Ultima 7 intro sfx - Munt vs real MT32

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Ultima 7 intro sfx - Munt vs real MT32

Postby Dominus » 2016-1-31 @ 10:22

For Exult we are messing around with the Ultima 7 intro and while recording the output of Munt and comparing it to what I get with Dosbox and a real MT32 I find Munt a bit muffled, not as "strong" as with a real device.
Problem is that my Mac and my mt32 are not connected to the same boxes, so it might be that.
AND I currently do not have any input device to record what the MT32 outputs (new iMac, no line-in and the only other thing I have only supports a microphone :( )

So to test, in the Ultima 7 installer choose Roland Mt32, then start a game and in the game disable music and speech, only keep the sound effects enabled (in game, press i for inventory and then click on the floppy disk symbol).
My recording of Munt is at https://www.dropbox.com/s/i4jcsy1fghbpb ... o.zip?dl=1 - I chose the Audio File Writer in the QT GUI, and the MT32 "blueridge" ROM set.
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Re: Ultima 7 intro sfx - Munt vs real MT32

Postby realnc » 2016-1-31 @ 14:52

I compared Munt's output to Simon Quinn's original MT-32 recording, and they sound the same.

The original MT-32 recordings are here:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/exult/ ... xult-data/

(In "exult_audio.zip".)

And here's my recording with Munt (built from current Git master sources):

http://expirebox.com/download/38b78270a ... 1082e.html

I cannot hear a difference to Simon's "03bg.ogg" :-/
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Re: Ultima 7 intro sfx - Munt vs real MT32

Postby Dominus » 2016-1-31 @ 15:30

I'd rather have a comparison with the intro sound effects (which Simon Quinn did not record), especially as I'm not sure whether it's my sound setup or Dosbox or Munt that does something different.

But thanks for looking into it as well ;)

BTW, I'm not talking about the menu music but the intro sound effects. 03bg.ogg is not the intro :)
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Re: Ultima 7 intro sfx - Munt vs real MT32

Postby sergm » 2016-1-31 @ 19:05

Keep in mind, that munt output is still digital (even though it is improved). Each real unit's output is typically analogue. Besides, each ADC also works in its own way when it captures the output from a real unit. Some allow more aliasing and others less.

To confront the "muffled output" problem, munt is now able to add some distortions that a perfect analogue path after the DAC would produce. But parameter deviations of real electronic parts are not emulated.

A thing to be also noted, many resamplers are tuned to cut the highest audio frequencies by default to prevent aliasing completely. So, if the munt output frequency is not the one the audio card works with, it may also suffer.

IMO, the easiest way to make the muffled output sound stronger is just pass it through an equalizer after the capturing is done. Aliasing may also be added to taste in most of DSP toolsets :)
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Re: Ultima 7 intro sfx - Munt vs real MT32

Postby Dominus » 2016-1-31 @ 19:29

hmm that's a bit disheartening :)
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Re: Ultima 7 intro sfx - Munt vs real MT32

Postby sergm » 2016-1-31 @ 19:39

Btw, why blueridge? It was dedicated to exactly reduce noise the standard MT-32 produced. I'm afraid you compare with a normal old MT-32, right? I guess it would be fair to use 1.07 ROM instead.
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Re: Ultima 7 intro sfx - Munt vs real MT32

Postby Dominus » 2016-1-31 @ 19:52

Good I mentioned it then ;)
It's just the one I have here from the days such things magically appeared and never got questioned. Let alone know anything about the revision... I just read blueridge in the ROM selector and thought I'd mentioned it ;)

(Btw the disheartening was more a reference to my living conditions with two little kids which doesn't allow me to play back stuff real loud to tell the difference - imagining to edit the captured waves was disheartening ;))
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Re: Ultima 7 intro sfx - Munt vs real MT32

Postby sergm » 2016-1-31 @ 20:01

I use a headset when I need it to be LOUD :)
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Re: Ultima 7 intro sfx - Munt vs real MT32

Postby NewRisingSun » 2016-2-01 @ 18:08

realnc wrote: compared Munt's output to Simon Quinn's original MT-32 recording, and they sound the same.
Those recordings are only at 22 KHz and thus will not accurately reflect the original frequency response. (The Serpent Isle recordings are also too fast, lack reverb changes, and get most of the custom instruments wrong.)
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Re: Ultima 7 intro sfx - Munt vs real MT32

Postby Dominus » 2016-2-01 @ 20:03

Sergm, now that I was able to record the real MT32 sfx and listen to them on the same machine, I have to take almost everything back. They sound exactly the same (blueridge vs v1.07 was almost no difference, btw).
Except for the very last sfx. It's a shot sound and the "echo" is always skipping just a little bit when played back/recorded with DOSBOx+Munt (QT GUI) while it plays fine with DOSBox+real MT32. Exact same settings for the game and DOSBox (core, cycles)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sv0tzmjz5wkv7 ... T.wav?dl=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5t6qjeiug95vj ... 2.wav?dl=1
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Re: Ultima 7 intro sfx - Munt vs real MT32

Postby sergm » 2016-2-01 @ 20:11

Nice :)
Pls, add the MIDI.
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Re: Ultima 7 intro sfx - Munt vs real MT32

Postby Dominus » 2016-2-01 @ 20:16

hit record in the gui, right?
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Re: Ultima 7 intro sfx - Munt vs real MT32

Postby Dominus » 2016-2-01 @ 23:16

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qoynzapd7jl3h ... t.mid?dl=1 is the recording of just before the moongate sfx and the shot
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Re: Ultima 7 intro sfx - Munt vs real MT32

Postby sergm » 2016-2-02 @ 09:56

Hmm, something's not right with the MIDI. I can't hear the shot sound, perhaps some SysExes are missing...
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Re: Ultima 7 intro sfx - Munt vs real MT32

Postby Dominus » 2016-2-02 @ 10:03

yeah, playing it back in Munt-qt it sounds *different*.
Anything I can do now?
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Re: Ultima 7 intro sfx - Munt vs real MT32

Postby sergm » 2016-2-02 @ 10:15

I didn't find any timbres named somewhat close. It looks like I need the SysEx stream the game loads upon the startup. Best would be to grab anything since you start the game up to the interesting point (if this isn't too long).
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Re: Ultima 7 intro sfx - Munt vs real MT32

Postby realnc » 2016-2-02 @ 11:25

Simon Quinn has also ripped the original game MIDI files and did sysex dumps for U7:

http://www.oocities.org/ukcave/ultimamidi.html

Or is the intro MIDI missing from his rips?
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Re: Ultima 7 intro sfx - Munt vs real MT32

Postby Dominus » 2016-2-02 @ 11:54

Realnc, the topic is about the game's sfx NOT the music tracks.

Sergm, I'll do a full recording later. Wasn't sure how it is correctly done. Sorry
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Re: Ultima 7 intro sfx - Munt vs real MT32

Postby NewRisingSun » 2016-2-02 @ 16:42

Dominus wrote:Except for the very last sfx. It's a shot sound and the "echo" is always skipping just a little bit when played back/recorded with DOSBOx+Munt (QT GUI) while it plays fine with DOSBox+real MT32.
It sounds as if there is a reverb change at the end of the sound effect. While I find MUNT's emulation of reverb in general is quite nice, its behavior during reverb changes seems to be quite different from a real machine, usually for the better.
Last edited by NewRisingSun on 2016-2-05 @ 20:29, edited 1 time in total.
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