Vagabund2k wrote on 2023-11-26, 21:01:

Regarding the LG Dualup monitor, my train of thought was as follows: My Retro Room doubles as my home office, and currently, I h […]
Show full quote

Regarding the LG Dualup monitor, my train of thought was as follows:
My Retro Room doubles as my home office, and currently, I have 2 x Dell 1440p monitors there for the work computer and 1 x Dell 2007FPB for my retro clients. If I replace the Dell 2007FPB with the Dualup + Retrotink 4k, I'll have:

- A larger screen for my vintage computers that maximizes the available screen space (compared to widescreen monitors).
- An additional (large) monitor that I can use productively for work.
- Use CRT Filters via the Retrotink 4k
- A Retrotink 4k that I can also connect to our 4K TV to run my old consoles there.

It's expensive, but it's also my hobby, and if good results are expected, it would be worth it to me.
If I understand correctly, the Retrotink 4k also doesn't solve the frameskip 70Hz / 60Hz problem, right?

What you are describing is why I was using my 2048x1536 CRT as one of the crew for modern actives since I have more use for vertical resolution.
Also it was already on my vintage computer desk and works as an HD 4:3 tv and for vintage activities .

Best of all worlds, and since it’s a secondary screen I can use the LCD also

An oldie mentioning “ vintage” multifunction displays their response times, these couple screens have the best chance of handling various refresh rates of the antique 4:3 LCDs, unfortunate they are all small and low resolution

https://web.archive.org/web/20060313164345/ht … l.asp?id=100278

hard_fault wrote on 2023-11-26, 17:35:

Dell U2410.

That monitor has atrocious wide gamut on video ports on top of shitty calibration. Everything looks oversaturated. First revision can't even properly emulate sRGB color space on PC ports, unless you obtain unofficial firmware.

Maybe it has already been mentioned, and I'm sure you guys would be able to properly explain why it's great or why it sucks: I was looking for a beige LCD to better match my 486, and found the Samsung Syncmaster 151s. Beyond its appropriately beige and retroish aesthetic, I was very pleased and surprised with its sharpness and crisp image either in DOS or Win 3.1, and the colors really pop on the latter, and in DOS games. Didn't notice any resolution/scaling issues on my part

Vagabund2k wrote on 2023-11-26, 21:01:

Regarding the LG Dualup monitor, my train of thought was as follows: My Retro Room doubles as my home office, and currently, I h […]
Show full quote

Regarding the LG Dualup monitor, my train of thought was as follows:
My Retro Room doubles as my home office, and currently, I have 2 x Dell 1440p monitors there for the work computer and 1 x Dell 2007FPB for my retro clients. If I replace the Dell 2007FPB with the Dualup + Retrotink 4k, I'll have:

- A larger screen for my vintage computers that maximizes the available screen space (compared to widescreen monitors).
- An additional (large) monitor that I can use productively for work.
- Use CRT Filters via the Retrotink 4k
- A Retrotink 4k that I can also connect to our 4K TV to run my old consoles there.

It's expensive, but it's also my hobby, and if good results are expected, it would be worth it to me.
If I understand correctly, the Retrotink 4k also doesn't solve the frameskip 70Hz / 60Hz problem, right?

For these options eg a 32-43 inch (oled) would be better, but it is on really you, what do you prefer, just i really cannot see, what is the advantage of this dualup lg.

It has weird 16:18 ratio with 60hz - practically any better ips (black ips) or oled with vrr would be better.

andre_6 wrote on 2023-11-27, 05:27:

Maybe it has already been mentioned, and I'm sure you guys would be able to properly explain why it's great or why it sucks: I was looking for a beige LCD to better match my 486, and found the Samsung Syncmaster 151s. Beyond its appropriately beige and retroish aesthetic, I was very pleased and surprised with its sharpness and crisp image either in DOS or Win 3.1, and the colors really pop on the latter, and in DOS games. Didn't notice any resolution/scaling issues on my part

For DOS gaming looks ok, can do the 640x350@70Hz. Is has some limits for some other res but overall not a bad monitor by PC spec's. It cannot do the low MAC res's which for some would make it not a good choice (for those who do PC and MAC).

arncht wrote on 2023-11-27, 05:45:

For these options eg a 32-43 inch (oled) would be better, but it is on really you, what do you prefer, just i really cannot see, what is the advantage of this dualup lg.

It has weird 16:18 ratio with 60hz - practically any better ips (black ips) or oled with vrr would be better.

