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Dual PIII build notes (mostly on the software setup side)

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First post, by Deano

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Hello,
Here are my build notes for a unusual(ish) build.

Goals:

  • Window 9x/W2k/early XP game machine,
  • Good for DirectX prior to 9 games machine, cut off date = release of Silent Hill 2 PC (last game pre DX9 game I was involved with)
  • 1997 - 2002 era - nice if able to play some games few year either side but not its aim
  • Good sound support for a PCI only board - SoundBlaster Pro (16 would be nice but...), OPL, General Midi
  • As little emulation if possible (Currently a Glide wrapper is an exception, if problematic will get a Voodoo 2 for it, possible MT32??)

Motherboard:
Acer M25D-II

  • VIA133T chipset
  • PIIIx2 socket 370
  • 5xPCI
  • AGP Pro (x4)
  • 2xSCSI3 68 pin (Adaptec)
  • 3xSDRAM133 Memory,
  • 100Mb Ethernet NIC
  • 1xP,2xS, 2xPS2, 2xUSB1.1.

CPUs: 2xPIII-1.4Ghz
Video card: NVIDIA FX5900XT
Sound card: PCI Yamaha DS-XG YM724 (using DDMA)
RAM: 512MB (2x128 + 1*256) PC133 CL3
Drives: 40GB PATA IDE (Boot) + 80GB PATA IDE
Drive Setup:

  • 40GB Boot
    ---------
    0: FAT32 13GB WIN98SE
    1: NTFS 13GB WIN2K SP4
    2: NTFS 13GB WINXP SP3
  • 80GB Data
    ---------
    0: FAT32 31.2GB 80_A
    1: FAT32 31.2GB 80_B
    2: FAT32 14.8GB 80_C

Install Order:

  • Win9x
  • Win2k
  • WinXP

GPU has stable AGPx4 with VIA driver specified in "Install Notes"
Win98 has 16 bit audio in windows, and Yamaha General Midi + real OPL3 under DOS window, SB PRO compat on S220 I5 DMA1 T4
NT based have 16 bit audio
Pure DOS has real OPL3 + SB PRO compat on S220 I5 DMA1 T4 [But it doesn't seem to work very well at all 🙁]

Running WinXP, partition 80GB Data drive

BIOS:
Ctrl-Alt-Esc to enter BIOS, F12 Boot Menu
Has a very weird bios, with very few options and some of the useful ones hidden behind pressing F8 (for advanced mode).
Advanced Mode adds an extra menu item AND gives more option in various other menu items.
Doesn't detect IDE drives until it tries booting. So after adding/changing drives let it run till it starts trying to reboot, then reset and go into the bios menus
If not using ECC memory, will give a parity error, disable ECC under Advanced menu item
In Advanced Menu, set manual PCI mode, go through each slot making sure the INTA column DOES NOT use IRQ 5 (so Win98 Yamaha Legacy driver can use it)

I have a RetroNAS setup, all OSs have driver for the onboard NIC which makes life very easy.

Win98SE
-------

  • Connect R: to \\retrosmb\retronas
  • Install 7z920 for 7 Zip -Run 7-Zip File Manager, Tools->Options Select All, OK
  • Install VIA_4in1_443 - Install everything, enable DMA
  • Install NV 56.55
  • Install Yamaha DX-XG 4.07.1040
  • Install Alcohol 120% Retro Edition
  • Copy Win98se CD to C:
  • Copy Win98se DOS to C:/DOS
  • Copy dir Win98Se/Tools/OLDMSDOS to C:/DOS
  • Copy YM724 RealDOS folder to DOS/Yamaha
  • Copy patched SetupDS.exe to DOS/Yamaha - edit ds.ini FirstTry=1
  • Copy MTRRLFBE.EXE to C:\DOS
  • Set BootGui=0 in msdos.sys
  • Setup DOS Config with Win98 + a few DOS config
  • Add "MTRRLFBE VGA WC" line to DOS WC autoexec.bat
  • Add "MTRRLFBE LFB WC" line to DOS WC autoexec.bat
  • Install instmsi.exe

Win2K
-----

  • Connect R: to \\retrosmb\retronas
  • Switch to 800x600 using built in SVGA
  • Install 7z2301 for 7 Zip - Run 7-Zip File Manager, Tools->Options Click first +, OK
  • Install VIA_4in1_443 Install everything
  • Install NV 56.55
  • Install Alcohol 120% Retro Edition

WinXP
-----

  • Connect R: to \\retrosmb\retronas
  • Turn off all updates/firewall/av etc.
  • Disable XP themes for classic 9x look (also faster/less memory)
  • Install 7z2301 for Z Zip - Run 7-Zip File Manager, Tools->Options Click first +, OK
  • Install Ghost 2003 to backup all drives
  • Backup OS Disks to ghost (high compression) on 80_A
  • Copy backup to R:
  • Install Alcohol 120% Retro Edition
  • Install NV 56.55 (Has newer drivers by default but no OpenGL on them!

