DOSBOX fork with better FM synthesis?

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Re: DOSBOX fork with better FM synthesis?

Postby nukeykt » 2016-8-17 @ 16:05

James-F wrote:It's the exact same file reposted

Are you sure?
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Lion YMF719.mp3
Old
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Lion YMF719 (1).mp3
New
(2.13 MiB) Downloaded 26 times
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Re: DOSBOX fork with better FM synthesis?

Postby James-F » 2016-8-17 @ 16:13

Open Volume Conterol (right bottom corner).
Click Options -> Properties.
Enable "3D WIDE" from the list, click OK.
Mute "3D WIDE".

Alternative:
Control Panel -> OPL3-SAx Config.
Lower "3D Enhanced Ymersion" fader to zero.

Are you sure?

The only thing I did is to remove the audio isolation transformer (prevent ground loop noises) because it highpassed the signal therefor removing the low bass.
But apparently there is a bug as you knowledgeably guessed, and you were right.
I can recreate and fix the bug by switching midi outputs and going back to FM output.
Strange bug indeed.

I'll re-post the proper recording of the YMF719 yet again!
This time I hope it'll sound just as the YMF262, which it should.

EDIT:
Fixed.
Now a proper YMF719 (tagged V3) recording is on the first page.
It sound exactly the same as the YMF262 or NukedOPL3 recordings.


I want to address Dosbox developers;
I believe Nuked-OPL3 should replace dosbox OPL emulation as it is undoubtedly the most accurate as many examples on this thread suggest.
Many other popular mainstream OPL software already implemented nuked-OPL3 and DOSBox should do too.
It may be to bold of a request, but we strive for accuracy don't we?
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Re: DOSBOX fork with better FM synthesis?

Postby evgs » 2016-8-17 @ 17:17

I agree with you, the sound of nuked OPL3 emulation core is more accurate than others.

Here is prince of persia FLAC recorded from Sound Blaster 16 CT1740 (YMF262-M):
http://hwm.us.to/famimusic/Upload/Prince%20of%20Persia%201989%20-%20Intro%20(YMF262).flac
vs the nuked emu:
http://hwm.us.to/famimusic/Upload/pop_nuked_emu.flac :happy:
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Re: DOSBOX fork with better FM synthesis?

Postby leileilol » 2016-8-17 @ 23:00

it should be, nuke decapped the fucking thing. which made the (now edited) doubts on the previous pages appear much more childish
Voodoo2s aren't 100mhz stock
Geforce256 isn't released as a beta on New Years '99 under the Quadro brand
DOS gaming isn't a bilinear 320x200 16:10
DOS PCs aren't better than the Macintosh
DOSBox is not for running Windows 9x
SGL != Glide
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Re: DOSBOX fork with better FM synthesis?

Postby Stretch » 2016-8-18 @ 00:39

I have no FM MIDI devices in Windows98 so the Falcon MIDI player didn't play through the OPL chip.

I rebooted into MS-DOS and instead use Yamaha's FMMIDI.exe.

I prefer Nuked now as I can easily hear how dry the YMF-744 is.
Attachments
lion10-ymf744.mp3
Yamaha YMF-744
(2.12 MiB) Downloaded 43 times
Win98SE - Intel SE440BX-2 - Pentium II 233 Mhz - 256 MB System Ram - Voodoo 3 1000 AGP - Yamaha YMF-724 PCI - Soundblaster 32 ISA
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Re: DOSBOX fork with better FM synthesis?

Postby James-F » 2016-8-18 @ 04:52

Actually, the YMF744 should sound exactly the same as the 719/718, 262 or Nuked-opl3.
This is just another bad recording and in mono.

To properly compare the recordings they have to be at least similar sounding and volume matched.
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Re: DOSBOX fork with better FM synthesis?

Postby James-F » 2016-8-19 @ 06:49

@nukeyk

Here is how to disable 3D, Ymersion, and put treble and bass to 0 (flat) on the YMF718 cards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_L_1tvH1Ew

The 718 is slightly different than the 719 so you probably did not see the settings I was mentioning.
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Re: DOSBOX fork with better FM synthesis?

Postby James-F » 2016-8-21 @ 13:34

So the question is will nukedopl.patch be part of DOSBox next SVN?
Can the devs give any negative reason of why not to implement this?
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Re: DOSBOX fork with better FM synthesis?

Postby Dominus » 2016-8-21 @ 13:56

Is it in their patch tracker?
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Re: DOSBOX fork with better FM synthesis?

Postby nukeykt » 2016-8-21 @ 15:01

Dominus wrote:Is it in their patch tracker?

Do you mean in sourceforge or patches forum here?
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Re: DOSBOX fork with better FM synthesis?

Postby Dominus » 2016-8-21 @ 15:45

SF seems to work better
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Re: DOSBOX fork with better FM synthesis?

Postby James-F » 2016-8-23 @ 05:38

Here is an example where DOSBox Fast or Compat is absolutely wrong in very popular game (and my favorite)!

Mortal Kombat 2 intro:
Nuked-OPL sounds exactly like YMF719.
DOSBox-Fast has higher pitched clicking sound, has various pitch issues.
DOSBox-Compat has completely different Kick AND clicking sounds, the worst pitch issues and completely different to the original OPL.