Good points. I have a Benq that can rotate and do Portrait mode if need be (no, rarely use it) and has true 4:3 Mode and can run as low as 25Hz vert
But is not a "good" DOS gaming monitor.

andre_6 wrote on 2023-11-27, 05:27:

Maybe it has already been mentioned, and I'm sure you guys would be able to properly explain why it's great or why it sucks: I was looking for a beige LCD to better match my 486, and found the Samsung Syncmaster 151s. Beyond its appropriately beige and retroish aesthetic, I was very pleased and surprised with its sharpness and crisp image either in DOS or Win 3.1, and the colors really pop on the latter, and in DOS games. Didn't notice any resolution/scaling issues on my part

Vintage syncmasters were
1. Expensive
2. Shared components with so called multi-purpose TV Monitor products.
A) Multisync

A gimmick many sync masters had was playing FM radio or TV while you worked off a built in tuner which was novel at the time.

As such they are moderately uncommon but unlike other LCDs have excellent multisync support considering the 15khz and PAL compatibility and thus have better DOS support.

They also had much better scalers than typical LCDs due to the TV support on some models

Belinea model 10 19 20

Good fast panel, works great in older games.

Vagabund2k wrote on 2023-11-26, 21:01:

Regarding the LG Dualup monitor, my train of thought was as follows: My Retro Room doubles as my home office, and currently, I h […]
Show full quote

Regarding the LG Dualup monitor, my train of thought was as follows:
My Retro Room doubles as my home office, and currently, I have 2 x Dell 1440p monitors there for the work computer and 1 x Dell 2007FPB for my retro clients. If I replace the Dell 2007FPB with the Dualup + Retrotink 4k, I'll have:

- A larger screen for my vintage computers that maximizes the available screen space (compared to widescreen monitors).
- An additional (large) monitor that I can use productively for work.
- Use CRT Filters via the Retrotink 4k
- A Retrotink 4k that I can also connect to our 4K TV to run my old consoles there.

It's expensive, but it's also my hobby, and if good results are expected, it would be worth it to me.
If I understand correctly, the Retrotink 4k also doesn't solve the frameskip 70Hz / 60Hz problem, right?

I guess if you look at it like that, in that your expectations are so little from it then it wont disapoint.
And when you look at the price of what 2x 27" 4k IPS screens would cost you then the £700 for a DualUp isnt all that bad. In fact its about right.
I didnt go the RetroTINK 4k route myself, I went with the more expensive option, a professional scaler, to get the outputs I wanted, which is maybe why I didnt see a problem on the monitor I use... Not sure. I would have to retry but this time plugged into the PC rather than a scaler which would be a pain to set up now.

Yeah the RetroTINK is doing all its suppose to, its the monitor that cant do it. You need to be able to change the refresh rate to one that the monitor can do without changing the refresh rate because thats what the game looks best in...
allegedly
None of these guys can actually tell you if its ok to upscale the output from the game to a higher refresh rate and keep all the quality of the original output.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-27, 19:53:

I guess if you look at it like that, in that your expectations are so little from it then it wont disapoint. And when you look a […]
Show full quote

Vagabund2k wrote on 2023-11-26, 21:01:

Regarding the LG Dualup monitor, my train of thought was as follows: My Retro Room doubles as my home office, and currently, I h […]
Show full quote

Regarding the LG Dualup monitor, my train of thought was as follows:
My Retro Room doubles as my home office, and currently, I have 2 x Dell 1440p monitors there for the work computer and 1 x Dell 2007FPB for my retro clients. If I replace the Dell 2007FPB with the Dualup + Retrotink 4k, I'll have:

- A larger screen for my vintage computers that maximizes the available screen space (compared to widescreen monitors).
- An additional (large) monitor that I can use productively for work.
- Use CRT Filters via the Retrotink 4k
- A Retrotink 4k that I can also connect to our 4K TV to run my old consoles there.

It's expensive, but it's also my hobby, and if good results are expected, it would be worth it to me.
If I understand correctly, the Retrotink 4k also doesn't solve the frameskip 70Hz / 60Hz problem, right?

I guess if you look at it like that, in that your expectations are so little from it then it wont disapoint.
And when you look at the price of what 2x 27" 4k IPS screens would cost you then the £700 for a DualUp isnt all that bad. In fact its about right.
I didnt go the RetroTINK 4k route myself, I went with the more expensive option, a professional scaler, to get the outputs I wanted, which is maybe why I didnt see a problem on the monitor I use... Not sure. I would have to retry but this time plugged into the PC rather than a scaler which would be a pain to set up now.