Pure DOS: From Win98 config menu
Run SetupDS (must be the patched version that supports Via K133x boards) - select DDMA, set DOS BLASTER to setting used in SetupDS (S220, I5, D1)

TODO:
-----
Play and stream some games!
Pure DOS has sound problems- ie. DOOM crashes with sound enabled (probably just need right set of config items)
Gameport MIDI for GM/MT32 under Pure DOS
Try 'new' DOS utils - JEMM, CD emulators, mouse, etc.
Find optimal drivers for XP
Setup better GM bank for Win98
Setup soft GM under WinXP
Extract BIOS and upload to Retroweb
Find newer or maybe mod the BIOS for more options?
Try out SCSI (need correct cable)
Get a period appropriate case (currently using a modern E-ATX case)
Get some CL2 memory (maybe max it out with 1.5GB for XP but will need limiter for Win9x)
Remove WIn2K if not used?

Some rough benchmarks (mostly used for stablity testing with various cards, lucked out on the 5900 at the last moment, so haven't done much actual benchmarking with it yet, will do better ones when 'finished')
CPU-Z:
Win98se: 2337.2 FPU 10081.3
Win2ksp4: 2337.2 FPU 10186.1

  • ATI Rage128 Ultra Dell:
    • 3dmark 99max - 4930 CPU 21217
  • NV RIVA TNT2 M64 32MB 64 bit NV 5 AGP 4x (GPU 125MHZ, 150Mhz Mem)
    • 3dmark 99max - 5383.56 CPU 21136.20 1613.37 3DRasterMarks
    • 3dmark 2000 - 2259 CPU 249
  • NV GF2 MX100/200 32 MB 64 bit NV11DDR
    • 3dmark 99 max - 5509 CPU 20474
    • 3dmark 2000 - 2910
    • 3dmark 2001se - 1216
  • NV GF2 MX400 64 MB 128 bit NV11 Abit Siluro GF2 T400
    • 3dmark 99 max - 5924 CPU 20712
    • 3dmark 2000 - 4626
    • 3dmark 2001se - 2639
  • NV FX5200 128MB 64 bit NV34 AGP 2x (GPU 250 Mhz, 165Mhz Mem)
    • 3dmark 99 max - 5975 CPU 20778
    • win98se 3dmark 2000 - 4915
    • win2ksp4 3dmark 2000 - Crash Halfway through Adventure High
    • win98se 3dmark 2001se - 3815
    • win2ksp4 3dmark 2000 - 4008
  • NV FX5200 128 MB 64 bit NV34 MSI MS-8936 AGP 2x (GPU 200Mhz, 200 Mhz Mem)
    • 3dmark 99 max - 5965 CPU 20482
    • win98se 3dmark 2000 - 5181
    • win2ksp4 3dmark 2000 - Crash Halfway through Adventure High
    • win98se 3dmark 2001se - 4025
    • win2jsp4 3dmark 2001se - 4224
  • NV FX5200 64MB 128 bit NV34 (GPU 250Mhz, 135Mhz Mem)
    • 3dmark 99max - 6103 CPU 20499, 5380 RasterMarks
    • win98se 3dmark 2000 - 5464 CPU 402
    • win2ksp4 3dmark 2000 - 5475 CPU 415
    • 3dmark 2001se - 4311
    • win2ksp4 3dmark 2001se - 4597
  • NV FX5500 256MB 128 bit NV34 AGP 2x (GPU 270 Mhz, 135Mhz Mem)
    • win98se 3dmark 99 max - 5974 CPU 20639
    • win98se (56.55) via4in1425 3dmark 99 max - 5930 CPU 20688
    • win98se (56.55) via4in1443 3dmark 99 max - 5939 CPU 20766
    • win98se (56.55) viahyporian4in1456 3dmark 99 max - 5872 CPU 20688
    • win98se (56.55) viahyporian+4in1524 3dmark 99 max - 5872 CPU 20688
    • win98se 3dmark 2000 - 5493
    • win2ksp4 3dmark 2000 - Crash Halfway through Adventure High
    • win98se (56.55) via4in1425 3dmark 2000 - 6732
    • win98se (56.55) via4in1443 3dmark 2000 - 6730 CPU 629
    • win2ksp4 (56.55) via4in1443 3dmark 2000 - 6564 CPU 565
    • win98se (56.55) viahyporian4in1456 3dmark 2000 - 5345 CPU 411
    • win98se (56.55) viahyporian+4in1524 3dmark 2000 - 5352 CPU 411
    • win98se (56.55) via4in1443 (recheck after testing hyp) 3dmark 2000 - 6742 CPU 635
    • win98se 3dmark 2001se - 4388
    • win2ksp4 3dmark 2001se - Crash then unable to do Lobby High
    • win98se (56.55) via4in1425 3dmark 2001se - 4909
    • win98se (56.55) via4in1443 3dmark 2001se - 4898
    • win98se (56.55) via4in1443 (recheck) 3dmark 2001se - 4921
    • win2ksp4 (56.55) via4in1443 3dmark 2001se - 5034
    • win98se (56.55) viahyporian+4in1524 3dmark 2001se - 4383
    • win98se (54.04) 3dmark 2001se - 4406
  • RV 5900XT 128MB 256 bit RV35 AGP x4 GIGABYTE GV-N59X128D (GPU 300Mhz, 350Mhz Mem)
    • win2ksp4 (56.55) via4in1443 3dmark 2000 - 8884 CPU 586
    • win2ksp4 (56.55) via4in1443 3dmark 2001se - 8938
    • winxpsp3 (56.55) via4in1443 3dmark 2001se - 8920
  • AMD Radeon 9200 128MB 128 bit RV280 AGP 2x Medion Radeon 9200 (GPU 250Mhz, 200Mhz Mem)
    • 3dmark 99max - 5985 CPU 21142.20 7709 3DRasterMarks
    • win98se 3dmark 2000 - 8176 CPU 651
    • win2ksp4 3dmark 2000 - 7115 CPU 512
    • win2ksp4 3dmark 2001se - 5566
  • AMD Radeon 9550 128MB 128 bit RV350LX AGP 2x ASUS A9550 (GPU 250Mhz, 200Mhz Mem)
    • Lockup on 99max
Last edited by Deano on 2024-01-12, 10:25. Edited 2 times in total.

