VOGONS


First post, by predator_085

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When helping out cleaning the house from a recently deceased relative I found parts of a retro computer in the basement which I was allowed to keep. It was a case with a Gigabyte GA-5AA mainboard in it. That's it. The board needs lots of cleaning and I am not even sure if is still working.

At some point in the next couple of years, I wanted to build myself a Dos-only rig. In case the Gigabyte GA-5AA is still operational would it be a good foundation for Dos gaming PC.

If so which components would you consider as acceptable for a late Dos machine.

How would Ram should I pick?

Which CPU, GPU and sound card would work well with that kind of mainboard?

Last edited by predator_085 on 2024-04-03, 15:21. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 1 of 16, by dionb

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GA-5AA is a nice board for late DOS.

Most important question is whether you want DOS only (no compromises) or also want to do Win9x (involves compromises)

If DOS only, accelerated features of hardware is generally not used, and compatibility is key.

My recommendations in that case:
- as fast a CPU as you can find, K6-2+ or K6-3+ are best, but K6-2 or K6-3 will be fine too.
- 16MB PC-100 SDRAM (the smallest DIMM you can find) - no DOS game needs more than this, and larger amounts of RAM can actually cause memory detection issues ("not enough memory" even though you have tens of MB to spare)
- S3 Virge GX(2) AGP card (cheap, extremely VESA compatible, good raw framebuffer performance). As always, cheap crappy S3 cards can have bad image quality, but something like a Diamond Stealth 3D 4000 would be great.
- sound cards are a huge rabbit hole, before looking for specific types, clarify what it is you are looking for. Do you want the same (probably objectively crappy) experience you had in the 1990s? Do you want 'wavetable' MIDI music? (and if so, 'period correct quality' or as good as can be bought?) Do you have a fetish for certain brands (Gravis? Creative? Audiotrix?) And how much money are you willing to spend? If you don't have a clue and want something cheap and easy, go for anything with an Aztech AZT2320 chip on it. It will give you near perfect SBPro2 compatibility, a real integrated Yamaha OPL3 and a bug-free MPU-401 MIDI interface you can use for wavetable stuff if desired. They also tend not to be very noisy. In any event you want an ISA card with hardware Soundblaster (Pro2) compatibility.

Now, if you also want to run Windows 9x, that can be done, but you need to compromise, as then accelerated functions become relevant.
- CPU same as above. Bear in mind that even the fastest K6-3+ will be slow for Windows 98 games (by the time Windows 98 was supplanted by Windows XP, it was Athlon/P4 era)
- At least 64MB of RAM. It's possible to limit the amount of RAM for DOS in CONFIG.SYS. Do so down to 16MB. Over 64MB, things get complicated and what is best depends on the revision of the Aladdin V chipset on your motherboard. If it's G-revision, you can add as much RAM as you want up to 512MB. If it's E-revision or earlier, only 64MB is cacheable by L2 cache and you're best off installing 64MB only, unless you have a K6-3, 2+ or 3+ with its own L2 cache on-chip. Then you can ignore that 64MB limit.
- in Windows, it's the graphics card that's the rabbit hole. Voodoo cards are great (and support good VESA for DOS too), but cost an arm and a leg. If a Voodoo3 is too expensive, look to nVidia, eg a TNT2, for good performance and still good DOS compatibility. Caveat here is that the ALi ALaddin V chipset was notorious for compatibility issues with nVidia cards. Most were fixed by combination of BIOS and drivers. Be sure to upgrade BIOS to latest version before you start, install ALi chipset drivers (AGP miniport!) before installing nVidia drivers, and be prepared to play with multiple driver versions before you get something stable. Note that you want as old nVidia drivers as possible (i.e. that support your chosen chip), as the overhead of later drivers is huge and this is a slow system. I would not recommend any GPU on this board as the AGP slot and VRMs probably can't deliver enough power for a big hot chip with T&L like the GeForce series.
- for unaccelerated Win9x stuff, the same ISA card as for DOS should be usable, particularly if the card supports WSS (as the AZT2320 does). For more interesting stuff, several chips have software wavetable synths in their drivers, such as the Yamaha YMF74x series. Also Aureal-based cards and Soundblaster Live cards offer positional audio, although I doubt a K6-2 will have enough oomph to run games that support that particularly well. One thing to remember is that you can have multiple sound cards in the same system, so it's perfectly acceptable to have an ISA card for DOS and a PCI card for Windows, for example. That reduces the compromises you need.

