It’s a very interesting build..comgratulation!

It's well thought-through, I like it. Which ForceWare version is used on GTX 750?

Bruno128 wrote on 2023-12-28, 18:46:

It's well thought-through, I like it. Which ForceWare version is used on GTX 750?

Thank you, I'm using 368.81, the latest one for XP. I tried the previous one but I didn't notice any difference.

igna78 wrote on 2023-12-21, 14:41:

It’s a very interesting build..comgratulation!

Thank you!

Wow! This is absolutely epic. I have done similar projects here and here... but you have taken the concept to the logical limit.

I especially like the Fences software you used. There are a LOT of games, that must've taken awhile to install and organize!

You mention you don't like loading CDs or even Cue/Iso images... Did you NoCD patch all those games? Does the 480gb SSD hold all of it?

Congratulations!

Thank you! Seems we have similar goals, I'll be reading about your builds with much detail!

Yes, installing took a lot of weeks/months, but it's one of the parts I enjoy the most: hunting original install media on my language (Archive.org, Spanish retro forums, old filesharing networks...), finding out what installs and what not and why, testing on other Windows 98 and Windows 10 builds to discover the source of the problem, understanding dependencies, finding relationships between same era games, hunting for user made patches and wrappers and being amazed by the work individuals had put on those tools... and at the end having the best version of each game, running smoothly and looking gorgeous, plainly not like I played them back in the day (like lowest supported res and 20FPS).

Then yes, I proceeded to no-CD each game and I'm proud to have been successful on pretty much all of them. Also managing to make the CD-Audio music work from OGG or MP3 local files, which I missed back in the day as all I had were pirated rips. I started with a 240GB SSD but realized how many not-so-old games had DirectX9 compatibility, so I bought a bigger one. I'm still surprised how well Crysis, Dirt 3 or Dishonored run on this build at 4x FSAA.

There are still many games that I had to leave out, but as I was focusing on cheap used semi-old parts, I fount uninteresting spending big money on a larger drive. In some years, when SSDs get cheaper, I could easily migrate, or perhaps dual boot on Windows 7 and gain higher DirectX compatibility, the GTX 750Ti is very powerful.

DOS part is from a 300GB+ 7000+ games collection, ready to play in DOSBox under DBGL frontend, and are stored on my NAS, I then cherry picked some games and created shortcuts on the desktop. This way the collection can be ran from both my retro and modern builds, just using the latest Windows XP supported DBGL version (0.83).

Fences was something I already knew about, but on this case was really useful to group the games by category, and make a more appealing desktop. I was surprised the 1.0 freeware version was so complete, no doubt it was successful. Dexpot is also very useful and pretty to see.

What were some of the most fussy games where you spent the most effort getting to work?

Oh, under the constraints of this build, clearly Windows 98 Direct3D accelerated games (i.e. Windows Lucasarts games, specially Dark Forces 2, which neither runs on my modern Windows 11 rig using DGVoodoo2), because any Direct3D game using DirectX below 7 has corrupted graphics on Windows XP when using modern Geforce drivers . As I needed a low profile GPU my options were reduced, and the GTX750 had enough horsepower for late games, at expenses of compatibility with these older games. I also have a HD 7750 low profile, and doesn't have that compatibility problem, but struggles with later games, at the end you must make a choice.

MotoRacer 1 and 2 are also tricky, MotoRacer 2 liked the WineD3D wrapper, but original one doesn't. At the end I'm playing it in software mode via cnc-ddraw wrapper, it's something I'm still working on.

Theme Park World gave me headaches to run on Windows 11, at the end you needed to also copy some fonts to a folder and reboot the PC, here I think it was easier.

One of my all time favorite games, Carmageddon and SplatPack (I love bodywork deforming on racing games) is specially tricky. There are several ways to play the game:
- Basic DOS version at 320x200 resolution. Runs fine under DosBOX, although limited to 20-30 FPS due to poorly programming, not depending of CPU power. Note: if the CPU speed is too high the time counter runs faster than realtime. Cycles must be adjusted on DOSBox.
- Basic DOS version at 640x480, using the commandline parameter "-hires" and having 32MB of RAM on the system. Runs extremely slow, needs a pretty decent CPU. On DOSBox on my i3 it's playable but suboptimal. It'd need a native Windows98 powerful machine.
- 3dfx DOS version. Runs at 640x480 resolution but framerate is similar to the software mode version. I run it under DosBOX ECE plus nGlide installed systemwide. If it gives you problems, use the "-vrush" parameter to disable multitexturing support.
- Windows 95 version. Included in European CD, uses DirectX and runs silky smooth at monitor's refresh rate at 640x480. But has some bugs, crashing to desktop sometimes.
Running Carmageddon without CD is tricky but can be done without any crack (in fact there's no crack for Windows 95 versions). You need to:
- Copy the "Cutscenes" foder from CD to the installation folder.
- Edit de "PATHS.TXT" file to point to the install folder (if it's already encrypted you can use a tool like Carmagedit).
- Use de Voodoo2 patch executable, you can use the "-novoodoo" parameter to run in software mode.
- Optionally convert the soundtrack to OGG and use the winmm.dll wrapper OGG wrapper.

