Servo wrote:

For SQ3, I don't think running MT-32 music with Sound Blaster sounds would be a great idea; majority of the sampled sounds are from the MT-32 version so the MT-32 actually sounds better for sound effects! There's some exceptions like the "where am i" speech, but otherwise not really worth the effort.

I don't understand what you're saying here. The MT-32 doesn't support sampled sounds. Are you saying that they recorded some sounds from the MT-32 to use as sampled sounds on other sound hardware?

HunterZ wrote:

Are you saying that they recorded some sounds from the MT-32 to use as sampled sounds on other sound hardware?

correct

Here's a suggestion: let's limit ourselves to discussing observable results of original-release games on original hardware, i.e. not "I remember the DPS (Death Pirates Society) release of the collection version looking different on my GeForce card..."

Hear hear, a noble suggestion. Now all we have to do is buy the hardware and software! For myself I am looking to start with an IBM PCJr. I also am always on the lookout for a late-model IBM PC AT or XT 286 with a fully upgraded IBM EGA card. Also, I would seriously consider buying a PS/2 Model 35 or 40.

It didn't; I have the original 16-color version disks. Whoever put it on some "Abandonware" site probably just put in whatever driver he could find; I've seen such a messy version of "Jones in the Fast Lane" as well.

The 16 color Version of King's Quest V I downloaded has no less than five CGA graphics options in its install menu! I have seen all of these graphics options in SCI0 games, but not all five at once. Here is the title screen from each:

NewRisingSun wrote:

Where do people get this crap that Sierra didn't ship SQ3 with a driver with sample playback functionality? It routinely pops up on message boards and on ill-informed websites. Sierra did ship version 1.0P with a "Tandy 1000 SL/TL" driver, which can play back digital samples, and Sierra did ship the original floppy version 1.018 with a SNDBLAST.DRV on its 3.5" diskette.

Well, I only have 1.018 from the SQ collection, but I do have what appears to be a proper copy of 1.0P. I tried the Tandy SL support (I assume you mean the driver TANDY.DRV) both on MESS and DOSBox, and they both didn't play the speech line "where am I". Apparently, neither emulator has a proper support for this device (in DOSBox it even causes the game to freeze right after Roger jumps from his pod). For some reason, I have a driver called BLASTER2.DRV in my 1.0P copy, and it works fine in 1.0P and in 1.018. I haven't seen this driver anywhere else, did you encounter it? The two SNDBLAST.DRVs from spacequest.net and the one from KQ1SCI also work fine.

Early KQ4 versions (1.000.111, SCI version < 0.300) display the green-red-brown palette with a blue background, at least on a VGA card.

Really? Well, I used v1.006.003 for the screenshots, have to find a copy of the earlier version one day... but isn't the green/red/brown palette ("the AGI palette") is what you get by using CGA320B.DRV? Are you sure that's the palette produced by using CGA320C.DRV in this version of KQ4SCI?

You can also get the brown palette witht he -r command line option. If you didn't do that either, you either didn't use a CGA but maybe a Tandy/Jr (which uses the same kind of RGB monitor that the CGA uses), or your memory is betraying you. AGI games boot up in composite 640x200 mode, which appears in B&W on a CGA with RGB monitor, period. That's what the AGI reference card says as well.

No, I didn't know about any command line options then, and I definitely didn't use a Tandy or a PCjr... only option left is that our memory is betraying us... 😒 I can't believe I played them in b&w... so you're saying there's no way the pink/cyan/white/black palette would be displayed on a CGA? So maybe we did use Ctrl-R, but I don't think I typed on a blue background... is there a possibility the AGI RGB palette won't have a blue background?

Servo wrote:

The Maniac Mansion screenshot should be accurate; it really does use the white/cyan/pink/palette on a CGA card.

Well, at least I remembered my very first adventure correctly 😀 too bad I can't remember the ones that followed.

I didn't think keeping the "CGA on VGA" shots around was worthwhile as it's not really accurate, just caused by a VGA card not being fully CGA compatible.

Yeah, but that's a unique palette. The least your screenshots could do would be to explain this palette to people who think it's a legitimate palette or for those that saw it in NAGI.

