VOGONS


First post, by douglar

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Looking through wikipedia, I see that Intel's PIIX3 south bridge 82371SB looks like the first chipset that supported USB and came out after the 430FX Triton northbridge. (edit 430, not 440)

Looking through Wikipedia, I see USB 1.0 didn't come out until 1996 but there were a number of 0.x revisions that existed before then.

Were there any motherboards with USB headers that came out before before USB 1.0 was released??

Edit: Good article on the origin of USB: https://www.fastcompany.com/3060705/an-oral-h … tory-of-the-usb

Reply 3 of 42, by ElectroSoldier

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Looking up on this chart the 430HX Triton II was the first to offer USB support not the FX

https://dosdays.co.uk/topics/intel_chipsets.php

And this link shows the boards that have that chipset

https://theretroweb.com/motherboards/?chipset … 76&showImages=1

Reply 5 of 42, by CharlieFoxtrot

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I have Tulip VisionLine dt 5/166 P166MMx LPX style desktop system, which has 430VX chipset with onboard USB. I think it was released in 1997.

I think USB started to appear first with these type of brand computers.

Reply 6 of 42, by douglar

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ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-18, 15:19:

Looking up on this chart the 430HX Triton II was the first to offer USB support not the FX
https://dosdays.co.uk/topics/intel_chipsets.php

I love the DosDays web site. He's a joy to read.

Intel's USB support was not in the north bridge: 430FX, 430HX, 430VX, etc

It was in the South bridge starting with 82371SB (PIIX3). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIIX

I think that south bridge could have worked with any of the 430 north bridges, so it's possible that there are 430FX or 430HX boards with USB, like this:
https://theretroweb.com/motherboards/s/compaq … sario-6700-8700

The reason I'm asking this question because I remember reading a paper(!) article previewing USB in the summer of 1994 or 1995 and they had a picture of a proto type board. For some reason I believe it was an intel 486 board.

Reply 7 of 42, by Repo Man11

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A friend of mine had an Intel AT motherboard that included a USB header, but it said in the manual that it didn't work. It was likely an early revision VX motherboard.

"I'd rather be rich than stupid" - Jack Handey

Reply 8 of 42, by ElectroSoldier

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Yeah my comment was to correct you when you say the 430FX has USB support when it doesnt, the 430HX was the first of that chipset line to offer support in the chipset.

You correcting the correction saying well it might have USB because the southbridge might have it is fair enough, but it doesnt change the fact that the 430FX doesnt have it itself.
If you want to skirt around it like that then just put a PCI card in the mix.

Early implimentions of USB I dont really know, but I do remember the first generation USB 1.0 was almost useless in the early days and it did come along a lot earlier than most people believe/remember.
I wouldnt be surprised if it was based on a 486 board, because the first version of USB was very slow. It wasnt until USB 1.1 that it became useful.

If you look at the wikipedia USB article about version 1.x it tells you that it wasnt really taken up until version 1.1 in '98. That there was no uptake means not only devices but also boards didnt have it, which is born out by the really poor SUB support in Windows 95. It wasnt until 98 that is started to gain any traction as a device connecting standard.

USB was like any other device standard, it was almost certainly developed as an addin first and only later was it intergrated into a chipset, be that north or south bridge.
The first implimentations being in a southbridge chipset, and an Intel southbridge chipset at that, I dont think so. Not at all would they bother. It would be stand alone, implimented on a board like an audio controller could be. and a 486 era I would think yes its old enough to have started there. 486s were still around then.

Dont forget that just because a board has a 430HX chipset that has built in USB support it doesnt mean the manufacturer implemented any hardware to take advantage of it.

Repo Man11 wrote on 2023-10-19, 12:32:

A friend of mine had an Intel AT motherboard that included a USB header, but it said in the manual that it didn't work. It was likely an early revision VX motherboard.

Or a motherboard that had a common PCB over several versions that swapped out chipsets for cheaper versions, or just didnt bother to implement those features because if you dont want to spend the extra money then you dont get the extra features.