Yeah the RetroTINK is doing all its suppose to, its the monitor that cant do it. You need to be able to change the refresh rate to one that the monitor can do without changing the refresh rate because thats what the game looks best in...
allegedly
None of these guys can actually tell you if its ok to upscale the output from the game to a higher refresh rate and keep all the quality of the original output.

which scaler?

arncht wrote on 2023-11-27, 21:06:

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-27, 19:53:

I guess if you look at it like that, in that your expectations are so little from it then it wont disapoint. And when you look a […]
Show full quote

Vagabund2k wrote on 2023-11-26, 21:01:

Regarding the LG Dualup monitor, my train of thought was as follows: My Retro Room doubles as my home office, and currently, I h […]
Show full quote

Regarding the LG Dualup monitor, my train of thought was as follows:
My Retro Room doubles as my home office, and currently, I have 2 x Dell 1440p monitors there for the work computer and 1 x Dell 2007FPB for my retro clients. If I replace the Dell 2007FPB with the Dualup + Retrotink 4k, I'll have:

- A larger screen for my vintage computers that maximizes the available screen space (compared to widescreen monitors).
- An additional (large) monitor that I can use productively for work.
- Use CRT Filters via the Retrotink 4k
- A Retrotink 4k that I can also connect to our 4K TV to run my old consoles there.

It's expensive, but it's also my hobby, and if good results are expected, it would be worth it to me.
If I understand correctly, the Retrotink 4k also doesn't solve the frameskip 70Hz / 60Hz problem, right?

I guess if you look at it like that, in that your expectations are so little from it then it wont disapoint.
And when you look at the price of what 2x 27" 4k IPS screens would cost you then the £700 for a DualUp isnt all that bad. In fact its about right.
I didnt go the RetroTINK 4k route myself, I went with the more expensive option, a professional scaler, to get the outputs I wanted, which is maybe why I didnt see a problem on the monitor I use... Not sure. I would have to retry but this time plugged into the PC rather than a scaler which would be a pain to set up now.

Yeah the RetroTINK is doing all its suppose to, its the monitor that cant do it. You need to be able to change the refresh rate to one that the monitor can do without changing the refresh rate because thats what the game looks best in...
allegedly
None of these guys can actually tell you if its ok to upscale the output from the game to a higher refresh rate and keep all the quality of the original output.

which scaler?

Also interested in the scaler model.

Very much depends on which part of my system youre talking about, but I have a Kramer VP-440 and a VP719XL for scaling.
The 719XL was the cheaper of the two but thats the one that can output the retro games resolutions, regardless of what comes into it it puts out what I tell it to. Which is maybe why I didnt get dropped frames.
I have the 440 because its up to HD and HD over ethernet.

Theyre great little things, but the outputs all put out the same thing, which is why I have them mated up with matrix switchers. Which means I can put the signal from say for instance my GameCube to the scaler then into the switcher and into my capture card and/or any of my monitor/s.
Which is why I never considered a RetroTINK. Though that box does have a SCART, which would be nice to have, but hardly used.

My 4K 27" monitor cost me 250 CAN$ + taxes when new about a year ago. It was on special.

It's a 60Hz model, though.
https://www.samsung.com/us/business/support/o … ies-s27a704nwn/

700£ is about 1200 CAN$ , which is a huge amount for 2 x 60Hz 4K IPS monitors around here.

These are 283 CAN$ + taxes where I am :
https://www.samsung.com/us/computing/monitors … lu28r550uqnxza/

EDIT : Not saying that my examples are necessarily appropriate for retro use. These are just examples.

darry wrote on 2023-11-27, 22:35:

My 4K 27" monitor cost me 250 CAN$ + taxes when new about a year ago. It was on special. […]
Show full quote

My 4K 27" monitor cost me 250 CAN$ + taxes when new about a year ago. It was on special.

It's a 60Hz model, though.
https://www.samsung.com/us/business/support/o … ies-s27a704nwn/

700£ is about 1200 CAN$ , which is a huge amount for 2 x 60Hz 4K IPS monitors around here.

These are 283 CAN$ + taxes where I am :
https://www.samsung.com/us/computing/monitors … lu28r550uqnxza/

Well Im not going to disagree with you on that, I mean i think for what it is the DualUp is expensive. I thought the same when I saw it in the shop. Its an impressive monitor in the flesh but for the use I would get out of it i think its expensive.
However if you take a look at HP.com and look for a couple of 27" 4k IPS monitors then the £700 is about right. Theyre selling the same specs for £395 each, double that up to £790.

