Glidos as shim

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Glidos as shim

Postby Chuck McManis » 2003-5-07 @ 05:18

Hello all, a long time ago, in a different time and space I wrote some 3D code that used Glide (see http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/3d/) And heard about Glidos recently, would it be possible to use it as a shim so that my code would work again?

I have thought about getting DX9 working but Glide was such a nice interface to work with it seemed a shame.

--Chuck
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Postby Schadenfreude » 2003-5-07 @ 06:17

After reading your website, apparently your program requires Windows, not DOS. Thus, you don't need GliDOS. You need OpenGlide.

The difference:
GliDOS provides a DOS Glide->Windows Glide interface converter as presented via a server-client design. GliDOS is like a DOS client and a Windows server. The server loads a Glide2x library in its original Glide2x.dll form, either a Glide->Direct3D or Glide->OpenGL wrapper (or Glide-to-some-other-API wrapper) OR an actual 3dfx Glide library file, and forwards all DOS Glide calls from GliDOS's custom Glide2x.OVL replacement to the library file in question.
http://www.glidos.net

However, GliDOS comes setup to use, and comes with, OpenGlide.
Windows-based games and other Glide-using apps do not need the full GliDOS system to run in Glide mode on modern computer systems. All they need is either official Glide support via a 3dfx card (which is indeed possible in Windows NT/2000/XP), or a Glide wrapper like the one used by GliDOS. This part of GliDOS is called OpenGlide and is distributed free of charge; you do not need to buy Glidos to use it. OpenGlide was originally written by Fabio Barros, and updated by the author of Glidos, Paul Gardiner.
OpenGLide is a Glide to OpenGL wrapper. It simulates a Voodoo board so you can run old Windows Glide games by translating Glide calls into OpenGL.
http://openglide.sf.net

Since your support request is Windows-oriented, one of the moderators will have to move this post to the appropriate, OpenGlide forum.

(There are competing wrappers out there BTW - a very good one for Direct3D is called eVoodoo - http://evoodoo.emulation64.com)

Either Windows or DOS version, provided your programs are not statically compiled with the Glide library or not using Glide3 calls or utilizing some sort of Voodoo card detection routines (reading PCI IDs or something), it should hopefully work. Old Glide 2.1x calls support are soon coming to OpenGlide hopefully, Glide 3.x is far in the future. Providing a workaround for statically compiled binaries is even further in the future if not impossible.

I hope this answers your questions.

BTW, since you used to work for Sun and Intel, if you are a Glide and OpenGL developer, OpenGlide could always use further development, and it's open-source GPL. :D

Furthermore, if you actually attempted to develop for the NV1 and still have development material, there's one or two moderators (Nicht Sehr Gut and Stiletto) who will have tons of questions for you. Did you really obtain a development kit, etc.? Do you still have them? Search our forums, you'll see why they're interested - the DirectX versions of the OEM NV1 games pale beside their NV1-native games, and they're hoping someone can either hack a better conversion or make a generic "wrapper" for NV1's... :D
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Postby Schadenfreude » 2003-5-07 @ 06:29

For a test for Paul and Fabio, see Chuck's SceneTest simple demo:
http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/3d/p3dc/downloads/scenetest.zip

Needless to say, I cannot get it working. Maybe Chuck's Project: 3D Craft was written for Glide 2.1x? Test, test boyos...
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Postby Schadenfreude » 2003-5-07 @ 06:37

It's working with eVoodoo. Maybe it's my videocard and/or OpenGL drivers then? (ATI Rage 128 Mobility M4)
Or the configuration:
CreateWindow=1
InitFullScreen=1
EnableMipMaps=0
IgnorePaletteChange=0
EnableFog=1
EnablePrecisionFix=1
EnableMultiTextureEXT=1
EnablePaletteEXT=1
EnableVertexArrayEXT=0
EnableFogCoordEXT=1
TextureMemorySize=16
WrapperPriority=2
FrameBufferMemorySize=8

using OpenGlide v0.09a1.

Should work, simple Glide 2.x program... damn it...

(eVoodoo is closed-source, Chuck... not good for us open-source types...)
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Postby Glidos » 2003-5-07 @ 08:11

Interesting. I'll take a look when I get some time.
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Postby Chuck McManis » 2003-5-08 @ 03:52

Hmmm, lots of questions, lets see if I can answer them...

