m3d/2.88+1.2 FDD/1GB HDD/ODD/Win95
PC #3: AthlonXP 3200+/nForce2-400/2GB-400 DDR1/9800Pro/ZIP 750/200GB HDD/ODD/WIN XP SP3

Reply 8 of 17, by leileilol

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darry wrote on 2020-06-11, 10:58:

I always assumed the CPU was too fast for it .

I've never ran into any PCX2 issues with a P4 2.8ghz. Games look as they should but even better is the uncannyness of how smooth some games are in 320x240 once that pesky CPU bottleneck's out of the way (like for Unreal).
The filtering's supposed to be blocky in parts as it steps with texel differences, and is even worse for the alpha channels 😀

apsosig.png

Reply 9 of 17, by darry

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leileilol wrote on 2020-06-11, 11:46:
darry wrote on 2020-06-11, 10:58:

I always assumed the CPU was too fast for it .

I've never ran into any PCX2 issues with a P4 2.8ghz. Games look as they should but even better is the uncannyness of how smooth some games are in 320x240 once that pesky CPU bottleneck's out of the way (like for Unreal).
The filtering's supposed to be blocky in parts as it steps with texel differences, and is even worse for the alpha channels 😀

Thank you.
Maybe what I saw was normal, then . Someday I'll try it again and post screenshots or capture video .

Reply 10 of 17, by matze79

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The PCX1 has no filtering, but PCX2 does Bilinear.
Maybe you had PCX1 Card ?

The Card makes almost no sense if you don`t have at least a PII 300.
Or you`re sticking to SGL Games only.

At least you have MMX, which will help with some Titles.

But to be honest, the WinChip has only a 486 Style FPU 😀
Install some Games like Teracide, Overboard or maybe Forsaken.

Overboard was barely playable even with a 233MMX on the PCX1 NEC Chip.
And its a 1997 Game 😀

Still a nice Build!
The Same Computer 2000 Tower is on my Desk 😀

https://dosreloaded.de - The German Retro DOS PC Community
https://www.retroianer.de - under constructing since ever

Co2 - for a endless Summer

Reply 11 of 17, by ildonaldo

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A computer 2000 branch was just around my corner when I studied in Munich and I've looked at it windows with passion but not with envy - there were limits what I had been able to afford.

Now, that I grew older, I can afford some of the luxuries of the 90s but I don't fall into debauchery (still have to keep my purse tight).
I would like to run this board with a 266Mhz CPU* but it seems that Gigabyte had some flaw in it's documentation and it won't support any CPU beyond 200 MHz.

* got a K6/266 at hand

PC #1: AMD 486DX2-80/UMC 8881/16MB SIMM/S3 Trio64V+/1.44/1GB HDD/ODD/DOS+Win3.1
PC #2: IDT W2A-200/SIS 5571/128MB SD/Millenium II+m3d/2.88+1.2 FDD/1GB HDD/ODD/Win95
PC #3: AthlonXP 3200+/nForce2-400/2GB-400 DDR1/9800Pro/ZIP 750/200GB HDD/ODD/WIN XP SP3

Reply 12 of 17, by Tetrium

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ildonaldo wrote on 2020-06-11, 09:57:
I just brought up one of my favoured retro gaming machines from the cellar to check the Hardware and play some old games (e.g. M […]
Show full quote

I just brought up one of my favoured retro gaming machines from the cellar to check the Hardware and play some old games (e.g. Miss Lara).
The machine runs quite well (OK it's Windows 95) and I love the combination of the millenium and the m3D - back 1997 I had a Mystique + the m3d.
It even runs Tomb Raider 1 at 1024x768 with acceptable frame rates - a Voodoo 2 machine would need SLI to do that.

It's mostly 1997 hardware with a few exceptions:
- some of the drives are not exactly "on period"
- the IDT WinChip is one I own since release 1999 (used it as an upgrade for my single voltage Socket 7 board back then)

Hardware:
Board: GA-586S Rev. 1.22C, Socket 7, SIS 5571, AT-Board
CPU: IDT Winchip W2A-200, Socket 7, 200MHz, 66MHz FSB, single-voltage, MMX, 3DNow
RAM: 128MB EDO (2x64MB), SAMSUNG KMM53216004AK-6U, 60ns
2D-card: Matrox Millenium II, 4MB WRAM, PCI
3D- card: Matrox m3D, 4MB, PowerVR PCX2, PCI
Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Vibra 16XV, CT4170, ISA
HDD: Quantum Fireball lct10, 10.2 GB, ATA-66, IDE
ODD: CD-ROM 40x, LG CRD-8400B, IDE
FDD1: 2.88 MB, 3.5" floppy, Sony
FDD2: 1.2MB high-density, 5.25" floppy, Teac FD-55GR (NOS)
Case: NoName AT-Tower (frame embossed "1997")
PSU: FSP SPI-300G, AT, 300W (NOS)
OS: Windows 95 (incl. Updates)

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Nice!
Is your 2.88MB FDD a converted IBM unit or an original PC part? And do you use any of those disks by any chance? 😜

Nice build and nice parts you ended up using 😜

Don't see too many Winchip builds around 😜

ildonaldo wrote on 2020-06-11, 11:34:
BTW: I am also a great fan of the 3Dfx cards, but we never got friends before the Voodoo 3 as single card solution came out. […]
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BTW: I am also a great fan of the 3Dfx cards, but we never got friends before the Voodoo 3 as single card solution came out.