Games that run well on XP but not in modern Windows:
- Dark Forces 2, Ep1 Racer (modern patch breaks Z-buffer), all Lucasarts games give several problems.
- C&C Red Alert 2 Installation program (I wasn't able to run it no matter what I tried).
- Motorhead, even with DGVoodoo2 ran very slow. It's important choosing the correct patch version depending on the install CD version.
- Commandos.
- POD Gold: Direct3D version is tricky, 3dfx version plus nGlide runs ok, better than in Modern Windows. PodHacks tool is handy in both scenarios.
- Many others (Black&White, Serious Sam...), they simply install and run without having to apply fixes and wrappers.

Games that aren't running on my build (yet):
- Need for Speed SE DirectX version: managed installer to work, and I fixed the error about memory being to high, but gives another error and crashes. Needs a very time correct build, specially the video card.

Another interesting discoveries:
- Ignition with 3dfx executable crashes to desktop at the end of a championship, no matter it's a modern or old Windows OS.
- Ignition software version suffers a random "continuous loop of explosions" bug ingame if the CPU speed is too high. Other times, it simply crashes to desktop. Cycles must be lowered down in DOSBox.
- Expendable can run with the water effects originally exclusive to Matrox videocards, using a patch.
- Fire Fight: it crashes on Windows XP and later because of a bad call to a function the programmers did. But it's fixable.
- Forsaken has a patch available on all the languages it was released... but the spanish version (it's lost probably forever).

Thanks for these fascinating insights, it's incredible how much time you put into getting all those games installed in Windows XP.

In general I found (as you did), that early Direct3D games tend to be the most problematic. If available, I found it beneficial to set the game to Glide and use a wrapper. I like to run Need for Speed Porsche 2000 using nGlide (Radeon 5770 under Windows XP). The 3DSetup thinks I have a Voodoo2, but nGlide outputs 1280x1024 32-bit in races. As a bonus, Windows XP lets me use an official Xbox 360 wireless controller with analog triggers for gas/brake.

Is Need For Speed SE any better in DirectX, versus DOS (DOSBox)? As far as I'm aware they'd be the same graphically. Is controller / gamepad support support better under Windows?

Yes, the games with a 3dfx version make things much easier as you can run them via nGlide/DGVoodoo2. With higher resolution, extra FSAA and AFx16, neither available on the original video cards, it's a real showcase.

Porsche 2000 is such a beautiful game, I loved it back in the day, and in 32 bit color the smooth reflections on cars and the dawn and sunset lighting mood look gorgeous.

On modern Windows it also shows another problem: input devices show duplicated many times, making the controls setup section completely unresponsive. The solution is using this DirectInput wrapper that allows to whitelist only the device you want the game to see.

I haven't yet been able to run the DirectX version of NFS SE on any of my builds, so I cannot compare, I should test it on PCEm once and for all.

I have to say your build is great and probably the most resource efficient build for a decent Win XP experience.

If I had discovered some of the "not so retro hardware but runs retro software" builds on this forum earlier I think I would have stuck with the modern builds. I never expected retro hardware to be so expensive and so difficult to get nowadays. Ebay is off limits to a lot of people like me who want to make a budget retro XP build. Most decent retro motherboards are so expensive. It seems building a relatively modern PC that can still run XP is the better deal.

Also have to appreciate your great collection of games. Some of them like Diablo 2 and Max Payne were my childhood favourites.

Hans Tork wrote on 2024-01-10, 20:18:

I never expected retro hardware to be so expensive and so difficult to get nowadays.

386 and older, yes.
A good WinXP computer is a free curbside pickup on trash day. If you don't believe me, try selling a s775 board yourself and see how much reactions you get.

Bruno128 wrote on 2024-01-11, 08:37:

Hans Tork wrote on 2024-01-10, 20:18:

I never expected retro hardware to be so expensive and so difficult to get nowadays.

386 and older, yes.
A good WinXP computer is a free curbside pickup on trash day. If you don't believe me, try selling a s775 board yourself and see how much reactions you get.

Pardon me for I am bit of a greenhorn when it comes to retro tech/hardware.

I made my first "retro" childhood PC based off on Ebay components using a 478 dell dimension 3000 board but I was flabbergasted by how expensive some of the 478 socket boards were. This was in addition to the rarity of getting top end PCI only cards. I was advised by the forum that 775 or even 1156/1155 socket boards would be cheaper and more accessible but they were not close to what I had in my childhood XP PC.