NewRisingSun wrote:

SQ3 was released on March 24th 1989, version 1.018 in April 1990. The Sound Blaster was released in November 1989. Version 1.018 fixes a lot of other stuff, not just adding Sound Blaster support. Version 1.0P's samples were probably originally intended for the Tandy DAC chip, as I wrote.

Whatever the 1.0P samples were intended for, once this version is provided with a proper SNDBLAST.DRV they sound just like 1.018's samples (at least the "where am I" line), so they didn't actually "add" SB support, they just added the driver. As for the other changes, I don't know what they are. By the way, when I run v1.018, it says 1989 in the title screen, and there's no date in the "about" window.
I remember there was also version 1.052, what's the deal with that?

It didn't; I have the original 16-color version disks. Whoever put it on some "Abandonware" site probably just put in whatever driver he could find;

Well, that's the only place I saw the blue and AGI drivers. For some reason they work on EGA versions of SCI1 games.

HunterZ wrote:

I later tried a driver from - I think - QfG2 on a whim and was surprised to hear the "where am I?" in the intro. However, I haven't since been able to get this working. Has someone written a FAQ or thread on this that you can point me to?

The SNDBLAST.DRV from QFG2 (v1.105) causes both version 1.0P and 1.018 of SQ3 to crash. The one from KQ1SCI (v1.000.051) works fine on both of them, perhaps you took it from there.
spacequest.net provide support for this subject; it has two SNDBLAST.DRV that you can download and use with SQ3, and it works fine under DOSBox.

Great Hierophant wrote:

Hear hear, a noble suggestion. Now all we have to do is buy the hardware and software! For myself I am looking to start with an IBM PCJr. I also am always on the lookout for a late-model IBM PC AT or XT 286 with a fully upgraded IBM EGA card. Also, I would seriously consider buying a PS/2 Model 35 or 40.

Heh, I was so happy to give away my XT+CGA when I upgraded to AT+VGA, but now it doesn't seem like it was a very wise decision... 😖

The 16 color Version of King's Quest V I downloaded has no less than five CGA graphics options in its install menu! I have seen all of these graphics options in SCI0 games, but not all five at once. Here is the title screen from each:

Nice, I like stuff like that... you should repost your CGA modes summarizing but this time with screenshots 😀
By the way, screenshots #3 and #4 (from the top) of your KQ5 screenshots will look different on a VGA.

Many important graphics cards are hard to find.

I have had difficulty finding true Hercules-manufactured Hercules Graphics Cards in the wild. (Though I did see a Hercules Plus, which allows you to load custom fonts, on ebay last week, and it looked exactly like IBM's MDA card. It came in a Red box.)

IBM's EGA cards are not easy to find at all. Most only come with the basic 64KB of RAM. There were two additional RAM upgrades to obtain the maximum 256KB of RAM. Fortunately, I doubt if any EGA game required more than 128KB (anything above that is only supposed to allow for extra pages, not extra graphics capabilities.)

I don't think IBM ever made an ISA based VGA card, and even if they did it would have been so obscure I would never have heard about it, so I suggest going for an early to mid-PS/2 for true IBM VGA. Their PS/1 line of machines may also have included their VGA, but I believe that other VGA boards would have been more featured and they would have gone with them instead.

By the way, I know that the MCGA adapter, featured in IBM PS/2 Models 25 and 30, allowed you to select any of 256K colors available in Mode 13 when you were displaying graphics in Mode 4. I think it would follow that the MCGA would also allows you to select the background color in Mode 6. I assume that this was unintentional on Sierra's part. If the MCGA allows it, then the VGA should as well.

I am pretty sure because my KQ4SCI shows the red/green/brown palette, my version is 1.000.111, released on September 23, 1988. I downloaded this cracked copy from somewhere because I couldn't stand the copy protection question every time the game started. (My King's Quest Collection copy is a newer version.)

or maybe an Adlib/Soundblaster driver that only used the OPL chip).

Did it come on 5.25" or on 3.5" floppy disks? On my single 1.018 SQ3, the SNDBLAST.DRV was only on the 3.5" floppy disk. It's also possible that you had your Sound Blaster set to IRQ 5; SQ3's SNDBLAST.DRV only works with IRQ 7.