Reply 9 of 42, by rmay635703

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Yeah no desktop 486 ever came with soldered USB,
though I can attest USB devices came pretty early as well, as several companies selling cheap scanners and printers forced you to try to get your usb running, I bought a couple devices early 1997 that forced me to buy the usb brackets and spend hours trying to update system files so they would work.

Repo Man11 wrote on 2023-10-19, 12:32:

A friend of mine had an Intel AT motherboard that included a USB header, but it said in the manual that it didn't work. It was likely an early revision VX motherboard.

I was going to mention this

The very first boards with USB followed the pre-release or 1.0rc release candidate revision of USB that didn’t work. (1995)

The first boards with working USB (1/1996) were still gimped as the first revision lacked a lot of common and expected features

A lot of companies ignored USB until 1998 when some key changes were made to the standard

Last edited by rmay635703 on 2023-10-19, 13:04. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 10 of 42, by Repo Man11

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rmay635703 wrote on 2023-10-19, 12:52:
I was going to mention this […]
Show full quote
Repo Man11 wrote on 2023-10-19, 12:32:

A friend of mine had an Intel AT motherboard that included a USB header, but it said in the manual that it didn't work. It was likely an early revision VX motherboard.

I was going to mention this

The very first boards with USB followed the pre-release or 1.0rc release candidate revision of USB that didn’t work. (1995)

The first boards with working USB (1/1996) were still gimped as the first revision lacked a lot of common and expected features

A lot of companies ignored USB until 1998 when some key changes were made to the standard

With my M520, I was surprised that it works as well as it does. I did get a bit of a kick out of connecting and using the USB on a decades old motherboard where it had never been used before. It has a PS/2 mini DIN, as a handful of AT motherboards did, but there's no way to use it in the AT case I have unless I did surgery to the case. I'm not a fan of using USB mice with Windows 98 since you won't have a mouse when in Safe Mode, but it's the best solution for this particular combination.

"I'd rather be rich than stupid" - Jack Handey

Reply 11 of 42, by rmay635703

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Repo Man11 wrote on 2023-10-19, 13:00:
rmay635703 wrote on 2023-10-19, 12:52:
I was going to mention this […]
Show full quote
Repo Man11 wrote on 2023-10-19, 12:32:

A friend of mine had an Intel AT motherboard that included a USB header, but it said in the manual that it didn't work. It was likely an early revision VX motherboard.

I was going to mention this

The very first boards with USB followed the pre-release or 1.0rc release candidate revision of USB that didn’t work. (1995)

The first boards with working USB (1/1996) were still gimped as the first revision lacked a lot of common and expected features

A lot of companies ignored USB until 1998 when some key changes were made to the standard

With my M520, I was surprised that it works as well as it does. I did get a bit of a kick out of connecting and using the USB on a decades old motherboard where it had never been used before. It has a PS/2 mini DIN, as a handful of AT motherboards did, but there's no way to use it in the AT case I have unless I did surgery to the case. I'm not a fan of using USB mice with Windows 98 since you won't have a mouse when in Safe Mode, but it's the best solution for this particular combination.

I had various PCCHIPS board with various header options off the AT keyboard , those systems came in a case with blanks you could pop out around and near the keyboard. The style of my ps2 header fit into a blank for a serial port, it seems like usb was the same.

Reply 12 of 42, by Repo Man11

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rmay635703 wrote on 2023-10-19, 13:07:
Repo Man11 wrote on 2023-10-19, 13:00:
rmay635703 wrote on 2023-10-19, 12:52:
I was going to mention this […]
Show full quote

I was going to mention this

The very first boards with USB followed the pre-release or 1.0rc release candidate revision of USB that didn’t work. (1995)

The first boards with working USB (1/1996) were still gimped as the first revision lacked a lot of common and expected features

A lot of companies ignored USB until 1998 when some key changes were made to the standard

With my M520, I was surprised that it works as well as it does. I did get a bit of a kick out of connecting and using the USB on a decades old motherboard where it had never been used before. It has a PS/2 mini DIN, as a handful of AT motherboards did, but there's no way to use it in the AT case I have unless I did surgery to the case. I'm not a fan of using USB mice with Windows 98 since you won't have a mouse when in Safe Mode, but it's the best solution for this particular combination.

