VOGONS


First post, by Sequencer

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Or at least, this is the first time I've built a P3 system since the actual P3 era. At the time, I didn't have to put so much thought into it, since I could just buy things that were for sale retail at the time and have a fair assurance of compatibility. I'm finding now that power supplies on P3-era machines have become some sort of a dark art.

Firstly, I've already discovered that just putting your modern power supply on a machine like that isn't just overkill so much as asking for problems. (I found this out by doing it.) I'm running an Asus P3B-F, and the BIOS is complaining during bootup of, oddly enough, of too _high_ a -5V rail voltage: -6.1V

This is perplexing to me, since I've read that one of the problems with modern power supplies on older systems is supposed to be that they don't supply a -5V rail at all, much less one that has too much juice on it. I think I need some guidance on purchasing a power supply for this machine. I have found that the only power supplies on eBay that come out and actually say on their specs label that there is a -5V output are a few StarTech models. I've read here on Vogons that Delta and Enermax are both highly thought of, but none of them seem to ever mention this output rail existing or give their load limit for it.

While the CPU/motherboard/video on a P3 will surely not consume much power by itself, please know that I will also have a SCSI card, three hard drives, an ethernet card, and a SoundBlaster AWE64, so there is some peripheral load to provide for also. Do you think a StarTech 380W will be appropriate? Is the lack of any mention of a -5V rail on other non-StarTech PSU's a real problem, or is it nothing to really worry about? If the lack of mention of -5V output isn't any issue, there do exist higher wattage PSU's (~400-450W or so) from Delta and Enermax that I could be getting instead of the StarTech, assuming I even need more than 380W (which I'm not sure about).

Reply 1 of 13, by Doornkaat

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Hi! The hardware monitor thing is easy: If there's no -5V rail present either the monitoring chip or the BIOS produce a false value. You don't need to worry about that reading when using a PSU that doesn't have a -5V rail.
Do you need -5V? Probably not. Only a handful of ISA cards require that voltage. ISA Cards & Devices Requiring -5V
Regarding Enermax and Delta PSUs the ones held in high regard for vintage computers are contemporaty PSUs. I don't think their current products are well suited for vintage hardware.
Lastly to figure out roughly what PSU you'll need we need to know what hardware you're planning on using.

Reply 2 of 13, by BitWrangler

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FortronSource/FSP and Sparkle/SPI are some of my favorites to look out for, 250W one of those will run a well loaded P3. 300s and 350s can be found.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 3 of 13, by AppleSauce

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Newton power supplies are pretty decent too , but be aware the caps usually aren't as good as Deltas.
The -5v thing shouldn't usually matter , but for some reason my motherboard would lock up in the voltage monitoring section of the bios because my psu was missing -5v even though it never used it so ymmv.

Reply 4 of 13, by BitWrangler

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Most boards I've had with voltage monitoring, you could arrow down to the -5V and set it to "Ignore" ... could ignore any in fact, if say your multimeter said 12V and your monitoring said 7 or 23.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 5 of 13, by Sequencer

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BitWrangler wrote on 2022-10-10, 14:24:

Most boards I've had with voltage monitoring, you could arrow down to the -5V and set it to "Ignore" ... could ignore any in fact, if say your multimeter said 12V and your monitoring said 7 or 23.

I've confirmed that my AWE64 card does not have any finger contact for ISA pin 5, so -5V doesn't matter diddly for my use case apparently. I'm going to just see if I can ignore it as you've described.

Now I'm going about getting some smaller hard IDE hard drives, because my 750GB and 400GB ones are apparently inconceivable to the BIOS. (re: 8GB limit -- how did we ever live with these limitations?) 😀

I've got a nice SCSI card with its own Adaptec BIOS and a 300GB SCSI drive though, so I'm thinking I can probably still cheat the limits a bit...

Reply 6 of 13, by AppleSauce

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BitWrangler wrote on 2022-10-10, 14:24:

Most boards I've had with voltage monitoring, you could arrow down to the -5V and set it to "Ignore" ... could ignore any in fact, if say your multimeter said 12V and your monitoring said 7 or 23.

I don't think my motherboard has that option.
Again its not a huge issue just a minor nitpick.

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Reply 7 of 13, by AppleSauce

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Sequencer wrote on 2022-10-10, 16:29:
I've confirmed that my AWE64 card does not have any finger contact for ISA pin 5, so -5V doesn't matter diddly for my use case a […]
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BitWrangler wrote on 2022-10-10, 14:24:

Most boards I've had with voltage monitoring, you could arrow down to the -5V and set it to "Ignore" ... could ignore any in fact, if say your multimeter said 12V and your monitoring said 7 or 23.