HunterZ wrote:

I later tried a driver from - I think - QfG2 on a whim and was surprised to hear the "where am I?" in the intro. However, I haven't since been able to get this working.

That certainly would not work, as QfG2 is an SCI1 game, while SQ3 is an SCI0 game; the sound driver interface is completely different.

HunterZ wrote:

Unfortunately, not even QfG2 (a later SCI0 game) includes a Soundblaster+MT-32 driver I don't think.

Again, contrary to popular thought, QfG2 is SCI1, no buts, no ifs. People think it's SCI0 because it's EGA only and because it has a parser interface, but that doesn't matter. See my SCI article on Wikipedia for further details. Otherwise, I have written MTBLAST.DRVs for both SQ3 and QfG2. The gain is small though, as most sampled sounds are just recorded from the MT-32.

SirGraham wrote:

For some reason, I have a driver called BLASTER2.DRV in my 1.0P copy, and it works fine in 1.0P and in 1.018. I haven't seen this driver anywhere else, did you encounter it?

That one could be downloaded from Sierra's BBS. It wasn't shipped with the game.

SirGraham wrote:

Apparently, neither emulator has a proper support for this device (in DOSBox it even causes the game to freeze right after Roger jumps from his pod).

Correct.

SirGraham wrote:

Are you sure that's the palette produced by using CGA320C.DRV in this version of KQ4SCI?

On a VGA, yes. On a CGA, since the palette selection bit in port 0x3d9 is inactive if the monochrome bit is set in port 0x3d8 (which it is in mode 5), you get a low-intensity cyan/red/gray with a blue background. See picture.

SirGraham wrote:

so you're saying there's no way the pink/cyan/white/black palette would be displayed on a CGA?

No way with AGI.

SirGraham wrote:

so they didn't actually "add" SB support, they just added the driver.

That's what SB support usually means.

SirGraham wrote:

I remember there was also version 1.052, what's the deal with that?

German version.

If we both are using the same KQ4 version, shouldn't we get the same color palette? (I took my screenshot using DOSBox in cga mode.) Is it likely that the same version of KQ4 would have shipped with two different CGA 4-Color drivers? Also, all the other SCI games I tried use the intense cyan/red/white palette while your version is using the non-intense cyan/red/white palette.

If we both are using the same KQ4 version, shouldn't we get the same color palette? (I took my screenshot using DOSBox in cga mode.)

Not if you're using DosBox, while I used MESS to take that screenshot. The driver is the same; DosBox honors the palette select bit of port 0x3d9 even when the monochrome bit of port 0x3d8 is set; MESS doesn't, neither does the real CGA as far as I have observed.

Also, all the other SCI games I tried use the intense cyan/red/white palette while your version is using the non-intense cyan/red/white palette.

As I said before: all other SCI games, including newer KQ4 releases, use a different CGA320C.DRV.

About SQ3: I've heard it suggested that perhaps the digitized sounds were made for the Amiga version.

or maybe an Adlib/Soundblaster driver that only used the OPL chip).

Did it come on 5.25" or on 3.5" floppy disks? On my single 1.018 SQ3, the SNDBLAST.DRV was only on the 3.5" floppy disk. It's also possible that you had your Sound Blaster set to IRQ 5; SQ3's SNDBLAST.DRV only works with IRQ 7.

Probably 5.25" now that you mention it, but I can't be sure because it was around the time that I finally got a 386DX33 with a 3.5" floppy drive. Not sure about the IRQ issue - it's possible but I'd be surprised.

Unfortunately, not even QfG2 (a later SCI0 game) includes a Soundblaster+MT-32 driver I don't think.

Again, contrary to popular thought, QfG2 is SCI1, no buts, no ifs. People think it's SCI0 because it's EGA only and because it has a parser interface, but that doesn't matter. See my SCI article on Wikipedia for further details. Otherwise, I have written MTBLAST.DRVs for both SQ3 and QfG2. The gain is small though, as most sampled sounds are just recorded from the MT-32.

Wow, I had no idea - like you said, I assumed due to the EGA graphics and parser interface that it was one of the late SCI0 games. I wonder if QfG2 started as SCI0 but was ported to SCI1 to take advantage of some of its features?

Also, where can I find your custom *BLAST.DRVs?