Reply 2 of 16, by predator_085

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Thanks a lot for your reply @dionb. The info are very helpful.

Let me answer your questions now.

The sound card question is a rabbit hole indeed. I do not have any preference for a special brand. If possible I want to have a sound card that gives a very good Dos gaming experience without breaking the bank. But like I said not sure if this is possible in the first place. It also depends on if I want a Dos only sound card or a Sound card that is good for Win98Se too.

the rig is going to be used mainly for lat Dos gaming but I might also want to use Win98SE on it .

The Win 98Se is only for academic purposes

I already have a good Win 98SE only machine.

Asus CUV4X-CME
P3 800 mhz
256mb ram
Voodoo 3 3000 agp
Creative Audigy sound card.

but playing around with some early win 98Se games to check out the differences between the Socket 7 and the Socket 370 could be fun.

Finding another graphic card for the multiple OS system is also a rabbit hole as you said. While I love my Voodoo 3 I do not think getting any V3 card i feasible. I was already lucky to find my current Voodoo 3 at a price that was a bit lower than normal.

The TNT 2Card you have mentioned would be the more economical solution. if should decide to take this path.

Last edited by predator_085 on 2024-04-03, 11:02. Edited 2 times in total.

Reply 3 of 16, by Trashbytes

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dionb wrote on 2024-04-03, 10:22:
GA-5AA is a nice board for late DOS. […]
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GA-5AA is a nice board for late DOS.

Most important question is whether you want DOS only (no compromises) or also want to do Win9x (involves compromises)

If DOS only, accelerated features of hardware is generally not used, and compatibility is key.

My recommendations in that case:
- as fast a CPU as you can find, K6-2+ or K6-3+ are best, but K6-2 or K6-3 will be fine too.
- 16MB PC-100 SDRAM (the smallest DIMM you can find) - no DOS game needs more than this, and larger amounts of RAM can actually cause memory detection issues ("not enough memory" even though you have tens of MB to spare)
- S3 Virge GX(2) AGP card (cheap, extremely VESA compatible, good raw framebuffer performance). As always, cheap crappy S3 cards can have bad image quality, but something like a Diamond Stealth 3D 4000 would be great.
- sound cards are a huge rabbit hole, before looking for specific types, clarify what it is you are looking for. Do you want the same (probably objectively crappy) experience you had in the 1990s? Do you want 'wavetable' MIDI music? (and if so, 'period correct quality' or as good as can be bought?) Do you have a fetish for certain brands (Gravis? Creative? Audiotrix?) And how much money are you willing to spend? If you don't have a clue and want something cheap and easy, go for anything with an Aztech AZT2320 chip on it. It will give you near perfect SBPro2 compatibility, a real integrated Yamaha OPL3 and a bug-free MPU-401 MIDI interface you can use for wavetable stuff if desired. They also tend not to be very noisy. In any event you want an ISA card with hardware Soundblaster (Pro2) compatibility.

Now, if you also want to run Windows 9x, that can be done, but you need to compromise, as then accelerated functions become relevant.
- CPU same as above. Bear in mind that even the fastest K6-3+ will be slow for Windows 98 games (by the time Windows 98 was supplanted by Windows XP, it was Athlon/P4 era)
- At least 64MB of RAM. It's possible to limit the amount of RAM for DOS in CONFIG.SYS. Do so down to 16MB. Over 64MB, things get complicated and what is best depends on the revision of the Aladdin V chipset on your motherboard. If it's G-revision, you can add as much RAM as you want up to 512MB. If it's E-revision or earlier, only 64MB is cacheable by L2 cache and you're best off installing 64MB only, unless you have a K6-3, 2+ or 3+ with its own L2 cache on-chip. Then you can ignore that 64MB limit.
- in Windows, it's the graphics card that's the rabbit hole. Voodoo cards are great (and support good VESA for DOS too), but cost an arm and a leg. If a Voodoo3 is too expensive, look to nVidia, eg a TNT2, for good performance and still good DOS compatibility. Caveat here is that the ALi ALaddin V chipset was notorious for compatibility issues with nVidia cards. Most were fixed by combination of BIOS and drivers. Be sure to upgrade BIOS to latest version before you start, install ALi chipset drivers (AGP miniport!) before installing nVidia drivers, and be prepared to play with multiple driver versions before you get something stable. Note that you want as old nVidia drivers as possible (i.e. that support your chosen chip), as the overhead of later drivers is huge and this is a slow system. I would not recommend any GPU on this board as the AGP slot and VRMs probably can't deliver enough power for a big hot chip with T&L like the GeForce series.
- for unaccelerated Win9x stuff, the same ISA card as for DOS should be usable, particularly if the card supports WSS (as the AZT2320 does). For more interesting stuff, several chips have software wavetable synths in their drivers, such as the Yamaha YMF74x series. Also Aureal-based cards and Soundblaster Live cards offer positional audio, although I doubt a K6-2 will have enough oomph to run games that support that particularly well. One thing to remember is that you can have multiple sound cards in the same system, so it's perfectly acceptable to have an ISA card for DOS and a PCI card for Windows, for example. That reduces the compromises you need.