I had various PCCHIPS board with various header options off the AT keyboard , those systems came in a case with blanks you could pop out around and near the keyboard. The style of my ps2 header fit into a blank for a serial port, it seems like usb was the same.

I bought this system off Craigslist because I wanted the case, and I was actually hoping that it had a 486 motherboard as the case badge indicated. But it had been (poorly) upgraded - the first thing I noticed was that it had 128 megabytes of memory, which exceeds the cacheable range, but looking more closely it had no L2 cache at all! The motherboard's cache chips were fake, and the COAST slot was empty! I suppose it was faster than the 486 that it replaced, but with a PR 120 K5 CPU, no L2, and a slow hard drive, it wasn't nearly as much of an improvement as it would have been with a faster CPU and some L2 memory.

"I'd rather be rich than stupid" - Jack Handey

Reply 13 of 42, by douglar

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This was interesting from April 9th 1996 PC Magazine:

https://books.google.com/books?id=9cpU5uYCzq4 … e&q=usb&f=false

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There's only one entry in the retro web for that chipset, and it has a USB header---

https://theretroweb.com/motherboards/s/fic-pa-2007

Reply 14 of 42, by dionb

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douglar wrote on 2023-10-19, 19:36:
This was interesting from April 9th 1996 PC Magazine: […]
Show full quote

This was interesting from April 9th 1996 PC Magazine:

https://books.google.com/books?id=9cpU5uYCzq4 … e&q=usb&f=false

usb.png

There's only one entry in the retro web for that chipset, and it has a USB header---

https://theretroweb.com/motherboards/s/fic-pa-2007

The PA-2007 you link to is VP2 (also known as AMD640, but that's a different story), not the original VP. That was present on the PA-2005 and a pile of other boards. The PA-2005 definitely had a USB header. It looks like Retroweb has some data quality issues (probably inherited from TH99), as the FIC PA-2010+ ATX board is listed under Apollo VP, but it's actually a VPX board. The PA-2010 with VP has silkscreen for USB, but no actual ports.

Reply 15 of 42, by ubiq

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Earliest board I have with USB is this 430VX one. Looks like it was released fall '96. It's got non-standard headers:

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The rows are spaced just a little so that a 2x8 IDC connector won't fit. 🤨

Reply 16 of 42, by snufkin

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I'm not sure if the Apollo VP chipset / VT82C586 Southbridge ever had working USB support, even if boards had the header. There was a thread a while back ( Re: FIC PA-2005 USB pinout ) and I had a quick look then at a couple of other VP boards and they had the same sort of wording in their manuals that USB support would be added with a later BIOS update, which never seems to have happened. Wikipedia says the VP2 was available Q3 1996, but that doesn't really help with a definite answer about which board had the first working USB support.

[edit: not conclusive, but looking at board on retroweb using the VP2 chipset, and looking at BIOS dates, then:
https://theretroweb.com/motherboards/s/compaq … 5200-#downloads has a BIOS from 12th August '96 (assuming US date format) or 8th Dec '96, although the manual (2nd edition) is from Sept '97. Think some versions of the Deskpro 2000 were around in '96]

[quick look at some Intel board, this https://theretroweb.com/motherboards/s/advanc … .-4.0#downloads has BIOSes that look like they have date strings of 15th July '95, and the silkscreen on the board is copyright '95. Seems pretty early given the Wikipedia entry for the 430HX says it came out Feb '96]

[last edit... a discussion here: https://www.os2museum.com/wp/usb-0-9/ led to the July '96 edition of PC Magazine:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=2KIKOEwqk … e&q=usb&f=false

On page 40/41 is a review of the IBM PC350, including the line: "The rear of the machine offers a glimpse of the future of PCs: The system's pair of USB interfaces is the first set of USB plugs we've seen on a PC. Too bad that there are neither peripherals nor drivers available for them at this time."