Yes the P3DC was all done on Glide 2.x. The 3.x stuff was still flakey and as the video cards were backwards compatible there wasn't an incentive to move on. It works on my Voodoo 1, 2, and Banshee (3500) boards. I got SLI mode working for a bit, but have not worked on it in a while (I have a _lot_ of hobbies :-))

At one time, I had a fairly complete set of working docs on the NV1. I happen to be friends with a one of the founders of nVidia (he was at Sun first) and after doing the Sun "GX" card he wanted to bring workstation level graphics to the PC. The problem is that the NV1 is a NURBs based design NOT a triangles based design. And while you can create a perfect sphere with 6 NURBs you need about 120 - 200 triangles to get it right. The NV1 libraries for D3D essentially used the NURB engine to render "flat" triangular NURBs. This was pretty criminal. Ask any 3DSMax or Maya artist how many NURBs vs triangles they have on their models. The NV1 can render the NURBs directly. Anyway, I'll dig around be so far I've only found the original board, Sega game controller, and install CD. I'm a bit concerned the docs may be on some 5.25" floppies that got tossed a couple of years ago. (sad but true, and from a guy who has PDP-11's no less!)

What's the status of OpenGL these days? It seems like Microsoft sucked it dry and then left it to die. Is SGI still suing anyone who trys to use it for patent infringement? One of the things I _really_ want is a Glide library for FreeBSD (1st choice, Linux second choice) that will let me continue my explorations with helping the evil empire at all. At one point I thought Java3D might be the answer but Sun's proven they can screw up anything without trying too hard :-) Whoops I'm getting all melancholy.

Thanks for the pointers, if I can answer any questions email them if I don't see them here.

--Chuck
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Postby Snover » 2003-5-11 @ 08:00

Wowwy, Chuck, you seem like a veritable goldmine of information for all parties concerned. Hope you stick around and register ;)

I moved this to the OpenGLide forum because, it's OpenGLide, not GliDOS. Like Schadenfreude said.
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Postby Nicht Sehr Gut » 2003-5-12 @ 04:49

Originally posted by Chuck McManis [B]At one time, I had a fairly complete set of working docs on the NV1. I happen to be friends with a one of the founders of nVidia (he was at Sun first) and after doing the Sun "GX" card he wanted to bring workstation level graphics to the PC. The problem is that the NV1 is a NURBs based design NOT a triangles based design...
Holy cow...Ghosts of the past:
http://www.vogons.org/showthread.php?threadid=14
and
http://www.vogons.org/showthread.php?threadid=79&perpage=20&highlight=nv1&pagenumber=2

The NV1/Sega Saturn "link" has never been satisfactorily explained.

Also, I now realize that I had dismissed the low-res "VESA" video modes. Had forgotten as I was only concentrating on the "high-resolution" part of the discussion. But VESA did expand the options for low-res as well (like "HiColor" and "TrueColor" for 320x200, etc...) as this link describes.
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More NV1 stuff

Postby Chuck McManis » 2003-5-12 @ 06:29

Someone got it close to right, the graphics chip in the Saturn was NURBs based and the NV1 was NURBs based so Sega decided on this "deal" with nVidia where the official "Sega PC" would be one with an NV1 in it. Good for nVidia, compatibility for Sega, etc etc. I bought the thing on the strength of some fighting game.

Anyway, it did suck for Direct3D (triangle weenies that they were) and so it was considered a huge failure at nVidia (and the 3DFx guys nailed triangles with the Voodoo1) and yes, the NV1 was the _first_ 3D engine available, followed by the S3 VirGE stuff.
--Chuck
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Postby Snover » 2003-5-12 @ 19:46

Now, just to explain this to me a bit, are NURBs akin to voxels?
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Postby HunterZ » 2003-5-12 @ 19:58

Snover wrote:Now, just to explain this to me a bit, are NURBs akin to voxels?
*cough*Google*cough*
You're perfect, yes it's true...but without me, you're only you.
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Postby Chuck McManis » 2003-5-12 @ 20:46

http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/quicktime/qtdevdocs/QD3D/qd3dgeometry.2f.htm

Not like voxels at all. In most 3D modelling programas you can use NURBs to create your characters and then you tesselate them into triangles. (billions and billions of triangles ;-)) The NV1 is a NURB machine.

If anyone wants one (Edge3D version) let me know and I can probably pack it up and send it to you with the original install disk, Virtual Fighter and Panzer Dragoon.

--Chuck
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