X600 Pro is DDR only unless the wiki is in error? X600 XT do exist as well.

X600/X700 came in all shapes and forms, including GDDR2.

Even that, 700 Pro is way faster than 600 Pro due to vertex pipelines of 6 vs 2

Not in OpenGL, unless specific conditions are met. And 6 vertex doesn't do square poop, when you're stuck with 4 pixel pipes (X550XT/X700SE).

Completed the build. Full info and detailed benchmarks can be found in this thread.

mockingbird wrote on 2023-09-10, 16:33:

Not to nitpick, but please allow me to modify your original post to better illustrate my point: […]
Show full quote

Not to nitpick, but please allow me to modify your original post to better illustrate my point:

1. In the BIOS, set SATA to IDE Compatible mode (I'm using SATA SSDs) and disable all on-board devices including HDA, LAN, Serial and Parallel ports
2. In the BIOS, set the total number of USB ports to 6 (default is 12) because they take up valuable IRQs
3. Boot from a floppy disk and start the Win98SE installation normally
   After the first stage of the installation completes and the system restarts, boot from the floppy disk once again
4. After the first stage of the installation completes and the system restarts, let it give you the error, reboot from floppy (or reboot with F8 to command prompt)
5. Apply HimemX PATCHMEM and R. Loew's SATA patch then restart
   
6. After the Win98SE installation completes apply R. Loew's patchmem and remove HimemX if no longer needed

The step where you allow it to give you the error is necessary (as opposed to omitting it and directly booting to a command prompt after the first part of the install. Otherwise PATCHMEM will complain that the files weren't decompressed). Still, my method has one less step.

It might be a bit too early for me, but... what's wrong with the method that R. Loew described in the actual patchmem manual? 😀

NEW WINDOWS INSTALLATIONS […]
Show full quote

NEW WINDOWS INSTALLATIONS

If you are doing a clean install of Windows into a Computer having more than
512MB of RAM, you will need to Install the Patch before Windows runs.

If you can reduce the amount of RAM to 512MB or less, you can install
Windows normally, run the PATCHMEM Patch Program, then restore the additional
RAM.

If you need to Install Windows in a system with more than 512MB of RAM
present, you can do so as follows:

1. Place the Patch Program on a DOS Floppy Disk or on a Formatted Partition.
2. Perform the Windows installation until the FIRST reboot.
Do not leave the Computer unattended in case Windows reboots without
prompting.
3. Reboot and holds the CTRL key to get the Windows Startup Menu.
NOTE: If Windows starts without the Startup Menu, it may crash. If so,
press RESET and wait for the Windows Startup Menu. You may need
to turn Power back on if it shuts off.
4. Select the "Command prompt only" option and press ENTER.
5. Run the WININIT Command.
6. Go to the Floppy Disk or Partition where the PATCHMEM Program is located.
7. Run the PATCHMEM Program.
8. Remove the Floppy Disk if present.
9. Press the Reset Button or CTRL-ALT-DEL.
10. Continue the Windows Installation.

In my case, the procedure is very easy and it has always worked for me flawlessly (also, no need to wait for any errors):

1. Make sure that patchmem is already copied on the disk (I keep it on the D: partition).
2. Install Windows 98 SE until the first restart, and then press and hold F8 to bring up the startup menu.
3. Select "Command Prompt Only"
4. Run "wininit" command
5. Run patchmem
6. Reboot and continue the installation.

bloodem wrote on 2023-09-11, 05:20:

It might be a bit too early for me, but... what's wrong with the method that R. Loew described in the actual patchmem manual? : […]
Show full quote

mockingbird wrote on 2023-09-10, 16:33:

Not to nitpick, but please allow me to modify your original post to better illustrate my point: […]
Show full quote

Not to nitpick, but please allow me to modify your original post to better illustrate my point:

1. In the BIOS, set SATA to IDE Compatible mode (I'm using SATA SSDs) and disable all on-board devices including HDA, LAN, Serial and Parallel ports
2. In the BIOS, set the total number of USB ports to 6 (default is 12) because they take up valuable IRQs
3. Boot from a floppy disk and start the Win98SE installation normally
   After the first stage of the installation completes and the system restarts, boot from the floppy disk once again
4. After the first stage of the installation completes and the system restarts, let it give you the error, reboot from floppy (or reboot with F8 to command prompt)
5. Apply HimemX PATCHMEM and R. Loew's SATA patch then restart
   
6. After the Win98SE installation completes apply R. Loew's patchmem and remove HimemX if no longer needed

The step where you allow it to give you the error is necessary (as opposed to omitting it and directly booting to a command prompt after the first part of the install. Otherwise PATCHMEM will complain that the files weren't decompressed). Still, my method has one less step.