There was always, due to the Loop-through, this loss in video quality.
Working in grapic business, despite of the good 3D performace, this was always a no go for me.

So, even being some niche produkt by 1997, I preferred the m3D PowerVR over the voodoo 1 (that I also tried back then).

(the Voodoo Rush or the Banshee weren't really attractive for me - also tried both)

So does this mean that you have 3dfx rig on the way? 😜

Anonymous Coward wrote on 2020-06-11, 10:26:

It's a pretty cool build. Despite being ATX, the case looks exactly like the AT cases they were selling around 1997.

This was what I was thinking 😀

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
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Reply 13 of 17, by darry

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matze79 wrote on 2020-06-11, 16:10:
The PCX1 has no filtering, but PCX2 does Bilinear. Maybe you had PCX1 Card ? […]
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The PCX1 has no filtering, but PCX2 does Bilinear.
Maybe you had PCX1 Card ?

The Card makes almost no sense if you don`t have at least a PII 300.
Or you`re sticking to SGL Games only.

At least you have MMX, which will help with some Titles.

But to be honest, the WinChip has only a 486 Style FPU 😀
Install some Games like Teracide, Overboard or maybe Forsaken.

Overboard was barely playable even with a 233MMX on the PCX1 NEC Chip.
And its a 1997 Game 😀

Still a nice Build!
The Same Computer 2000 Tower is on my Desk 😀

My card is definitely a Matrox M3D, so it is a PCX2 .

Reply 14 of 17, by chinny22

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I've started getting interested in the "alternative" side of things
Winchip, M3D , even Win95 to a lesser extent. I like it.
Sure its not as compatible/flexible or best performance but still interesting to play with vs the masses of Intel/AMD and D3D/Glide rigs .

Reply 15 of 17, by ildonaldo

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chinny22 wrote on 2020-06-16, 12:08:

I've started getting interested in the "alternative" side of things
Winchip, M3D , even Win95 to a lesser extent. I like it.
Sure its not as compatible/flexible or best performance but still interesting to play with vs the masses of Intel/AMD and D3D/Glide rigs .

I would like to benchmark the m3d with the Winchip W2A VS a P1 MMX 200 if there is a noticable difference but only when I can a P1 cheap.
... but this will probably take some time.

PC #1: AMD 486DX2-80/UMC 8881/16MB SIMM/S3 Trio64V+/1.44/1GB HDD/ODD/DOS+Win3.1
PC #2: IDT W2A-200/SIS 5571/128MB SD/Millenium II+m3d/2.88+1.2 FDD/1GB HDD/ODD/Win95
PC #3: AthlonXP 3200+/nForce2-400/2GB-400 DDR1/9800Pro/ZIP 750/200GB HDD/ODD/WIN XP SP3

Reply 16 of 17, by ildonaldo

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Got now a Pentium MMX 200 MHz.

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Pentium MMX 200 MHz.
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The question is now what benchmarks to run to produce sigificant results with reasonable effort...

  • I will run Tomb Raider 1 as it is adapted to the PoverVR PCX2 of the matrox m3D
  • and 3DMark 99 as synthetic benchmark (if it works with Win95)
  • Unreal was also recommended - I've got the original Version but I never used it for benchmarking - is ther a HowTo?

any further suggestions for testing the impact of the CPU on the 3D-performance of the Matrox m3D?

PC #1: AMD 486DX2-80/UMC 8881/16MB SIMM/S3 Trio64V+/1.44/1GB HDD/ODD/DOS+Win3.1
PC #2: IDT W2A-200/SIS 5571/128MB SD/Millenium II+m3d/2.88+1.2 FDD/1GB HDD/ODD/Win95
PC #3: AthlonXP 3200+/nForce2-400/2GB-400 DDR1/9800Pro/ZIP 750/200GB HDD/ODD/WIN XP SP3

Reply 17 of 17, by matze79

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Unreal with 200MMX is not worth it 😀

Go Quake 2 😀

https://dosreloaded.de - The German Retro DOS PC Community
https://www.retroianer.de - under constructing since ever

Co2 - for a endless Summer