VOGONS


First post, by andre_6

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Hello everyone,

Decided to make a new thread as this question came about solving a different one here.

So my card's fan too noisy and I'd like to at least be able to oil it up to alleviate this somewhat. But removing both stickers didn't show the bearing at all. How do I access it? Can I remove both halves without destroying it? Or is the tiny spot on the picture (near the centre circle beside the chips) showing my way in?

Thank you for your help and replies as always

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Reply 1 of 20, by kaputnik

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The center circle could be a cap for the bearing, but just as well a groove left after trimming down flash from the injection molding or something. Hard to tell from your pics. The bearing is right behind it anyways. Check if you can remove it with a needle 😀

Reply 2 of 20, by andre_6

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kaputnik wrote on 2023-08-04, 00:05:

The center circle could be a cap for the bearing, but just as well a groove left after trimming down flash from the injection molding or something. Hard to tell from your pics. The bearing is right behind it anyways. Check if you can remove it with a needle 😀

Thank you, tried the needle but didn't work, it really looks like it's just part of the injection molding. So these fans are not supposed to be opened? What if I punctured a hole in the center of that small circle, one oil drop and put the sticker back? The bearing is there, surely

Reply 3 of 20, by Sphere478

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Okay, so here is the scoop. I worked on fans/motors like this professionally for decades.

Basically many of those fans use a dry slip bearing. But not all. Ideally you would try to clean them and insert something like graphite in them, but good luck with that.

Long story short, they aren’t supposed to need oil, and in fact, adding oil can actually sometimes lead to a failure soon after.

With the dry slip bearing type if the fan siezes up what you need is wd-40. Why? Because it isn’t a good lubricant only marginal at best, it evaporates eventually, and it is a a decent solvent. Also, and this is key, it is not very electrically conductive, though the contaminates it dislodges can be. But that is unlikely to cause a issue on a 12v fan.

The key here is the combination of properties helps free the bearing and clean it. And eventually it returns to its natural state

If the fan uses a ball/roller bearing, you can end up seizing that up with oils as they collect dust and make gum. Just like the previous problem if they aren’t sealed. See, fans are exposed to lots of dust and no new source of oil or cleaning usually.

But,
Many fan failures are worn out plastic bearing cups or worn out bearings themselves.

Again, don’t use oil on fans, but if you do, use wd-40

Basically if it is stuck, you can probably fix it, but if it is wobbly, or squeaky, you are only buying time. Best to replace.

Last edited by Sphere478 on 2023-08-04, 01:00. Edited 3 times in total.

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Reply 4 of 20, by andre_6

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Sphere478 wrote on 2023-08-04, 00:49:
Okay, so here is the scoop. I worked on fans/motors like this professionally for decades. […]
Show full quote

Okay, so here is the scoop. I worked on fans/motors like this professionally for decades.

Basically many of those fans use a dry slip bearing. But not all. Ideally you would try to clean them and insert something like graphite in them, but good luck with that.

Long story short, they aren’t supposed to need oil, and in fact, adding oil can actually sometimes lead to a failure soon after.

With the dry slip bearing type if the fan siezes up what you need is wd-40. Why? Because it isn’t a good lubricant only marginal at best, it evaporates eventually, and it is a a decent solvent. Also, and this is key, it is not very electrically conductive, though the contaminates it dislodges can be. But that is unlikely to cause a issue on a 12v fan.

The key here is the combination of properties helps free the bearing and clean it.

If the fan uses a bearing, you can end up seizing that up with oils as they collect dust and make gum.

Many fan failures are worn out plastic bearing cups or worn out bearings themselves.

Again, don’t use oil on fans, but if you do, use wd-40

Basically if it is stuck, yoy can probably fix it, if it is wobbly, squeaky, you are only buying time. Best to replace.

Thank you so much for the explanation, but in this case if the bearing is sealed shut in plastic with no cap or even in plain sight under the sticker, how do I oil it up correctly with WD-40? The fan is not failing per se, it's just loud as it always was since I got it and I'd like to see what I can do about it

Reply 5 of 20, by Sphere478

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See edits, was still tweaking reply.

Anyway, flip fan upside down, spray under the fan hub and fill it up, go out side and swing it around to throw off the excess, and wipe up the rest. Best you can do without disassembling.

Again, probably best to actually replace it. Successful service of fans is usually when they are stuck. Not when they are noisy or wobbly.

Usually wobbly/noisy is from wear. You are only bandaging it.