Game dev since last century

Reply 1 of 13, by chinny22

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Love a Dual CPU rig.
Why the 3 data partitions? one for each OS or something else? Just curious.

I've been running a dual P3 600 for number of years and personally, I find Win2k the best OS for this era.
You'll be surprised how many Win9x games run under Win2k, how much better behaved Win2k is compared to Win98, and it still has that retro feel vs WinXP.
(but keep Win9x for the few games that don't and dos of course)

Also you need a pair of Voodoo 2's. You know what better than a SMP rig? SMP rig with SLI 😀

but its your rig, do as you want, I'm just giving my 2c

Reply 2 of 13, by Deano

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WinXP wouldn't let me format them as FAT32 if the were more than 32GB (and wanted them to all be shared). Win9x wouldn't fdisk a 80GB drive.

Yeah I'd like to give is a pair of Voodoo's 2 (Sadly I don't have the pair 3DFX sent me, though still have the keyring!) but so expensive, will have to wait until few other builds are finished. I got most of the bits pretty cheap, so the pair of voodoo 2 will probably cost 3-4x the rest of the machine 🤣

I've stripped XP down, and have it for its compatibility stuff but will prefer Win2k when it works.

First game is gonna be Diablo, oddly never actually played it though have completed Diablo 3. First was gonna be Realms Of The Haunting but it doesn't like the sound setup, so that will have to wait until my Cyrix MII-300 ISA rig is finished.

Game dev since last century

Reply 4 of 13, by Deano

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Under W98 the second CPU isn't active (in any meaningful way), on NT based OS its used and OS stuff can run on the second CPU even in single threaded games. Normally I see about 5-10% boost over same game in Win98, a bit more when using a Alcohol 120% as a CD emulator.
So its not really a big win, but its cool and in my case I got the motherboard and both CPUs pretty cheap (about 75EU the lot) so might as well use them.

Game dev since last century

Reply 5 of 13, by Joseph_Joestar

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Deano wrote on 2024-01-11, 09:19:

Win98 has WSS in windows, and Yamaha General Midi + real OPL3 under DOS window, SB PRO compat on S220 I5 DMA1 T4
NT based have WSS

I think you mean 16-bit audio here, since Yamaha YMF 7x4 cards dropped WSS support entirely. As for getting a higher quality sound bank, you can install PowerYMF and use the one provided there.