It might be a bit too early for me, but... what's wrong with the method that R. Loew described in the actual patchmem manual? 😀

NEW WINDOWS INSTALLATIONS […]
Show full quote

NEW WINDOWS INSTALLATIONS

If you are doing a clean install of Windows into a Computer having more than
512MB of RAM, you will need to Install the Patch before Windows runs.

If you can reduce the amount of RAM to 512MB or less, you can install
Windows normally, run the PATCHMEM Patch Program, then restore the additional
RAM.

If you need to Install Windows in a system with more than 512MB of RAM
present, you can do so as follows:

1. Place the Patch Program on a DOS Floppy Disk or on a Formatted Partition.
2. Perform the Windows installation until the FIRST reboot.
Do not leave the Computer unattended in case Windows reboots without
prompting.
3. Reboot and holds the CTRL key to get the Windows Startup Menu.
NOTE: If Windows starts without the Startup Menu, it may crash. If so,
press RESET and wait for the Windows Startup Menu. You may need
to turn Power back on if it shuts off.
4. Select the "Command prompt only" option and press ENTER.
5. Run the WININIT Command.
6. Go to the Floppy Disk or Partition where the PATCHMEM Program is located.
7. Run the PATCHMEM Program.
8. Remove the Floppy Disk if present.
9. Press the Reset Button or CTRL-ALT-DEL.
10. Continue the Windows Installation.

In my case, the procedure is very easy and it has always worked for me flawlessly (also, no need to wait for any errors):

1. Make sure that patchmem is already copied on the disk (I keep it on the D: partition).
2. Install Windows 98 SE until the first restart, and then press and hold F8 to bring up the startup menu.
3. Select "Command Prompt Only"
4. Run "wininit" command
5. Run patchmem
6. Reboot and continue the installation.

This is what I did..

bloodem wrote on 2023-09-11, 05:20:

It might be a bit too early for me, but... what's wrong with the method that R. Loew described in the actual patchmem manual? 😀

I'm a rebel 😀

Aha! so WININIT decompresses the necessary files to where PATCHMEM can do it's thing... Ok, you just saved me a step. Thanks

Ydee wrote on 2023-09-10, 09:46:

That would be nice to confirm that dual channel is the "deal breaker", thank you very much.

Update: it has been independently confirmed by both @mockingbird and myself that the 4GB memory amount lowers performance under Win98, not dual-channel.

Check the posts here and here.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-09-13, 11:05:

Ydee wrote on 2023-09-10, 09:46:

That would be nice to confirm that dual channel is the "deal breaker", thank you very much.

Update: it has been independently confirmed by both @mockingbird and myself that the 4GB memory amount lowers performance under Win98, not dual-channel.

Check the posts here and here.

Oh yeah, I also remember this and this is why I ended up using 2GB in my build as well! Sorry for being slow and a bit late to remember this 🙁

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-09-13, 11:05:

Ydee wrote on 2023-09-10, 09:46:

That would be nice to confirm that dual channel is the "deal breaker", thank you very much.

Update: it has been independently confirmed by both @mockingbird and myself that the 4GB memory amount lowers performance under Win98, not dual-channel.

Check the posts here and here.

Oh good, no need to pull out one of my two 1GB sticks then.

I've done some preliminary testing with my Asus P5Q Deluxe (P45/ICH10) motherboard and turns out I didn't even need those unofficial ICH drivers, as long I install the OS with /p i switch to disable ACPI, use a couple R. Loews patches and disable USB2 in BIOS both Win98SE and ME install just fine. Then I can re-enable USB2 and direct the motherboard devices with missing drivers (USB and PCI System Management Bus) to official Intel INF drivers intended for Win2k-Win7 which apparently work fine with Win9x? Still need to test IDE drivers though.