Good thing about a K6 and this board is you can disable both L1 and L2 cache along with using setmul .. you can essentially turn a K6 into a 386 if you want which makes it a great board and CPU for a DOS rig that can handle a wide range of DOS gaming.

Reply 4 of 16, by Ydee

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dionb wrote on 2024-04-03, 10:22:

Caveat here is that the ALi ALaddin V chipset was notorious for compatibility issues with nVidia cards. Most were fixed by combination of BIOS and drivers. Be sure to upgrade BIOS to latest version before you start, install ALi chipset drivers (AGP miniport!) before installing nVidia drivers, and be prepared to play with multiple driver versions before you get something stable.

For me, stable working GF2MX and TNT2 M64 on GA-5AA was thanks to Aladin V tweak:

REGEDIT4

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\ALi\ALi AGP Driver]
"AGPDataRate"="1"
"ForceSBADisable"="0"
"ForceAGPEnable"="1"
"FrameBufferSize"="C"
"FrameBufferDisable"="0"
"GATMode"="0"
"K6SetEWBEC"="2"
"UseUCForWC"="0"
"GTLBAlwaysFetch"="0"
"ResetAGPCommand"="0"
"MaxPCIRetryCounter"="0"
"AGPTiming"="0"
"PCIMode"="0"
"ForceAssertRequest"="0"
"DisablePCIReadPrefetch"="0"
"AGPDelayClock"=hex:10
"SDRAMDelayClock"=hex:10
"K6WriteAllocate"="2"
"PADInputLevel"="1"

Reply 5 of 16, by predator_085

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@Trashbytes and Ydee Thx for the further information about the bios and the the pontial off downclocking the K6. That might really come in handy.

I have already checked some prices of the k6 2 and 3. And the normal ones are a bit cheaper than the + variants. In case I find one of the + variants at a good price I will pull the trigger.

At first I need to clean the mobo and it see if there is still life in it. I am doing that on the weekend and then I will plan further.

Reply 6 of 16, by CoffeeOne

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dionb wrote on 2024-04-03, 10:22:

..... If it's G-revision, you can add as much RAM as you want up to 512MB. If it's E-revision or earlier, only 64MB is cacheable by L2 cache and you're best off installing 64MB only, unless you have a K6-3, 2+ or 3+ with its own L2 cache on-chip. Then you can ignore that 64MB limit.
.......

Nope. 128MB is cacheable with E-revision or earlier.

Reply 7 of 16, by dionb

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CoffeeOne wrote on 2024-04-03, 19:22:
dionb wrote on 2024-04-03, 10:22:

..... If it's G-revision, you can add as much RAM as you want up to 512MB. If it's E-revision or earlier, only 64MB is cacheable by L2 cache and you're best off installing 64MB only, unless you have a K6-3, 2+ or 3+ with its own L2 cache on-chip. Then you can ignore that 64MB limit.
.......

Nope. 128MB is cacheable with E-revision or earlier.

Only if you set it to WT, which hurts performance too.

Reply 8 of 16, by predator_085

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Thanks for the further info about the ram. I found a used hardware store that is doing some maintenance even for ancient stuff. I will go there later in the afternoon to let the mobo be checked. If is still working I will plan further.

After thinking about it again I will go for Dos/early Win98 System.

I think i will get
AMD-K6-2/500AFX as cpu
Ram 64 mb
for the Win 98 Se graphics card i will go for Riva TNT 2

Sound card choise for the Dos and Win 98 se is still pending. But I am considering getting 2 sound cards. One for DOS and 1 for Windows.

What do you guys think about my preliminary plan?

Am I on the right track or would you change some of my considerations?

Reply 9 of 16, by dionb

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Well, if I were picking nits I'd suggest going for 64MB, not 64mb 😉

Apart from that, this looks fine. K6Plus would give you more options to downclock as Trashbytes said, but if you're only interested in late DOS, a K6-2 gives more than enough options.