QfG2 is often refered to as SCI01, since it is halfway between SCI0 and SCI1. It has the graphics and parser system of the former, but is internally more like the latter.

The sample of Roger is indeed for the Amiga.

QfG2 is often refered to as SCI01, since it is halfway between SCI0 and SCI1. It has the graphics and parser system of the former, but is internally more like the latter.

It's not "halfway between SCI0 and SCI1", it's a run-of-the-mill SCI1 game, end of story. Read my Wikipedia article.

The sample of Roger is indeed for the Amiga.

Oh my. Why on earth does this nonsense keep popping up even though I've debunked it just a few messages before? I wonder why I'm even posting here.
One more time: the samples in SQ3 are not for the Amiga or any other platform. The very first version of the game, PC version 1.0P from March 1989, had this sample, and at that time the Tandy with DAC was the only device capable of playing it back.
The Amiga versions of SCI0 games were all done in 1990 and later. Now, *please* stop spreading this nonsense that these samples were included with PC versions for the sake of non-PC versions.

It's not "halfway between SCI0 and SCI1", it's a run-of-the-mill SCI1 game, end of story. Read my Wikipedia article.

Why do you think it's called SCI01? ("called", not "named") Because it is halfway between SCI0 and SCI1 in that it is looks like an SCI0 game, but is internally SCI1, which is what I stated. I never said it was an official designation or that the "halfway" thing had anything to do with Sierra's internal development of the interpreter. (Probably had more to do with switching interpreters during the development of those games, not wanting to redo the 16 colour pictures they'd already done in 256 colours).

Oh my. Why on earth does this nonsense keep popping up even though I've debunked it just a few messages before? I wonder why I'm even posting here.

So do I. You seem to get worked up an awful lot against many friendly people here about trivial matters. Even if you are always right, there's no need to insult other people or be arrogant about it. Relax, buddy! It's not like this is a matter of life and death.

Kippesoep wrote:

Why do you think it's called SCI01?

By whom? By people who know what they're talking about? If you want to call QfG2 "SCI01", you should call the EGA version of KQ5 "SCI01" as well, because the interpreter (SCI means "Sierra's Creative Interpreter", so you see, it just applies to the interpreter, not the "look and feel") is the same.
By the way, what do you call "Jones in the Fast Lane"?

And it's not that I "want to be right" (who cares?), it's that I take great care to post factually accurate information, then some dude comes around and posts inaccurate hearsay, thereby showing that he didn't bother to read the thread properly.
It devalues previous posters' efforts, cheapens the discussion and makes the matter being discussed unnecessarily confusing. And as far as "rudeness" is concerned, it is considered rude not to read a thread before replying.

Kippesoep wrote:

there's no need to insult other people or be arrogant about it

Where did I insult you? I just told you to stop spreading nonsense. Stop being such a crybaby.

HunterZ wrote:

Also, where can I find your custom *BLAST.DRVs?

Until now, nowhere. These are for SQ3 and QfG2. I have written them for my own use, so they may not work for you (although they work for me in DosBox). Only those samples which are not recorded from the MT-32 are played on the Sound Blaster, the others are not. Since the driver has no way of knowing which samples were recorded from the MT-32, I have included those sounds and put a special flag for this in an otherwise unused field, which the driver checks. 😀

NewRisingSun wrote:

By whom? By people who know what they're talking about?

That doesn't matter. The term is even mentioned in "your" wikipedia entry. It is a fact that QfG is often called an SCI01 game. That it has little bearing on the internals of the interpreter is not important. (It does have some relevance, since there are minor differences between "SCI01" and SCI1 [I seem to recall compression type 4 not being present in "SCI01", of course there is the vector/bitmap distinction etc.])

Where did I insult you? I just told you to stop spreading nonsense. Stop being such a crybaby.

I didn't say I felt insulted. It was just a general observation from reading this thread and others that you have posted in. The text I just quoted to me shows that you lack discretion and maturity in your posts, but that's simply my opinion. You obviously know very little of the e-text effect.

Kippesoep wrote:

The term is even mentioned in "your" wikipedia entry. It is a fact that QfG is often called an SCI01 game.

I didn't deny that; I denied that it's "halfway between SCI0 and SCI1". And I still want to know what kind of a SCI?? game KQ5 EGA is according to your terminology.