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Reply 6 of 20, by andre_6

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Sphere478 wrote on 2023-08-04, 00:57:
See edits, was still tweaking reply. […]
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See edits, was still tweaking reply.

Anyway, flip fan upside down, spray under the fan hub and fill it up, go out side and swing it around to throw off the excess, and wipe up the rest. Best you can do without disassembling.

Again, probably best to actually replace it. Successful service of fans is usually when they are stuck. Not when they are noisy or wobbly.

Usually wobbly/noisy is from wear. You are only bandaging it.

That's exactly what I've been doing for years before reading up about using sewing machine oil directly on the bearings, that's hilarious! Haha

Thank you so much, I guess I'll just repeat the process then. I don't have a lot of spare hardware but I have another ATI GPU fan, might try it and see if it's worth switching them up. Loved learning some more, as usual on this forum, thanks!

Reply 7 of 20, by shevalier

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andre_6 wrote on 2023-08-03, 23:24:

Can I remove both halves without destroying it?

Stick your all fingers between the turbine (yep, it's not a fan) and the base and push them in until the turbine pops out.
Do not use tools, only fingers. Otherwise you will break impeller.
like this video
https://youtu.be/opB5Je1oqpA?t=59
Only at the turbine from Sapphire nothing falls out, but the impeller just pops out.

These turbos have an inverted circlip arrangement. Not lower, but above. It is with radial cuts, like a chamomile flower.
Advice, from the owner of the 2600PRO AGP.

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Reply 8 of 20, by Repo Man11

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shevalier wrote on 2023-08-04, 03:25:
Stick your all fingers between the turbine (yep, it's not a fan) and the base and push them in until the turbine pops out. Do no […]
Show full quote
andre_6 wrote on 2023-08-03, 23:24:

Can I remove both halves without destroying it?

Stick your all fingers between the turbine (yep, it's not a fan) and the base and push them in until the turbine pops out.
Do not use tools, only fingers. Otherwise you will break impeller.
like this video
https://youtu.be/opB5Je1oqpA?t=59
Only at the turbine from Sapphire nothing falls out, but the impeller just pops out.

These turbos have an inverted circlip arrangement. Not lower, but above. It is with radial cuts, like a chamomile flower.
Advice, from the owner of the 2600PRO AGP.

Informative video, I didn't know those types of fans could be disassembled.

"I'd rather be rich than stupid" - Jack Handey

Reply 9 of 20, by shevalier

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Repo Man11 wrote on 2023-08-04, 04:09:

Informative video, I didn't know those types of fans could be disassembled.

Not all.
On the video - non-separable, because the brass bushing is torn out.
The impeller, which is discussed in the topic, due to the split retaining ring, the impeller pops out without a brass bushing.

andre_6 wrote on 2023-08-04, 01:06:

how do I oil it up correctly with WD-40?

No way.
Kerosene (WD-40) is not a oil.
You need to use "high-speed" oil, there is under 4000 - 5000 rpm.

And it's worth correcting the fan curve in BIOS with the RBE from
https://www.techpowerup.com/download/techpowe … on-bios-editor/.
Sapphire 2600 has it very strange by default.

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Reply 10 of 20, by kaputnik

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If it's a sintered bronze bearing or a zz ball bearing, and can be completely removed from the rest of the fan, you could try regenerating it aswell.

Just put the bearing in a suitable synthetic oil, heat it up to 200 deg C, leave it there for some time, and then let it all cool down to room temperature before taking the bearing out from the oil bath. The idea is that trapped air expands when heated and exits the bearing. When it cools down, the remaining trapped air collapses, creates an underpressure, and sucks new oil into the bearing.

The point of using synthetic oil is that the original lubricant is unknown, synthetic oils usually are compatible with just about anything.

Reply 11 of 20, by andre_6

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shevalier wrote on 2023-08-04, 03:25:
Stick your all fingers between the turbine (yep, it's not a fan) and the base and push them in until the turbine pops out. Do no […]
Show full quote
andre_6 wrote on 2023-08-03, 23:24:

Can I remove both halves without destroying it?

Stick your all fingers between the turbine (yep, it's not a fan) and the base and push them in until the turbine pops out.
Do not use tools, only fingers. Otherwise you will break impeller.
like this video
https://youtu.be/opB5Je1oqpA?t=59
Only at the turbine from Sapphire nothing falls out, but the impeller just pops out.