BTW, that's a very interesting build! Feels like a real workstation from back in the day.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 6 of 13, by Deano

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You are correct about the audio, will edit the post.

yeah Its a nice system, its dos compat is a bit rubbish but to be expected with an PCI/AGP only system. Want to try out the scsi soon, see if its noticable faster over IDE.

Game dev since last century

Reply 7 of 13, by H3nrik V!

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chinny22 wrote on 2024-01-11, 22:41:

You know what better than a SMP rig? SMP rig with SLI 😀

This is a signature worthy quote!

Please use the "quote" option if asking questions to what I write - it will really up the chances of me noticing 😀

Reply 8 of 13, by H3nrik V!

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Deano wrote on 2024-01-11, 09:19:
Drive Setup: […]
Show full quote

Drive Setup:

  • 40GB Boot
    ---------
    0: FAT32 13GB WIN98SE
    1: NTFS 13GB WIN2K SP4
    2: NTFS 13GB WINXP SP3
  • 80GB Data
    ---------
    0: FAT32 31.2GB 80_A
    1: FAT32 31.2GB 80_B
    2: FAT32 14.8GB 80_C

Install Order:

  • Win9x
  • Win2k
  • WinXP

Will this setup with 3 different partitions still have the "Select operating system" list at boot? As of now, I have W98, 2K and XP on the same partition, but in different install directories ... It makes a bit of a mess 🤣

Please use the "quote" option if asking questions to what I write - it will really up the chances of me noticing 😀

Reply 9 of 13, by zuldan

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Really interesting post. I was surprised to see most of the 3DMark99 results under 6000 on a 1.4Ghz. All my machines (PIII 850Mhz each) have a score of over 6000. It must come down to the motherboard. Maybe a server based motherboard has less gaming performance?

I’m setting up a dual PIII 1Ghz machine tomorrow with Windows 2000 Server Edition. Just going to use it for a file server and Quake III dedicated console server.

Great to see how other people setup their machines. Thank you for posting!

Reply 10 of 13, by Deano

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H3nrik V! wrote on 2024-01-12, 09:33:

Will this setup with 3 different partitions still have the "Select operating system" list at boot? As of now, I have W98, 2K and XP on the same partition, but in different install directories ... It makes a bit of a mess 🤣

Yep but you must install them in the order, Win98, Win2K, WinXP. Its possible to do other orders and fix up but the easiest way it just to install in that order as each newer os will knows about is older sibling and sets up the boot menu automagically.

I then have on the win98 install, a dos config menu for various pure dos game configs, but tbh not that useful for this machine.

Game dev since last century

Reply 11 of 13, by Deano

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zuldan wrote on 2024-01-12, 10:10:

Really interesting post. I was surprised to see most of the 3DMark99 results under 6000 on a 1.4Ghz. All my machines (PIII 850Mhz each) have a score of over 6000. It must come down to the motherboard. Maybe a server based motherboard has less gaming performance?

I’m setting up a dual PIII 1Ghz machine tomorrow with Windows 2000 Server Edition. Just going to use it for a file server and Quake III dedicated console server.

Great to see how other people setup their machines. Thank you for posting!

Thanks, yeah most of the lower scores are bottom end video cards but still I think you are right, its set pretty conservative. There is also almost no configuration options in the bios except turn off L1 and L2 cache and PCI irq stuff.
On the other hand, its totally rock solid once found the right drivers etc.

Would love to try either a newer bios or try hacking this one with a few options but until I get an adapter for my T48 eeprom burner I'm not risking any BIOS mods.

Game dev since last century

Reply 13 of 13, by H3nrik V!

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Deano wrote on 2024-01-12, 10:17:
H3nrik V! wrote on 2024-01-12, 09:33:

Will this setup with 3 different partitions still have the "Select operating system" list at boot? As of now, I have W98, 2K and XP on the same partition, but in different install directories ... It makes a bit of a mess 🤣

Yep but you must install them in the order, Win98, Win2K, WinXP. Its possible to do other orders and fix up but the easiest way it just to install in that order as each newer os will knows about is older sibling and sets up the boot menu automagically.

I then have on the win98 install, a dos config menu for various pure dos game configs, but tbh not that useful for this machine.

Nice, might want to try that out (Asus P2B-DS currently with dual 500 CuMines - well actually they're 667, but my motherboard has the old clock generator without 133 FSB, and I don't feel like 112 MHz)

I'm aware of the order - I was actually surprised that XP didn't just "overrule" and overwrite 2000 on my own machine ...

Please use the "quote" option if asking questions to what I write - it will really up the chances of me noticing 😀

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