I'll do more testing once I swap the GPU, kinda hard to test is the OS stable with late NVIDIA win9x drivers 😀

Sombrero wrote on 2023-09-13, 11:29:

I'll do more testing once I swap the GPU, kinda hard to test is the OS stable with late NVIDIA win9x drivers 😀

Right then, what a mess this turned out to be. Here's a wall of text of my adventures in Win9x lands with Asus P5Q Deluxe:

Windows ME:

I started with WinME because I've never used it before and went on with the assumption it got its bad rep from bad drivers from its early days, and I could potentially only benefit from using it over Win98SE since I have no need for DOS with this PC. Well;

- Right from the start I noticed my USB mouse felt like a PS/2 mouse, like it was at 40hz instead of 125hz. I may have since realized what could have fixed that, more on that later
- Then I noticed the system information tool (msinfo32) didn't work. Instead it opened windows help page that had just an error message, and then would error out when you closed it. Good start! I noticed Microsoft had released a Windows update that fixes the error when closing help pages but I still have no idea what was with msinfo.
- Next usb sticks, that were working fine as they should with WinME, stopped working the second I installed USB2 drivers. Don't know is that something you can fix, didn't get to troubleshoot because:
- That Windows update I mentioned? Well I downloaded a package that had all the updates WinME got, installed them, and the result was an infinite boot loop. Couldn't even get to safe mode

That was that, I'd had enough of WinME

Windows 98SE:

USB2. The hoops I had to jump through to find the correct procedure to get USB2, USB sticks and my USB mouse and keyboard to work cleanly with a fresh Win98SE install without a comedy of errors. First of all it hates legacy USB support, it has to be disabled or one of the two enhanced pci to usb host controllers turns VERY uncooperative. As in either windows feezes up at start up, or it stalls for a while and then loads up with non working USB2. So there goes the ability to go safe mode and all input when booting up with USB stick or floppy unless you re-enable it and disable it again once you're done.

Disabling legacy USB is actually what I think could have fixed the mouse with WinME, I remembered having the same issue with Asus P5K motherboard under WinXP once. Turned out it was caused either by legacy USB support itself or one of its sub-options.

Then there's the USB mouse and keyboard and USB sticks, the only way to get them to work with USB2 enabled is to plug in a PS/2 mouse, remove all USB devices in device manager as nusb tells you to do, install nusb36 (earlier versions do not work), restart, let the driver install automatically for USB keyboard as the PC boots to windows, but to cancel out the USB mouse. Then once Windows has loaded the drivers for the mouse need to be installed through add new hardware. Try to let windows install the mouse drivers automatically at start up? Instant freeze. Try to install the keyboard drivers through add new hardware? Instant feeze. Oh boy.

But what if you want to use IDE? I wanted to use an IDE CD-ROM drive for redbook audio so I enabled the onboard Marvell IDE port. Except that also killed USB2. WTF? Turns out it has a sub option called "Marvell IDE Boot ROM" that allows the PC to boot with IDE devices, and for some baffling reason that HAS to be enabled or USB2 won't work. Okay then, it annoyingly slows down boot up a bit but whatever.

Windows XP won't install if the Marvell IDE port is enabled. It just stalls when it's on. I kinda want XP on the side for maintenace reasons so that's kind of a problem? Added a SATA DVD-drive and disabled the Marvell IDE -> WinXP installs just fine. Now I have to keep re-enabling that too when needed?

On the positive side I finally figured out what was up with my Sound Blaster Audigy 2 with Win98SE. I originally got it for my Pentium 3 machine where it constantly reseted its settings driving me nuts, I tested it on another PC with WinXP and found it working fine so I figured it was probably some compatibility issue with the motherboard. Except it started doing the same immediately with this machine too at every boot. Turned out it was caused by the Creative Restore Defaults tool! That damn thing is supposed to reset the settings only when you run it, not at every reboot! Got rid of it and all is well.