These turbos have an inverted circlip arrangement. Not lower, but above. It is with radial cuts, like a chamomile flower.
Advice, from the owner of the 2600PRO AGP.

Thank you very much for the video and resource, the fan disassembled quite easily, and proceeded to clean and oil it. It sure made a difference, however it lasts it should have been worth it even if just for the cleaning. It wasn't that dirty but I'll take any improvement. Is there a way for a novice to visually know if the fan's bearing is behind a sticker or inbetween both halves as this one was? So I can be sure before removing stickers, etc.?

shevalier wrote on 2023-08-04, 05:33:
Not all. On the video - non-separable, because the brass bushing is torn out. The impeller, which is discussed in the topic, due […]
Show full quote
Repo Man11 wrote on 2023-08-04, 04:09:

Informative video, I didn't know those types of fans could be disassembled.

Not all.
On the video - non-separable, because the brass bushing is torn out.
The impeller, which is discussed in the topic, due to the split retaining ring, the impeller pops out without a brass bushing.

andre_6 wrote on 2023-08-04, 01:06:

how do I oil it up correctly with WD-40?

No way.
Kerosene (WD-40) is not a oil.
You need to use "high-speed" oil, there is under 4000 - 5000 rpm.

And it's worth correcting the fan curve in BIOS with the RBE from
https://www.techpowerup.com/download/techpowe … on-bios-editor/.
Sapphire 2600 has it very strange by default.

Would you mind helping me out with the RBE? I'm supposed to get the latest BIOS for the 2600XT and then just flash it, or is there more to this, are there "fan made BIOS" for specific problems? Also, should I acquire the BIOS with GPU-Z, RBE, or WinFlash?

Or am I supposed to tweak the fan through RBE editing the current BIOS?

kaputnik wrote on 2023-08-04, 07:29:

If it's a sintered bronze bearing or a zz ball bearing, and can be completely removed from the rest of the fan, you could try regenerating it aswell.

Just put the bearing in a suitable synthetic oil, heat it up to 200 deg C, leave it there for some time, and then let it all cool down to room temperature before taking the bearing out from the oil bath. The idea is that trapped air expands when heated and exits the bearing. When it cools down, the remaining trapped air collapses, creates an underpressure, and sucks new oil into the bearing.

The point of using synthetic oil is that the original lubricant is unknown, synthetic oils usually are compatible with just about anything.

That's cool, I supposed it's the method to do when a fan/turbine is not possible to disassemble. Knowing these methods you've exposed me to, I suppose it's a question to correctly identify the fan type in my hands before trying to pry stuff out

Reply 12 of 20, by BitWrangler

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I had a stupid one on an EVGA GT440, went gummy/stiff, felt like original lube went gummy so doubt it was a dry type bearing. get the label off, no cap on the rear, huh, drill through super carefully, hit metal, hmmph, drill off to the side by a couple of mm still metal... but it's not stuck to the plastic... I don't know what's going on, whether it's end of shaft or what... anyway... shelve it... pick it up and scowl at it every so often... one day.. just decide to make a pool of machine oil on it and leave it... inspect in a couple of days, it went somewhere... oh.. and it's moving a bit freer... put more oil on it and left it sitting... check it in a couple more days, lots freer... put more oil on it leave it sitting... yay, seems to be spinning free now... gave it a shake in a paper towel in case it was collecting in hub, but not too much came out.. put yet another drop on top of it and left it, not much of that went in, was spinning like a new fan now, powered if off a PSU, ran it seemed full speed, full power... nice... so wiped it off real careful... put yet another little dot on it overnight.. then assembled it back into the 440.... then that sat another week or two, then finally tested it, ran some benches, fan seemed to go full speed no problem, held up while doing a furmark type test for half an hour or so... am calling it fixed for retro purposes. i.e. not daily use.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 13 of 20, by andre_6

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shevalier wrote on 2023-08-04, 05:33:
Not all. On the video - non-separable, because the brass bushing is torn out. The impeller, which is discussed in the topic, due […]
Show full quote
Repo Man11 wrote on 2023-08-04, 04:09:

Informative video, I didn't know those types of fans could be disassembled.

Not all.
On the video - non-separable, because the brass bushing is torn out.
The impeller, which is discussed in the topic, due to the split retaining ring, the impeller pops out without a brass bushing.

andre_6 wrote on 2023-08-04, 01:06:

how do I oil it up correctly with WD-40?

No way.
Kerosene (WD-40) is not a oil.
You need to use "high-speed" oil, there is under 4000 - 5000 rpm.