While cheap Dell boards are going for 15-20 USD on Ebay the more expensive or premium ones are selling for 40-50 USD at the minimum. I think the 775 or the later ones are indeed a lot more cheaper but 478 socket board prices are creeping up. Also it is hard to get peripherals for the 478 systems unless you use cheap converters. I even had issues with the cooler for the CPU. Every little adjustment added up to the cost for the PC I had envisaged.

Hans Tork wrote on 2024-01-11, 11:01:

While cheap Dell boards are going for 15-20 USD on Ebay the more expensive or premium ones are selling for 40-50 USD at the minimum.

Listed, not “selling”. The exorbitant prices you name are meant for businesses replacing specific part numbers in their industrial solutions. It’s a niche of refurbished/re-certified market with naturally little supply.
For playing old games you don’t have that constraint and can spend anywhere between 0 and infinity, of course.

Bruno128 wrote on 2024-01-11, 11:46:

Hans Tork wrote on 2024-01-11, 11:01:

While cheap Dell boards are going for 15-20 USD on Ebay the more expensive or premium ones are selling for 40-50 USD at the minimum.

Listed, not “selling”. The exorbitant prices you name are meant for businesses replacing specific part numbers in their industrial solutions. It’s a niche of refurbished/re-certified market with naturally little supply.
For playing old games you don’t have that constraint and can spend anywhere between 0 and infinity, of course.

You might be right. I have little to no experience when it comes to judging the right price for retro parts.

However what I meant was higher end motherboards for the 478 socket like those from Asus/Gigabyte etc. The ones I found were all in the 40-50 or even higher end of things.

S478 was always going to go up. AGP, IDE, native Win9x support and now that earlier boards are becoming rare/expensive demand for P4 boards is also going up.
Not helped by the cap plague also killing of boards and reducing stock.

Not counting the few special 775 boards with 9x or AGP support, I'm not sure if they will ever become desirable. At the moment they are great value for XP builds but so will 1156 when they start flooding the market.

Another Dell computer model is Optiplex 990 that uses sandy bridge processors supports XP. Another for same is HP Elitedesk 8200 series.

Ivy Sandy supported XP computer is HP Elitedesk 8300 series. This also you can find small one in USFF with MXM slot for GPU as long as you can find one that has HP video bios firmware in it.

Cheers,

pentiumspeed wrote on 2024-01-12, 00:57:

Another Dell computer model is Optiplex 990 that uses sandy bridge processors supports XP. Another for same is HP Elitedesk 8200 series.

Ivy Sandy supported XP computer is HP Elitedesk 8300 series. This also you can find small one in USFF with MXM slot for GPU as long as you can find one that has HP video bios firmware in it.

Cheers,

Interesting, didn't know about the MXM slot at all, do you have a list of GPUs that you could connect there? I choose the Dell over the HP because its smaller dimensions, on my desk it allows more clearance to place the mouse and keyboard.

I've started from scratch again to discover why the color palette corrupts on DirectX games like it happens in 7/Vista and... so far it hasn't happened again. I applied all the patches through Legacy Update, and installed many of the old games, and it hasn't happened. So I'll continue installing back more games to try to find the root cause. It's good news because it makes cnc-ddraw not needed on most of the cases.

BTW I'm also trying to solve the graphical corruption due to broken Nvidia drivers. I already have a Radeon HD7750 low profile that doesn't have that problem, but unfortunately has worse performance than the GTX 750ti on newer games (i.e. Overlord), and also has four mini-DisplayPorts so I must use a DP to VGA converter, which limits my refresh rate options on Windows XP as I discovered later.

So I've seen more videos from Phil and discovered the R7 250 is still XP compatible and pretty powerful, and has DVI-I port, so I ordered one overseas, and I'm willing to test it with old DirectX5-6 games and recent games, to see if is the optimal definitive solution for all the spectrum of gaming.

Hans Tork wrote on 2024-01-10, 20:18:

I have to say your build is great and probably the most resource efficient build for a decent Win XP experience.

If I had discovered some of the "not so retro hardware but runs retro software" builds on this forum earlier I think I would have stuck with the modern builds. I never expected retro hardware to be so expensive and so difficult to get nowadays. Ebay is off limits to a lot of people like me who want to make a budget retro XP build. Most decent retro motherboards are so expensive. It seems building a relatively modern PC that can still run XP is the better deal.

Also have to appreciate your great collection of games. Some of them like Diablo 2 and Max Payne were my childhood favourites.

Thank you, yes that's exactly the point of this build, if you just want to play all these games, on the same build, and with minimal problems, is the moment to get these cheap parts together.

BTW yes, I just started playing Max Payne a few days ago, with 3D sound via DSOAL-XP and fixed the crashes to desktop on XP and later with this script, and I'm having a blast, this game was so good, but it struggled to run on my build back in the day. Also Diablo, which I didn't play back then but discovered not so long ago and enjoyed on my ultrawide monitor, this source port is highly recommended.