And then the motherboard died 🤣

I think it's something related to SATA functionality. Started with a couple odd freezes, stalling a bit while identifying SATA devices at POST, once the identified HDD name was all garbled up and now I can't even install anything anymore. Great! It's not the hard drive or the SATA port, tried swapping them.

Sigh. Best part is I'm now unsure what issues were caused by incompatibilies with Win9x and what were caused by a failing motherboard.

But you evidently can get an Intel P45 motherboard to work with Win98SE. It just might require a very careful trek through a minefield of pitfalls. Bring lots of patience with you.

Sombrero wrote on 2023-09-22, 09:51:

- That Windows update I mentioned? Well I downloaded a package that had all the updates WinME got, installed them, and the result was an infinite boot loop. Couldn't even get to safe mode

While I do use WinME in one of my builds, I always apply this official Microsoft Update CD right after installing the OS and disabling System Restore. Never had issues with msinfo32 that way. Overall stability is on pair with my Win98SE systems.

Turned out it was caused by the Creative Restore Defaults tool! That damn thing is supposed to reset the settings only when you run it, not at every reboot! Got rid of it and all is well.

Hmm, I install that utility all the time and I haven't noticed any adverse effects yet. My audio settings are preserved normally between reboots. And yeah, I do have a couple of Audigy2 (SB0240) cards now and it works fine with them too.

But you evidently can get an Intel P45 motherboard to work with Win98SE. It just might require a very careful trek through a minefield of pitfalls. Bring lots of patience with you.

Guess I kinda lucked out with the Foxconn P35 motherboard since my experience was a lot smoother. I had no issues with USB 2.0 after installing NUSB 3.3. The IDE support on my board was pretty straightforward as well. It didn't require any special tinkering, other than freeing up enough IRQs for all the controllers to work. To do that, I had to reduce the number of active USB ports to 6 (default was 12) in the BIOS, but that was it.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-09-22, 10:22:

While I do use WinME in one of my builds, I always apply this official Microsoft Update CD right after installing the OS. Never had issues with msinfo32 that way. Overall stability is on pair with my Win98SE systems.

I have wondered is my install media somehow buggered even though I did check the SHA1 hash, or was the faulty motherboard already causing havoc. Or maybe it just doesn't like P45?

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-09-22, 10:22:

Hmm, I install that utility all the time and I haven't noticed any adverse effects yet. My audio settings are preserved normally between reboots. And yeah, I do have a couple of Audigy2 (SB0240) cards now and it works fine with them too.

It must be some really odd issue with my particular card, what on earth could trigger it I have no idea, but at least I've figured out a fix for it.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-09-22, 10:22:

Guess I kinda lucked out with the Foxconn P35 motherboard since my experience was a lot smoother. I had no issues with USB 2.0 after installing NUSB 3.3. The IDE support on my board was pretty straightforward as well. It didn't require any special tinkering, other than freeing up enough IRQs for all the controllers to work. To do that, I had to reduce the number of active USB ports to 6 (default was 12) in the BIOS, but that was it.

I do still have the Asus P5K P35 motherboard I used before, I suppose I could try that. It just has some coil whine issues though not as much as the one I had previously. I'm honestly getting a bit tired of Asus boards of that time period, had too many issues with them so I might wait till some another board shows up with a good price.

Maybe P35 is the last stable stop for Win9x, I did some googling about those unofficial intel INF drivers, they are from here and they say:

"to be used with ICH7/ICH8/ICH9/ICH10. (ICH10 not included yet!)"

Sooo I guess ICH10 is not supported? Don't know why he even listed ICH10 if it was not yet implemented. On page 3 you can find an updated package specifically for ICH10+ but it made no difference for me.

Sombrero wrote on 2023-09-22, 10:48:

It must be some really odd issue with my particular card, what on earth could trigger it I have no idea, but at least I've figured out a fix for it.

I should note that I'm using ZS drivers on all of my Audigy cards under Win9x, including the aforementioned SB0240.

Maybe that "restore defaults" utility is somehow bugged on stock Audigy 2 drivers?

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-09-22, 11:03:

I should note that I'm using ZS drivers on all of my Audigy cards under Win9x, including the aforementioned SB0240.

Maybe that "restore defaults" utility is somehow bugged on stock Audigy 2 drivers?