And it's worth correcting the fan curve in BIOS with the RBE from
https://www.techpowerup.com/download/techpowe … on-bios-editor/.
Sapphire 2600 has it very strange by default.

Meanwhile I read some tutorials and explored on my own, the graph with the fan curve was really steep. I acquired the BIOS with GPU-Z, made a backup on my USB drive and applied the automatic fan curve settings in RBE, which changed the graph to a more structured curve. Also saved that BIOS (the one to be flashed) to another file.

Funny enough, RBE stated that the original BIOS had been changed using the very same RBE. If that was Sapphire in some way or the previous owner I have no idea.

But I wasn't able to continue with RBE to flash that same BIOS because in the "Acquire/flash BIOS" window to analyze the system it never detects any video card, and states to try Win Flash or Ati Flash instead. Tried WinFlash but it doesn't open, it just freezes up. ATI Flash from what I understood needs to be done through DOS? I have Windows XP.

If anyone knows of a RBE version that can detect my 2600XT or even WinFlash that might open under XP I'd really appreciate it. This is all new territory for me but being a flash away from solving that damn annoying fan curve for good is very enticing. Thank you as always

Reply 14 of 20, by kaputnik

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andre_6 wrote on 2023-08-04, 18:24:

That's cool, I supposed it's the method to do when a fan/turbine is not possible to disassemble. Knowing these methods you've exposed me to, I suppose it's a question to correctly identify the fan type in my hands before trying to pry stuff out

Well, whatever type of computer fan is, the bearing's outer edge is going to be press fitted. Pulling the bearing is just a question of what amount of violence you're ready to subject the fan to . I wouldn't recommend aiming to pull the bearing, but if you pull the impeller as suggested earlier in the thread, and the bearing comes out on the shaft, it should be easy to remove from the shaft, and it might be worth a try to regenerate 😀

A note about that method by the way, you're probably going to stress the plastic close to its limit. Would not try it without having a backup cooling solution, and some feeling and experience of what stresses the material can handle. Those relatively hard thermoplastics tend to snap or at least deform plastically before you know it.

Reply 15 of 20, by shevalier

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ATIflash.exe -unlockrom 0
ATIflash.exe -f -p 0 mb.rom

Worked ati_WIN_flash I can`t find.

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Reply 16 of 20, by andre_6

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shevalier wrote on 2023-08-05, 04:52:

ATIflash.exe -unlockrom 0
ATIflash.exe -f -p 0 mb.rom

Worked ati_WIN_flash I can`t find.

After many hiccups I decided to try AtiWinFlash and it was working per se, but I think that the original BIOS in the card is still locked. It started flashing and then restarted by itself and rebooted to XP saying "Windows recovered from a serious error". I checked and the same BIOS is still on the card.

I unlocked the BIOS that I want to flash, the one that has the correct fan curve settings, so I suppose that the problem is the original BIOS in the card being locked still, so it couldn't flash the new one?

How do I find the actual BIOS file that's in the card so I can unlock it too using AtiWinFlash?

Edit: Forgot that "ATIflash.exe -unlockrom 0" is for the card itself. Kept thinking I had to specify the filename like when unlocking the BIOS that I want to flash.
Unfortunately unlocking the card's BIOS didn't work, also rebooted by itself with XP stating it recovered from a serious error. I can't do it through a bootable USB as the only USB drive that I have can only be formatted to FAT32 or NTFS according to HP USB Disk Storage Format Tool, but not to the needed FAT file system. So I'll wait until someone can borrow me some USB drives that I can try out.

If it comes to this and I'm not able to correct the fan curve to finish the job at least it's a lot better than it was, thank you everyone

Reply 17 of 20, by shevalier

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IIRC, FreeDos and FAT32 is good for AtiFlash.
You may try first "AtiFlash -i" to identify card and flash chip

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Reply 18 of 20, by andre_6

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shevalier wrote on 2023-08-05, 20:06:

IIRC, FreeDos and FAT32 is good for AtiFlash.
You may try first "AtiFlash -i" to identify card and flash chip

"AtiFlash -i" in ATiWinFlash ends up like the other commands, abrupt restart and back to XP with "recovered from serious error".

I'll retry via FreeDos boot when I have the time. My Asus K8V-X never shows my USB drive in the boot priority list, is it even possible to boot from USB with this board?

Thank you as always @shevalier and everyone else

Reply 19 of 20, by shevalier

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You can write DOS on CD-R

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