This is not a slight difference, this is very obvious.
* Put your headphones on because speaker may not represent the difference clearly.
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MK2 OPL.7z
YMF719, Nuked, Fast, Compat
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Re: DOSBOX fork with better FM synthesis?

Postby KainXVIII » 2016-8-23 @ 08:39

Still, don't hear any difference in MK2 intro on my speakers, maybe this fork is only for audiophiles :cool:
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Re: DOSBOX fork with better FM synthesis?

Postby James-F » 2016-8-23 @ 08:53

Yeah you definitely need a good pair of headphones and a trained ear, but the difference is there and quite obvious once you spot it.
If you are a musician you should be trained to discern individual instruments in a mix simply by focusing on them without a problem.

Start by listening to the KICK drum between the Nuked and Compat tracks, this is the most obvious difference.
Now listen for sharper ticking sound on the Fast track compared to Nuked.

The fact that DOSBox OPL emulation is less accurate and clearly audible in comparison to Nuked should be a quite sufficient reason for the devs to simple go ahead and implement Nuked-OPL in DOSBox.
It's not like nukeykt is asking for royalties... :cool:
Last edited by James-F on 2016-8-23 @ 09:50, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: DOSBOX fork with better FM synthesis?

Postby KainXVIII » 2016-8-23 @ 09:46

James-F wrote:Yeah you definitely need a good pair of headphones and a trained ear, but the difference is there and quite obvious once you spot it.
If you are a musician you should be trained to discern individual instruments in a mix simply by focusing on them without a problem.

Start by listening to the KICK drum between the Nuked and Compat tracks, this is the most obvious difference.
Now listen for sharper ticking sound on the Fast track compared to Nuked.

Yeah, with my headphones i hear slight difference, but if you had not told me where, maybe i never found out myself :dead:
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Re: DOSBOX fork with better FM synthesis?

Postby James-F » 2016-8-25 @ 19:35

Starting at second 00:08 till the end the lead instrument is completely different with the the ES1688.
Strangely this is the only instrument that sounds different, all others sound exactly the same between the three.

Now what is more accurate, the ES1688 which is known to have very accurate OPL3 or YMF/Nuked?
Can someone with a SB-PRO 2 card record the Stunts intro screen (with the blue car), to verify this?
Attachments
Stunts 2 OPL YMF719.mp3
(341.92 KiB) Downloaded 48 times
Stunts 2 OPL Nuked.mp3
It sound like the YMF719
(350.73 KiB) Downloaded 51 times
Stunts 2 OPL ES1688.mp3
(311.36 KiB) Downloaded 49 times
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Re: DOSBOX fork with better FM synthesis?

Postby James-F » 2016-8-26 @ 09:47

Another example where Nuked OPL is different to the ES1688-OPL.
I believe it's the same waveform that sounds different on the Stunts track.

Right away you can hear the clicks are more metallic with Nuked-OPL and the Saxophone instrument is "wobbly" and un-even.
The ES1688 here sounds better to me as with the Stunts example.
Attachments
War Nuked-OPL.mp3
(1.04 MiB) Downloaded 59 times
War ES1688.mp3
(1.03 MiB) Downloaded 70 times
Last edited by James-F on 2016-8-27 @ 09:00, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: DOSBOX fork with better FM synthesis?

Postby James-F » 2016-8-26 @ 11:38

I got a reply from nukeykt and I want to share it:
nukeykt wrote:ESS's opl3 clone is not perfect. I heard doom's e1m1 on ess card on youtube. Dist guitar sounded slightly wrong compared to real OPL3(ymf262 and 718). Also check out opl3 comparison videos with alloyrun and wheelchair tracks from at2 on youtube.
I think ess's opl3 has incorrect feedback algorithm(like in many clones), which never was described in OPLx datasheets and manuals. Feedback first correctly was emulated in MAME's OPL emulators. DOSBox, Nuked, Java OPL3 and many others use MAME's feedback findings. I also rcently verified feedback on Nuked OPL3 and got bit-perfect sample compared to YMF262 OPL3.


Then there is this post by jwt27 which explains the same including an audio example:
http://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=32411#p268217

And finally there are these examples of all variant of the OPL chips including the ESS one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6IITanvS6Y
Files: https://www.mediafire.com/folder/kw7rmycagwqqv//Comparison%20Video

So the ES1688 OPL is different to the original YMF262 OPL3 chip.
One might like the other more, but there is only one true master when it comes to accuracy: YMF262 (or Nuked-OPL).
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Re: DOSBOX fork with better FM synthesis?

Postby James-F » 2016-8-28 @ 11:09

For people who compiled Nuked-OPL with DOSBox SVN or using the provided SVN-3990+Nuked by nukeykt in the Patch subforum.
Make absolutely sure that both the Mixer and oplrate set to 49716 in DOSBox config else there is high level of harmonic distortion in the OPL emulation.
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Re: DOSBOX fork with better FM synthesis?

Postby nukeykt » 2016-9-08 @ 13:07

arrock1.mid and lion10.mid played on OPL2 chip:
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lion10-ym3812.mp3
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arrock1-ym3812.mp3
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