I did use the ZS drivers from your guide, same problem as with stock Audigy 2 driver CD from april 2003. Looks like they both have the same 1.00.12 version of the tool. I suppose my card is just haunted or something.

Good stuff with your guide by the way, installing the VxD drivers your way has had 100% success rate while the creative WDM -> VxD route has been more like 50% in my experience.

Sombrero wrote on 2023-09-22, 11:21:

I did use the ZS drivers from your guide, same problem as with stock Audigy 2 driver CD from april 2003. Looks like they both have the same 1.00.12 version of the tool. I suppose my card is just haunted or something.

I see. Does it also happen under WinXP when using DanielK's Audigy driver pack?

Good stuff with your guide by the way, installing the VxD drivers your way has had 100% success rate while the creative WDM -> VxD route has been more like 50% in my experience.

Thanks! And yeah, that's pretty much why I created it in the first place. 😁 I was tired of getting random failures when going with the official route.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-09-22, 11:42:

I see. Does it also happen under WinXP when using DanielK's Audigy driver pack?

Never tried, I have tested the card under WinXP with official WDM drivers and had zero issues there.

I stick with my anti-Win9x poltergeist hypothesis 😀

Sombrero wrote on 2023-09-22, 09:51:

Right then, what a mess this turned out to be. Here's a wall of text of my adventures in Win9x lands with Asus P5Q Deluxe: […]
Show full quote

Sombrero wrote on 2023-09-13, 11:29:

I'll do more testing once I swap the GPU, kinda hard to test is the OS stable with late NVIDIA win9x drivers 😀

Right then, what a mess this turned out to be. Here's a wall of text of my adventures in Win9x lands with Asus P5Q Deluxe:

Windows ME:

I started with WinME because I've never used it before and went on with the assumption it got its bad rep from bad drivers from its early days, and I could potentially only benefit from using it over Win98SE since I have no need for DOS with this PC. Well;

- Right from the start I noticed my USB mouse felt like a PS/2 mouse, like it was at 40hz instead of 125hz. I may have since realized what could have fixed that, more on that later
- Then I noticed the system information tool (msinfo32) didn't work. Instead it opened windows help page that had just an error message, and then would error out when you closed it. Good start! I noticed Microsoft had released a Windows update that fixes the error when closing help pages but I still have no idea what was with msinfo.
- Next usb sticks, that were working fine as they should with WinME, stopped working the second I installed USB2 drivers. Don't know is that something you can fix, didn't get to troubleshoot because:
- That Windows update I mentioned? Well I downloaded a package that had all the updates WinME got, installed them, and the result was an infinite boot loop. Couldn't even get to safe mode

That was that, I'd had enough of WinME

Windows 98SE:

USB2. The hoops I had to jump through to find the correct procedure to get USB2, USB sticks and my USB mouse and keyboard to work cleanly with a fresh Win98SE install without a comedy of errors. First of all it hates legacy USB support, it has to be disabled or one of the two enhanced pci to usb host controllers turns VERY uncooperative. As in either windows feezes up at start up, or it stalls for a while and then loads up with non working USB2. So there goes the ability to go safe mode and all input when booting up with USB stick or floppy unless you re-enable it and disable it again once you're done.

Disabling legacy USB is actually what I think could have fixed the mouse with WinME, I remembered having the same issue with Asus P5K motherboard under WinXP once. Turned out it was caused either by legacy USB support itself or one of its sub-options.

Then there's the USB mouse and keyboard and USB sticks, the only way to get them to work with USB2 enabled is to plug in a PS/2 mouse, remove all USB devices in device manager as nusb tells you to do, install nusb36 (earlier versions do not work), restart, let the driver install automatically for USB keyboard as the PC boots to windows, but to cancel out the USB mouse. Then once Windows has loaded the drivers for the mouse need to be installed through add new hardware. Try to let windows install the mouse drivers automatically at start up? Instant freeze. Try to install the keyboard drivers through add new hardware? Instant feeze. Oh boy.