I've confirmed that my AWE64 card does not have any finger contact for ISA pin 5, so -5V doesn't matter diddly for my use case apparently. I'm going to just see if I can ignore it as you've described.

Now I'm going about getting some smaller hard IDE hard drives, because my 750GB and 400GB ones are apparently inconceivable to the BIOS. (re: 8GB limit -- how did we ever live with these limitations?) 😀

I've got a nice SCSI card with its own Adaptec BIOS and a 300GB SCSI drive though, so I'm thinking I can probably still cheat the limits a bit...

You pretty much won't encounter anything that really needs -5v unless you have one of the cards from this very small list , i.e. : a LAPC-I or certain pro audio spectrum cards.

ISA Cards & Devices Requiring -5V

So I wouldn't worry about it , again it was just a really weird end use case bug on my end.

Reply 8 of 13, by BitWrangler

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AppleSauce wrote on 2022-10-11, 15:24:
I don't think my motherboard has that option. Again its not a huge issue just a minor nitpick. […]
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BitWrangler wrote on 2022-10-10, 14:24:

Most boards I've had with voltage monitoring, you could arrow down to the -5V and set it to "Ignore" ... could ignore any in fact, if say your multimeter said 12V and your monitoring said 7 or 23.

I don't think my motherboard has that option.
Again its not a huge issue just a minor nitpick.

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Ah yeah, they'd be white if you could I guess. Shame. Though there's some key combo on the main screen for unhiding hidden options on some boards... forgot what it is and this is what google is letting me find at the moment .. https://linustechtips.com/topic/1190025-unloc … n-bios-options/

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 9 of 13, by mrzmaster

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AppleSauce wrote on 2022-10-11, 15:24:

I don't think my motherboard has that option.
Again its not a huge issue just a minor nitpick.

That's odd, on my Asus P2B-F, I can disable it so the warning doesn't show.

Also, I happily use a Corsair CX450M on both my P3 systems; I've found that any modern PSU that has a stand-alone 20 pin connector works fine. Some newer PSUs have a 24 pin (where the 4 PIN can't be unclipped from the 20 pin) connector, so I'd avoid those models.

Reply 10 of 13, by AppleSauce

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mrzmaster wrote on 2022-10-11, 17:25:
AppleSauce wrote on 2022-10-11, 15:24:

I don't think my motherboard has that option.
Again its not a huge issue just a minor nitpick.

That's odd, on my Asus P2B-F, I can disable it so the warning doesn't show.

Also, I happily use a Corsair CX450M on both my P3 systems; I've found that any modern PSU that has a stand-alone 20 pin connector works fine. Some newer PSUs have a 24 pin (where the 4 PIN can't be unclipped from the 20 pin) connector, so I'd avoid those models.

My motherboards an ABIT BF6 , maybe they cut some corners with features and stuff vs higher quality competitor boards from ASUS.
I ended up simply solving it by throwing a voltage blaster in the unpopulated ISA slot ,
figured I might as well since its shared and the two pci slots above it are used by sli voodoo 2s which block the isa slot anyway.

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Reply 12 of 13, by BitWrangler

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Ah yes,. ye olde potentially divisive potential divider, where the world is potentially divided into those who have used a potential divider and those who haven't.

I guess you could provide up to ~200mA like that with 1W resistors, but the component pack ones that arduino etc hobbyists will have hanging around are 1/8W so most you'll be able to pull is ~25mA (Without them turning into nifty smoking orange power indicators) , which is fine just to shut the board sensors up, okay if anything else wants a reference voltage, but won't really power anything that needs -5 power.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 13 of 13, by Sequencer

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Sequencer wrote on 2022-10-10, 16:29:

Now I'm going about getting some smaller hard IDE hard drives, because my 750GB and 400GB ones are apparently inconceivable to the BIOS. (re: 8GB limit -- how did we ever live with these limitations?) 😀

I've got a nice SCSI card with its own Adaptec BIOS and a 300GB SCSI drive though, so I'm thinking I can probably still cheat the limits a bit...

Looks like the P3B-F can't boot from an Adaptec SCSI card, even if the card's SCSI BIOS is enabled and DOS does see drive letters. You can select SCSI boot device in the motherboard BIOS, but it still won't boot. Darn. (I think I recall I was using Tyan boards during the late 90's, so that might be why I never ran into that before.)

Fortunately, I have a couple of 8GB IDE drives coming. I should be able to use one as a boot drive, and still have my SCSI drives for additional space....