For TNT2 the same applies as for S3 Virge: there are a lot of cheap crap cards out there which offer very poor analog quality. That's particularly relevant at the higher resolutions of a Windows desktop. Be sure to go for a good brand card, such as Diamond, STB, Asus or similar. Note that the TNT2-M64 is a cut-down version with a lot less performance and a lot higher chance of bad quality. So avoid M64 cards.

As for sound cards, you could turn it around and post what you can easily get for an acceptable price and let us suggest which of those would be best. There's no point in us giving you very specific suggestions if you can't find the cards (or only on auction sites for excessive prices).

Reply 10 of 16, by Kouwes

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I just finished a new Win98 build with also a K6-2 500 CPU. Runs very well, I had to use a PCI video card because the board has no AGP slot.
- Soltek SL55-F5, nice ATX SS7 board
- 256MB
- 40GB HDD
- Voodoo 3 2000 PCI
- Aztech MMPCI 338-A3D sound card
It’s not for DOS, I have enough pure-DOS machines so I‘m not bothering with a Win98/DOS build.
I did upgrade the CPU a while ago from a K6-2 400, but there‘s no noticeable improvement. Of course there will be in benchmarks but I rarely make use of those.

Reply 11 of 16, by predator_085

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dionb wrote on 2024-04-04, 09:31:
Well, if I were picking nits I'd suggest going for 64MB, not 64mb ;) […]
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Well, if I were picking nits I'd suggest going for 64MB, not 64mb 😉

Apart from that, this looks fine. K6Plus would give you more options to downclock as Trashbytes said, but if you're only interested in late DOS, a K6-2 gives more than enough options.

For TNT2 the same applies as for S3 Virge: there are a lot of cheap crap cards out there which offer very poor analog quality. That's particularly relevant at the higher resolutions of a Windows desktop. Be sure to go for a good brand card, such as Diamond, STB, Asus or similar. Note that the TNT2-M64 is a cut-down version with a lot less performance and a lot higher chance of bad quality. So avoid M64 cards.

As for sound cards, you could turn it around and post what you can easily get for an acceptable price and let us suggest which of those would be best. There's no point in us giving you very specific suggestions if you can't find the cards (or only on auction sites for excessive prices).

Thanks for the correction and further info about the different TNT 2 cards. I will stay away from the M64 for sure and look for TNT 2 card from a known manufacturer.

About the sound card. For DOS gaming the soundblaster AW32 or AW 64 is quite commonly available at a price I am still willing to pay.

Some Yamaha cards are also in the wild at the moment but they are on the really expensive side.

On the PCI side of things, the Soundblaster live cards would be available at a good price. I have also seen a Aureal Vortex card at a good price. But as you have already mentioned the aureal vortex might be too much for my planned cpu.It is also doubtful that the early win98SE games that would run on such a system even support 3d audio. Maybe it is the best thing to stay away from such "futuristic" stuff.

Reply 12 of 16, by Kouwes

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Why would a Vortex be „too much“ for your CPU? I‘m running one, ran fine even with a 400 CPU. And there sure are A3D games for Win98, try Half Life for example.
On the other hand, for DOS you might want an ISA card.

Reply 13 of 16, by dionb

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predator_085 wrote on 2024-04-04, 12:54:
[...] […]
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[...]

Thanks for the correction and further info about the different TNT 2 cards. I will stay away from the M64 for sure and look for TNT 2 card from a known manufacturer.

About the sound card. For DOS gaming the soundblaster AW32 or AW 64 is quite commonly available at a price I am still willing to pay.

Some Yamaha cards are also in the wild at the moment but they are on the really expensive side.

AWE32/64 cheaper than Yamaha? That's odd. Usually YMF719 cards are pretty low-end.

Once again, sound cards are very subjective, but I find Creative cards massively overrated and the whole SB16 range (up to AWE64) is moderately to very buggy. How bad it is depends on which games you play and how much the bugs annoy you. The AWE/Emu8k MIDI is decent but not great either.

This link indicates per model (CTxxxx number) what features/bugs the Creative cards have
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1o0_u- … #gid=1663779470

In general if you can get an AWE64 (or better: CT3670) cheaply, it's decent enough although I'd still pair it with a bug-free SBPro2-compatible card with Aztech or OPTi chip for OPL3 FM synth and good MIDI.