Off topic but related to monitors: I notice how cheap some stands are on some very expensive 4k 27" Bus/Pro grade monitors, one would think that for the money you would get a stand that is actually strong, adjustable multi ways and built like an expensive monitor stand. In some cases it is like you are buying a $500 display on a $10 stand....rare other times you see a $500 display on a $50-80 stand.... just an observation.
If I spend $500 or more on a new monitor it better allow tilt, pivot and height change (and a plus would be rotate) 😀

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-27, 22:25:

Very much depends on which part of my system youre talking about, but I have a Kramer VP-440 and a VP719XL for scaling. The 719X […]
Show full quote

Very much depends on which part of my system youre talking about, but I have a Kramer VP-440 and a VP719XL for scaling.
The 719XL was the cheaper of the two but thats the one that can output the retro games resolutions, regardless of what comes into it it puts out what I tell it to. Which is maybe why I didnt get dropped frames.
I have the 440 because its up to HD and HD over ethernet.

Theyre great little things, but the outputs all put out the same thing, which is why I have them mated up with matrix switchers. Which means I can put the signal from say for instance my GameCube to the scaler then into the switcher and into my capture card and/or any of my monitor/s.
Which is why I never considered a RetroTINK. Though that box does have a SCART, which would be nice to have, but hardly used.

I checked the documentation, i cannot imagine, this is the holy grail of the retro scalers for dos. The input profiling is nice, but the output not so flexible (eg pass the right frequency), and the outputs are also outdated.

The ideal scaler would be:
* output the most common modern resolutions (1080p, 2160p, 1440p etc with various widths)
* keep the original frequency or convert to a fixed one (eg 60hz)
* filtering options
* profiles for inputs to keep the original ratio

So the ad part just should make a 1:1 pass through, and make a perfectly scaled output w/o monitor processing. eg 640x400 70hz to 3840x2160 70hz (you need a vrr display) with 4:3 ratio and use nearest neighbor filter.

It can do all of that, its only flaw is its age, it doesnt have the modern connectors. Thats it. But thats why I have the others.
For running old games it works amazingly well.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-28, 09:59:

It can do all of that, its only flaw is its age, it doesnt have the modern connectors. Thats it. But thats why I have the others.
For running old games it works amazingly well.

so it can output eg 3440x1440 70hz? the pdf said, you can choose eg 1080p with selectable refresh (60, 75, 85, etc).

Why would I want to do that?
You seem to be forgetting we are talking about playing old dos games. That is your idea of what you want from a scaler.
The 719XL maximum is 1600x1200 60Hz. To bump the refresh rate to 85Hz you have to come down to 1280x1024.

If I wanted to do 1440 then I really wouldnt be thinking of buying something as cheap and "Bob built it in his back yard garage" as a RetroTINK4k!

If you want modern resolutions then you would have to get the newer version of my 719XL. Kramer do several and all of them will knock spots off the RetroTINK 😉

Yeah having now read some of your past posts I can see a pattern forming, which is where I think this conversation ends.

Because people want a bridge between the modern display and the old sources, and the modern display cannot do a proper scaling. Basically from every displays, what we mentioned here, missing something, especially if you want a modern display (oled, ips black, mini led, etc) in the right size. The latest better “modern” displays are already 5-10+ years old.

It is a small market, i do not think any serious big company will do some proper solution, so we will stuck with “bob”, and i am really thankful, if somebody spent his/her time to create something for our community.

Then I can highly recommend the Kramer VP-440X instead of the Kramer VP-719XL.
However when you put the two together along with a matrix switcher you can come up with something far more, like I said earlier...
Out of a consoles composite output into the 719, then into the 440 then on to any 4k screen you like, fully upscaled to 4k...

There are options out there beyond the box that Bob built, it just depends on how much you are actually willing to pay for it.
Which goes back to what I said at the start that elicited your response.

About putting DOS Doom through your 34" ultra wide, I think you are going to have to call that an own goal with regards to retro gaming though. You might have to settle for a regular old 4k screen...
Youre having problems because your trying to scale it to what is even now such a weird resolution... 34" ultra wides are only good for Adobe PP or FCP and because you get to see so much of the timeline...
Though it would be nice in portrait for coding.
The LG DualUp has the same kind of problem.
Consider what youre starting with, and try and work to it but keep it within reason.