Kippesoep wrote:

That it has little bearing on the internals of the interpreter is not important.

Ok, it's not important, except to the discussion at hand (which sound driver type can be used)... what did I say about reading a topic before replying?

Kippesoep wrote:

I seem to recall compression type 4 not being present in "SCI01", of course there is the vector/bitmap distinction etc.

Since what you call "SCI01" is just the 16-color part of SCI1 (as explained), there obviously can't be a distinction between SCI01 (supposedly QfG2) and EGA SCI1 (KQ5, SQ4,...). Compression type 4 is compression type 2 with the data slightly rearranged to yield better compression ratios; it only affects PIC resources. Since this gain exists only with 256-color data, it is not used with 16-color games. That's not a function of "SCI01" vs. "SCI1", but simply of the fact that Sierra used that compression type which yields the best ratio.

Kippesoep wrote:

The text I just quoted to me shows that you lack discretion and maturity in your posts, but that's simply my opinion. You obviously know very little of the e-text effect.

Show discretion and maturity by reading a topic completely before replying, and we won't have a problem. And no, I don't know what the "e-text effect" is, and neither does Google.

SirGraham wrote:

Well, that's the only place I saw the blue and AGI drivers. For some reason they work on EGA versions of SCI1 games

Yes, the graphics driver interface has changed very little over the years.

SirGraham wrote:

As for the other changes, I don't know what they are.

Some spelling corrections, the ADL driver was improved (compare how the first note sounds in 1.018 and 1.0P), and the game waits for the title screen music to finish before starting the "pod fly-by" sequence. These are the ones I know of.

SirGraham wrote:

By the way, when I run v1.018, it says 1989 in the title screen, and there's no date in the "about" window.

I'm basing the 1990 observation on the date/time stamp in the files' directory entry. I see that most abandonware sites feature incorrect date/time stamps. I'm glad that Sierra stopped updating the Copyright notice for updated versions; if you got Version 2.2 of KQ2, you wouldn't know that it was actually first released in 1985, not 1987.

Great Hierophant wrote:

Many important graphics cards are hard to find.

Here in Europe it's almost impossible to find a Tandy 1000 or PCjr; I don't think those two were even sold here.

NewRisingSun wrote:

I didn't deny that; I denied that it's "halfway between SCI0 and SCI1". And I still want to know what kind of a SCI?? game KQ5 EGA is according to your terminology.

In my terminology? SCI1. Personally, I call games with 16 colour vector graphics running in an SCI1 interpreter SCI01 (which seems to match the terminology of the FreeSCI project, which is where I got most of my knowledge of SCI).

Ok, it's not important, except to the discussion at hand (which sound driver type can be used)... what did I say about reading a topic before replying?

I have read it as it unfolded. That doesn't make it impossible to make simple mistakes, though. Especially when it already spans 10 pages.

Since what you call "SCI01" is just the 16-color part of SCI1 (as explained), there obviously can't be a distinction between SCI01 and SCI1. Compression type 4 is compression type 2 with the data slightly rearranged to yield better compression ratios; it only affects PIC resources. Since this gain exists only with 256-color data, it is not used with 16-color games. That's not a function of "SCI01" vs. "SCI1", but simply of the fact that Sierra used that compression type which yields the best ratio.

Would QfG2's interpreter support a type 4 file or bitmap pic-resources? Does KQ5E's interpreter support vector graphics? Does any SCI interpreter support VGA vector graphics? I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if the answer to at least one of those were "no". That confuses the issue a little.

Show discretion and maturity by reading a topic completely before replying, and we won't have a problem.

You keep assuming I haven't. And are you quite sure you've never posted something erroneously? Don't make such a big problem of it. Why not just a simple, polite "That is incorrect, as I explained several posts up."? It conveys the meaning and is much friendlier.

And no, I don't know what the "e-text effect" is.

The e-text effect is the phenomenon that, because of the nature of electronic communication (i.e. the lack of seeing a person's expression, hearing their inflections as well as the speed, resulting in less time taken by the writer to think about the tone of what they're saying), any negative emotion displayed in electronic communication is often amplified (or at least perceived to be).