But what if you want to use IDE? I wanted to use an IDE CD-ROM drive for redbook audio so I enabled the onboard Marvell IDE port. Except that also killed USB2. WTF? Turns out it has a sub option called "Marvell IDE Boot ROM" that allows the PC to boot with IDE devices, and for some baffling reason that HAS to be enabled or USB2 won't work. Okay then, it annoyingly slows down boot up a bit but whatever.

Windows XP won't install if the Marvell IDE port is enabled. It just stalls when it's on. I kinda want XP on the side for maintenace reasons so that's kind of a problem? Added a SATA DVD-drive and disabled the Marvell IDE -> WinXP installs just fine. Now I have to keep re-enabling that too when needed?

On the positive side I finally figured out what was up with my Sound Blaster Audigy 2 with Win98SE. I originally got it for my Pentium 3 machine where it constantly reseted its settings driving me nuts, I tested it on another PC with WinXP and found it working fine so I figured it was probably some compatibility issue with the motherboard. Except it started doing the same immediately with this machine too at every boot. Turned out it was caused by the Creative Restore Defaults tool! That damn thing is supposed to reset the settings only when you run it, not at every reboot! Got rid of it and all is well.

And then the motherboard died 🤣

I think it's something related to SATA functionality. Started with a couple odd freezes, stalling a bit while identifying SATA devices at POST, once the identified HDD name was all garbled up and now I can't even install anything anymore. Great! It's not the hard drive or the SATA port, tried swapping them.

Sigh. Best part is I'm now unsure what issues were caused by incompatibilies with Win9x and what were caused by a failing motherboard.

But you evidently can get an Intel P45 motherboard to work with Win98SE. It just might require a very careful trek through a minefield of pitfalls. Bring lots of patience with you.

Huh, what a thrilling read!
I hope you can tune it out and make everything work without any problems, sometimes it's a long shot.

Ydee wrote on 2023-09-22, 15:24:

Huh, what a thrilling read!
I hope you can tune it out and make everything work without any problems, sometimes it's a long shot.

Thanks, I'm sure I will. Just not with that board, it's toast. Not too happy how it decided to die after all the time and effort to find the settings and the procedure to get everything working, but that's how it goes sometimes.

At least I managed to figure out what the issue was with my Audigy 2 and confirm the X700 Pro I got works good. Has Zalman VF900-Cu on it, the card is only 35W so I could slow the fan down with a Noctua NA-RC11. Max temp after an hour of 3DMark03 was 46°C and I just barely could hear the fan over the case fans running at 7V. Wouldn't recommend the Zalman at full 12V though unless you are deaf.

Sombrero wrote on 2023-09-23, 04:38:

At least I managed to figure out what the issue was with my Audigy 2 and confirm the X700 Pro I got works good. Has Zalman VF900-Cu on it, the card is only 35W so I could slow the fan down with a Noctua NA-RC11. Max temp after an hour of 3DMark03 was 46°C and I just barely could hear the fan over the case fans running at 7V. Wouldn't recommend the Zalman at full 12V though unless you are deaf.

Those are excellent temperatures under full load.

Looking forward to your full benchmark results once you set everything up!

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-09-23, 07:07:

Those are excellent temperatures under full load.

Yeah that Zalman was a big reason why I got the card, hoping it could be run very silently and if I ever find myself needing a faster X800 card I could use the cooler on that too.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-09-23, 07:07:

Looking forward to your full benchmark results once you set everything up!

That reminds me, have you been running your E8600 with Max CPUID Value Limit enabled or disabled? Any known issues with leaving it disabled with Win9x?

I've had Cedar Mill Pentium 4 installed there currently but ever since I got a E8600 I've been bouncing between the two unable to settle with either one, and now I'm leaning torwards E8600 again.

Sombrero wrote on 2023-09-23, 08:05:

That reminds me, have you been running your E8600 with Max CPUID Value Limit enabled or disabled? Any known issues with leaving it disabled with Win9x?

I'm not sure if the BIOS of my motherboard even has that setting, at least I don't remember seeing it.

You can find the manual, drivers and other useful info on Soggi's website so let me know if one of the available CPU configuration settings fits that description. I'm fairly certain that I left everything in that section at default, except for the memory timings and voltage, which I had to configure manually.

P.S.

The Win98SE system properties and all 3DMark versions see the E8600 as a Pentium 3. 😁