Is munt windows 98 compatibel?

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Is munt windows 98 compatibel?

Postby Nic-93 » 2014-10-28 @ 15:51

Im wondering if it works on such a old system because im gonna fill up a laptop i might be getting with old windows games.
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Re: Is munt windows 98 compatibel?

Postby Dominus » 2014-10-28 @ 16:47

The question is whether the laptop is fast enough...
And you can just try it in windows 98 ;)
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Re: Is munt windows 98 compatibel?

Postby Nic-93 » 2014-10-28 @ 22:56

Dominus wrote:The question is whether the laptop is fast enough...
And you can just try it in windows 98 ;)

well, its an acer laptop.
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Re: Is munt windows 98 compatibel?

Postby Dominus » 2014-10-29 @ 00:14

Well, yes, acer laptops are known for being laptops.
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Re: Is munt windows 98 compatibel?

Postby collector » 2014-10-29 @ 01:15

Dominus wrote:Well, yes, acer laptops are known for being laptops.

LOL, thanks, I needed that.
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Re: Is munt windows 98 compatibel?

Postby Nic-93 » 2014-10-29 @ 12:47

Dominus wrote:Well, yes, acer laptops are known for being laptops.


well, yeah, but i saw it stil had its processor sticker, and it said pentium 2.
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Re: Is munt windows 98 compatibel?

Postby sergm » 2014-10-31 @ 19:39

Short answer: no.
And this is indicated at the project's page on Source Forge.

Even if we ignore the fact Windows 9x is long unsupported by many, we don't see the point. Generally, a system which isn't capable to run Window XP is slow. Pentium 2 surely is. You can relax. Bad luck once again.

Besides, Qt project doesn't support Windows 9x, so no UI for this system. MIDI driver can be updated but see the reason above. I only have it compiled a few years ago as a console application that listens on a input MIDI port for one guy who required it also, but he didn't respond whether his PC is capable enough to run the synth. Although, the speed requirements aren't so strong now, there is certainly a lot of work for CPU.

So, if the PC is below 800 MHz (as I estimate), there is no chance for it to run munt. There are two notable options for such configurations:
1. attach a real thing and free the CPU :)
2. attach more powerful PC with munt via USB-MIDI / RTP over LAN / whatever else way of delivering MIDI messages. I vaguely remember somebody on VOGONS has succeed on this way.
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Re: Is munt windows 98 compatibel?

Postby sergm » 2014-11-03 @ 11:12

Btw, Nic-93, have you tried DOSBox build by truth5678?
http://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&p=386737#p386737
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Re: Is munt windows 98 compatibel?

Postby Blurredman » 2014-11-03 @ 11:22

sergm wrote: Generally, a system which isn't capable to run Window XP is slow. Pentium 2 surely is. You can relax. Bad luck once again.



Windows XP works fairly well on a pentium 2! Providing you have a good amount of RAM, you can still browse the internet. I still use my Dell D266XT for occasional web surfing. I know it takes an age, but when you're watching the TV at the same time, it seems like less of a wait. :blush:
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Re: Is munt windows 98 compatibel?

Postby sergm » 2014-11-03 @ 11:41

Well, it's a general rule of thumb. No doubt there are systems with fast CPUs and not enough RAM to run WinXP. ;)
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Re: Is munt windows 98 compatibel?

Postby sergm » 2014-11-03 @ 11:44

Sadly, even smf2wav fails to open files in a Win98 box if compiled with gcc 4.6.2 :( Sure, careful recompilation with possibly fixing incompatibilities will result in a munt working under Win98 but is it worth anyway?
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Re: Is munt windows 98 compatibel?

Postby sergm » 2014-11-03 @ 11:51

Besides, it may be a better option to setup Linux on such a box... At least Linux box can be configured to require even less RAM while still be maintained and thus fully compatible with munt...
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Re: Is munt windows 98 compatibel?

Postby sergm » 2014-11-05 @ 20:06

Is anybody still interested? I can upload that version of mt32emu console app for testing regarding performance in real-time.