Check the exact CTxxxx model because as you can see behind the link, "AWE32" or "AWE64" could mean a very wide range of cards, some of which are a lot better than others.

On the PCI side of things, the Soundblaster live cards would be available at a good price. I have also seen a Aureal Vortex card at a good price. But as you have already mentioned the aureal vortex might be too much for my planned cpu.It is also doubtful that the early win98SE games that would run on such a system even support 3d audio. Maybe it is the best thing to stay away from such "futuristic" stuff.

Opinions vary. If you're happy with period correct frame rates (well below 30 fps), you can use positional audio, but if you want smooth play on a K6-2, I'm pessimistic about it.

Reply 14 of 16, by predator_085

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dionb wrote on 2024-04-04, 13:51:
predator_085 wrote on 2024-04-04, 12:54:
[...] […]
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[...]

Thanks for the correction and further info about the different TNT 2 cards. I will stay away from the M64 for sure and look for TNT 2 card from a known manufacturer.

About the sound card. For DOS gaming the soundblaster AW32 or AW 64 is quite commonly available at a price I am still willing to pay.

Some Yamaha cards are also in the wild at the moment but they are on the really expensive side.

AWE32/64 cheaper than Yamaha? That's odd. Usually YMF719 cards are pretty low-end.

Once again, sound cards are very subjective, but I find Creative cards massively overrated and the whole SB16 range (up to AWE64) is moderately to very buggy. How bad it is depends on which games you play and how much the bugs annoy you. The AWE/Emu8k MIDI is decent but not great either.

Thx again for the further information. You are right. The Aw 32/64 was cheaper than the Yamaha was a strange anomaly On Ebay the YMF719 seems to be cheaper indeed.

So did I get you right that it would be better to pick the Yamaha YMF719 over the Soundblaster if possible?

About the positional 3d. I think I prefer a smooth game over the positional Audio.

If I want to experience decent 3d audio I can use my Voodoo 3 System which has an Audigy Card.

Reply 15 of 16, by dionb

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predator_085 wrote on 2024-04-04, 14:59:

[...]

Thx again for the further information. You are right. The Aw 32/64 was cheaper than the Yamaha was a strange anomaly On Ebay the YMF719 seems to be cheaper indeed.

So did I get you right that it would be better to pick the Yamaha YMF719 over the Soundblaster if possible?

Depends on what you want/need:

- SBPro2: all support it
- SB16: only AWE32/64 support it
- WSS (for Windows): only YMF719 supports it
- real OPL3: YMF719 definitely has it, AWE64 definitely doesn't, AWE32 depends on model.
- bug-free MPU-401 for MIDI: YMF719 definitely has it, AWE32 definitely doesn't, AWE64 has slowdowns if using high-quality audio at same time as MPU-401 (Duke Nukem3D, X-Wing)
- onboard wavetable: AWE32 and 64 have it (Emu8k), YMF719 doesn't under DOS, would need a wavetable module.

Also, eBay is rarely cheap, depending on where you live a local marketplace site might be better (in DE that's eBay Kleinanzeigen, which is very different from regular eBay).

Reply 16 of 16, by predator_085

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dionb wrote on 2024-04-04, 15:31:
Depends on what you want/need: […]
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predator_085 wrote on 2024-04-04, 14:59:

[...]

Thx again for the further information. You are right. The Aw 32/64 was cheaper than the Yamaha was a strange anomaly On Ebay the YMF719 seems to be cheaper indeed.

So did I get you right that it would be better to pick the Yamaha YMF719 over the Soundblaster if possible?

Depends on what you want/need:

- SBPro2: all support it
- SB16: only AWE32/64 support it
- WSS (for Windows): only YMF719 supports it
- real OPL3: YMF719 definitely has it, AWE64 definitely doesn't, AWE32 depends on model.
- bug-free MPU-401 for MIDI: YMF719 definitely has it, AWE32 definitely doesn't, AWE64 has slowdowns if using high-quality audio at same time as MPU-401 (Duke Nukem3D, X-Wing)
- onboard wavetable: AWE32 and 64 have it (Emu8k), YMF719 doesn't under DOS, would need a wavetable module.

Also, eBay is rarely cheap, depending on where you live a local marketplace site might be better (in DE that's eBay Kleinanzeigen, which is very different from regular eBay).

Thanks for the info. Then I will look deeper into the games I want to play and then research if there are any cards that would not run that great with certain cards.

@all Good news from the repair shop. They think the board is salvageable which means that the DOS project will become a reality eventually.