Looks like there's a mistake in the wikipedia article; SCI1.1 games used EGA's 640x200 mode, not 640x350 (or the one's I've played at least). Probably this is rather convenient; the width is doubled so use two EGA pixels to represent a single MCGA pixel.

It is slightly unclear from the wikipedia article which version of SCI Jones in the Fast Lane uses. If the 16-Color Disk Version uses SCI0, does the 256-Color Disk Version use SCI1 or a SCI hybrid?

I would think that SCI1 interpreter does support the use of vector graphics drawing tecniques. Quest for Glory II uses native 16 color picutres. I think it is quite likely that the graphic artists used the same tools and methods they used for all the older 16-Color SCI games. The 16-Color Versions of King's Quest V and other games show graphics indisputably converted from the original 256 Color graphics, so I would say that they don't use vector graphics for drawing.

Actually, I can obtain a PCjr., an IBM MDA or CGA card, and even an IBM EGA card (of uncertain upgrade quality), but the prices are high. The harder to find models are the Tandy 1000s and true Hercules Graphic Cards. PS/2s using the MCA bus are easier to find and include true VGA on the motherboard, but aren't very useful for gaming. PS/2s using the ISA bus are harder to find and use slow processors.

NewRisingSun wrote:

The Amiga versions of SCI0 games were all done in 1990 and later. Now, *please* stop spreading this nonsense that these samples were included with PC versions for the sake of non-PC versions.

MobyGames lists 1989, not 1990, as the release year for the Amiga and Atari ST versions (not that I'm claiming it's correct). I even saw one site (gamestats.com) that listed 12/31/1988 as a release date for the Macintosh version, although I find that unlikely.

Also, I have read the thread as it has progressed as well, and I recall that your statement about the samples being intended for the Tandy is speculation as well. Has anyone actually tried it?

It's not that important anyways.

Also, thanks for posting those drivers.

Kippesoep wrote:

Would QfG2's interpreter support a type 4 file or bitmap pic-resources? Does KQ5E's interpreter support vector graphics?

Sure. You can use the QfG2 interpreter with the EGA version of KQ5, and vice-versa (minus the parser).

Kippesoep wrote:

Does any SCI interpreter support VGA vector graphics? I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if the answer to at least one of those were "no".

All SCI interpreters have to support vectors, because the priority and control maps are stored as vectors, even though the image data may be stored as pixels.

Servo wrote:

SCI1.1 games used EGA's 640x200 mode, not 640x350 (or the one's I've played at least).

Corrected it.

Great Hierophant wrote:

It is slightly unclear from the wikipedia article which version of SCI Jones in the Fast Lane uses.

Jones is a bit of a problem because the interpreter's version string reads "x.yyy.zzz". This usually suggests that the executable is not part of the main development tree, but specifically compiled for that game.

HunterZ wrote:

MobyGames lists 1989, not 1990, as the release year for the Amiga and Atari ST versions (not that I'm claiming it's correct).

I am sure MobyGames is unreliable as far as the Amiga release years are concerned. It lists KQ4's Amiga version as released in 1988, when the Amiga version's own copyright string reads 1990. I think they wouldn't have put "(C) 1990 Sierra On-Line, Inc." in the game's logo screen if they really released in 1988...

HunterZ wrote:

I recall that your statement about the samples being intended for the Tandy is speculation as well. Has anyone actually tried it?

Well, let's look at two facts: the samples are included in version 1.0P's sound resources, and version 1.0P comes with a "Tandy with DAC" driver. No other driver that is shipped with this version is able to play the samples. Now for the speculation: absent the ability to mind read, the most likely explanation is that the samples are therefore for said "Tandy with DAC" driver, certainly more likely than the explanation that the PC version comes with data unusable at the time. For Amiga/ST versions, Sierra would always compile an entirely new set of RESOURCE.* files, in some cases with quite interesting sound enhancements (KQ4).
But yes, I have tried it --- not because I have a real Tandy SL/TL, but because I had written a Tandy DAC emulator, originally written for the original SimCity game, which works nice with SQ3's TANDY.DRV as well (to my surprise, I have to admit) --- just the samples, of course, not the PSG music.

HunterZ wrote:

Also, thanks for posting those drivers.

I take it that they worked for you?