I think it may appear advantageous on slower CPUs to run a game in Win9x instead. At least it can save from DOSBox's overhead. Though, not sure if munt doesn't eat all the CPU time itself. :/
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Re: Is MUNT Windows 98 compatible?

Postby 95DosBox » 2017-9-09 @ 16:55

sergm wrote:Is anybody still interested? I can upload that version of mt32emu console app for testing regarding performance in real-time.

I think it may appear advantageous on slower CPUs to run a game in Win9x instead. At least it can save from DOSBox's overhead. Though, not sure if munt doesn't eat all the CPU time itself. :/


Sergm, Good job on the recent Munt update.

A Windows 98 version is now viable for testing of Munt. DOSBOX works with 98 and now all that is needed is to get Munt working in 98 to complete the MIDI portion of retro gaming. Currently the MS GS Synth is horrible so Munt will actually improve legacy DOS gaming experience as a whole. Even as a stand alone playing MIDI files with Munt is a bonus.

I've been doing a lot of testing of your Munt for XP. The last version 1.3 I had used pales to the improvement of 2.2 and has had a dramatic difference in quality compared to my real MT-32 being almost close enough. At the time I had converted to XP but now I have gotten 98 working on even the newest chipsets so the speed is incredible on 98 vs XP.

Can Munt v2.2 be directly ported to Windows 98 as you had considered 3 years ago?

I'm interested and I want to help beta test the Windows 98 version of Munt to perfection so it mimics the XP version. You were correct the load is much less on 98 than XP. This was evident even during the P3/P4 era. This is the best future proof method for DOS legacy gaming with no need for real legacy hardware (ISA SB / MT-32).

Let me know if you can get this Windows 98 Munt port up for testing. :wink:
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Re: Is munt windows 98 compatibel?

Postby sergm » 2017-9-09 @ 18:50

Speaking of Windows 98 port of munt, I don't mean all these tools we have to be available. Unfortunately, life goes forth, and Windows 98 is currently unsupported by almost anything. Even mt32emu-smf2wav does not work there due to lack of Unicode support that is required by the version of glib we use. The same situation is with the Qt library. Official builds of Qt 4 that can be used on Windows 98 lack of features we rely on. Indeed, these can be fixed, I hope. Just not sure how long it takes to debug.

But the major problem with Windows 98 is MIDI driver porting. Because MIDI driver shall be 16-bit, it is a problem to find a free tool to compile the code (not mentioning a required rewrite).

So, to mimic munt version for XP, it needs enough effort. For now, I can only offer a console synth that works with an external MIDI loopback driver (tested with MIDI Yoke for Windows 98). This shouldn't take much time to update to the current version of the library, hopefully.
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Re: Is munt windows 98 compatibel?

Postby Falcosoft » 2017-9-09 @ 20:30

The x86 version of Munt VSTi supports Win9x. Together with FSMP you can use Munt even with DosBox under Win9x.
Munt VSTi is integrated into FSMP but also can be downloaded separately:
http://falcosoft.hu/softwares.html#midiplayer
http://falcosoft.hu/softwares.html#munt_vsti

Phil has made a good video about how to use FSMP (and MuntVsti):
Ultimate MIDI Emulator for DOS Games Roland MT-32 CM-32L SC-55 Yamaha SF2 SoundFont
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Making Munt Windows 98 compatible

Postby 95DosBox » 2017-9-10 @ 03:36

sergm wrote:Speaking of Windows 98 port of munt, I don't mean all these tools we have to be available. Unfortunately, life goes forth, and Windows 98 is currently unsupported by almost anything. Even mt32emu-smf2wav does not work there due to lack of Unicode support that is required by the version of glib we use. The same situation is with the Qt library. Official builds of Qt 4 that can be used on Windows 98 lack of features we rely on. Indeed, these can be fixed, I hope. Just not sure how long it takes to debug.

But the major problem with Windows 98 is MIDI driver porting. Because MIDI driver shall be 16-bit, it is a problem to find a free tool to compile the code (not mentioning a required rewrite).