But from that os2museum link then it looks like trying to identify if a motherboard actually had working USB support, rather than just the headers, will be tricky]

Last edited by snufkin on 2023-10-19, 22:16. Edited 4 times in total.

Reply 18 of 42, by the3dfxdude

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ubiq wrote on 2023-10-19, 20:17:

Earliest board I have with USB is this 430VX one. Looks like it was released fall '96. It's got non-standard headers:
IMG_5455.jpeg

The rows are spaced just a little so that a 2x8 IDC connector won't fit. 🤨

Is it really non-standard? I have alot of slot brackets that are split to accommodate something like that. Yes, they have 5 pins, but the 5th pin is a NC/GND, and not really needed, and so you only really need 4. So unless the pins are rearranged or something I can't see, that looks pretty normal.

I checked my Triton II, and it's 4 pin for each USB port, but in a combined pin header.

Reply 19 of 42, by ElectroSoldier

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Yeah I think a lot of you guys are misunderstanding or not quite understanding how USB support manifested itself in the old chipsets.

Ill try and explain then maybe it will make some things which I see being talked about clearer or make sense.

The northbridge and southbridge is a partenership in USB operations. the southbridge contains the USB controller proper while the northbridge controls the IO operations of the southbridge.
The 82371SB (PIIX) was released and it was partnered with the 430FX northbridge then the 82371SB (PIIX3) was released and was partnered with the 430HX northbridge chipset. (The names of the chips doesnt really matter for the purposes of explaining)
The two pairs of chips PIIX/430FX without USB and PIIX3/430HX with USB.
The PIIX3/430HX pair have USB support when matched together, the controller itself is in the PIIX3 (Southbridge) but the ability to use it lives in the 430HX (Northbridge), so you could take a PIIX3 chipset and match it to a 430FX northbridge and it would not have USB support even though there is technically a USB controller on the board, because the northbridge is simply incapable of using it. But then you could mount a PIIX chipset that doesnt have a USB controller match it to a 430HX that knows how to use a USB controller but it cant because the controller proper simply isnt present in the system.

So while you say in the first post the 82371SB (PIIX3) was the first chipset to support USB and the 430FX did but it came out after is sort of besides the point. Because like I said above it needs both. And going only from memory there has never been a northbridge chipset with a USB controller, its always been in the southbridge. Which is why USB gave the IO overhead on the CPU that it does (or did).

You are looking for a board with both chips that support USB operations, simply having a 82371SB (PIIX3) in your system does not mean it will support USB, it might have the header physically on the board, but unless its matched to a northbridge that can control operations it cant work.

Early revisions of USB might well be a thing in motherboards I dont know, I USB 1.0 was the first revision I knew (and back then it was mostly useless)

The post above about the VIA chipset that was first to support USB. I wouldnt be suprised in the least, that was always a thing about VIA, they always liked to push the boundries, I remember they were always good at bringing some interesting tech to market but it was always scuppered by something, like a Pentium 3 board that offered a 133FSB so you got to use the /133 chips but the IDE controller was the slower 33 and not the latest 66 version or something like that. They always had something "wrong" with them, but the boards were cheaper.

This also leads onto why the modern glut of Chinese frankenstein boards work but not in the way you might expect them to because the way they mate chips together, or physical hardware, like the boards chipset might support VT-d but there is no way to use it because of its physical implementation on the board...

Then on top of all that you need the BIOS to support the operations, so the chip might well support USB, but with no way in the BIOS to enable to ports they might not work.
I had an MSI board like that, Firewire support was there, the traces were on the board, all you needed to do to enable it was to solder on the controller chip and the header and it looked like it would work, but there was no way to enable it because it wasnt an option in the BIOS. And that could go the other way around. The BIOS option is there but the hardware has been physically removed... Thats a bad example as it would mean there is nothing to enable as there is no controller chip but you see what I mean, its a partenership between things.