So, to mimic munt version for XP, it needs enough effort. For now, I can only offer a console synth that works with an external MIDI loopback driver (tested with MIDI Yoke for Windows 98). This shouldn't take much time to update to the current version of the library, hopefully.


This is the holy grail of retro DOS gaming since it is not possible to do under DOS without the actual hardware. I brought this up because Windows 98 can run almost any Intel chipset which includes Sky/KabyLake 2017. I was able to get 98 installed on a USB flash drive. All you need is a USB audio device and now you got audio to take care of the DOSBOX SB and your MUNT MT-32 emulation sound output. It's all PnP and much easier than XP getting it all installed and activated. It isn't possible to boot XP directly off USB (though maybe someone probably has with some heavy modification but you still have to deal with activation) which is a big limitation whereas 98 can be installed with just the CD-key.

DOSBOX can run on 98 off the USB and Munt for Windows 98 is the last remaining component. After this is included it will be possible to boot 98 off a USB and run any DOS game with full Sound Blaster and MT-32 emulation.

Serg, what programs do you need to get this done? Maybe I can help locate them. You mentioned MIDI driver porting for 16-bit. So the XP one is 32-bit isn't 98 able to run 32-bit code or is there some inherent 16-bit limit for MIDI drivers on 98?

Would anything from KernelEx resolve some of these compatibility issues? Although I'd rather it be not dependent on anything but a clean 98 and DOSBOX works without any problems.

What kind of help do you need? I'd like to try and get 98 Munt completed as it really will open the door for portable DOS gaming on the go and would eliminate ISA slot MB dependency and a real MT-32 but just a USB flash drive with Windows 98 and a cheap USB sound device you could relive your nostalgia almost anywhere.
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Re: Is munt windows 98 compatibel?

Postby sergm » 2017-9-10 @ 09:19

Wait a minute. I don't get the point if this is about running games in DOSBox under Windows 98. All you need is to add mt32emu library right into DOSBox. I'm sure there are DOSBox builds Win9x compatible around already.

Besides, I don't think it is enough to have just an Intel CPU to run Windows 9x on a modern PC. USB audio is likely OK, but which video drivers do you use? When I tried windows 98 on my notebook I got nothing more than 800x600x16 video mode, quite disappointing. Perhaps, it would be better if VESA modes were supported but I doubt this is always the case. Sorry, but I only see the point to run Windows 98 on supported hardware where you don't even need to use DOSBox. And unlucky, such hardware does not seem to be powerful enough for mt32emu engine to work in real time. Hence, I still see no need to bother with compatibility.

And indeed, there are tons of Windows PE builds around (for example, I used to use REATOGO in old times) that allows you to run XP from a USB drive (and of course from a CD). Actually, I think running Windows 7 PE is even easier. And I don't see the point to run exactly Windows at all. You can easily set up a Linux box, and DOSBox will run just fine there. Either with official munt packages or again compiled into DOSBox. The latter would look more convenient for me personally if I wanted to play games. I think a Linux box provides wast majority of advantages compared to an XP PE or Windows 7 PE builds (not mentioning Win9x which likely lacks drivers for newer hardware).

So, no, I don't get the point. For me, Windows 98 changes nothing in the sense of portable gaming.
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Re: Is munt windows 98 compatibel?

Postby Falcosoft » 2017-9-10 @ 12:30

Sorry, but I only see the point to run Windows 98 on supported hardware where you don't even need to use DOSBox. And unlucky, such hardware does not seem to be powerful enough for mt32emu engine to work in real time.

While I completely agree with your Win9x+DosBox argument the above statement is not necessarily true.
Higher-end Athlon Xp chips (in my case an Athlon XP 2200 with KT7a that fully supports Win9x ) can run the integer Munt engine with the default 32 voice polyphony completely fine (below 30% CPU usage). Although using the floating point engine is another story...
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Re: Is munt windows 98 compatibel?

Postby sergm » 2017-9-10 @ 13:48

Well, I mostly mean systems that can _only_ run Windows 98 and have limited resources to go with Windows 2k and above. But even these systems can run Linux with one of those simple desktop managers. Anyway, that would be slow... ;)
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