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Is the Pentium 4 underrated for retro computing?

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Reply 40 of 233, by pixel_workbench

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Shponglefan wrote on 2024-05-05, 12:50:
pixel_workbench wrote on 2024-05-05, 06:33:

It's just that anything a P4 can do, the Athlon64 can do better, and likely use less power, and have better heatsink retention and selection. (aside from SATA quirks on Via chipsets).

Are there any Athlon64 boards with ISA slots?

I haven't seen any, but the Via chipsets have better DOS compatibility with PCI sound cards than Intel chipsets. The P4 boards with ISA slots are all rare and/or expensive from what I've seen.

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Reply 41 of 233, by chrismeyer6

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Isn't there P4 boards with the SB Link connector for better DOS compatibility?

Reply 42 of 233, by pixel_workbench

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melbar wrote on 2024-05-05, 11:19:

Well, you'll need specify the usecase and then say which cpu is better.

Yes, I am referring primarily to games. That's the main reason I would build a retro rig.

For the actual CPU models, Iet's say a mid range P4 vs midrange A64. Or high end P4 vs high end A64. Obviously not the slowest A64 vs fastest P4.

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Reply 43 of 233, by Shponglefan

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chrismeyer6 wrote on 2024-05-05, 15:11:

Isn't there P4 boards with the SB Link connector for better DOS compatibility?

According to Retroweb, there are a bunch of socket 478 boards with SBLink. Most of them seem to be QDI motherboards.

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Reply 44 of 233, by chrismeyer6

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If that's the case then DOS compatibility should be pretty good.

Reply 45 of 233, by melbar

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I cannot confirm here a 100% compatibility.

With my QDI PlatiniX 2D, i have found some issues with the ESS Solo-1 conneted to the SB-link connector.
I was successful in running FM music and sound FX (examples: DOOM and TES arena) in DOS, but there is an issue with MPU-401 general midi, which is not working in SB-link mode.
This seems a general problem with intel chipsets from that era.

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Reply 46 of 233, by PlaneVuki

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I don't consider p4 as retro.
(Can list 10 reasons for this)

But I still like socket 478 northwood.

Have built one for myself. I like it because of the special mobo which has a retro feel and characteristics to it.

Reply 47 of 233, by Shagittarius

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Personally I think anything older than 64bit as far as CPUs go is retro.

Reply 48 of 233, by SPBHM

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P4 came out in 2000 when I was 12, it is retro for me,
it's no longer useful for modern applications (specially the earlier ones)
it has boards with RDRAM, SDRAM, AGP, ISA, AC97 audio, long obsolete standards and so on

p4s make very fast windows 98 PCs, good dos machines, they are a bit slow on a lot of XP games.

Reply 49 of 233, by pixel_workbench

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I personally don't care that a certain P4 can barely run Windows 10 and slowly crawl on the modern web. It's more interesting in a retro build, where I can run Win98 and DOS, without jumping through a bunch of hoops and resorting to various hacks.

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Reply 50 of 233, by agent_x007

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theelf wrote on 2024-05-05, 11:17:

Is not retro or not related, but there is a big difference, in a P4 775 you can install windows 10 for example, and modern web browser, or install XP and use modern web browser. Im talking about web browsing because are so important now to every day work

In a 80s computer not only was impossible to use any OS from 2004, but same, was impossible to use any software from 2004 in a 80s OS, like DOS

1) Newest OS from Windows 11, which is incompatible with P4s (but you MIGHT make it work with 65nm ones).

2) From oldest P4s on 775, only those with "J" in name support Windows 8/10 in any capacity (due to NX-bit/XD-bit requirement). So ALL D0 steppings aren't compatible, and same goes for E0 and later P4s that have X D-bit locked from factory.
Regardless, just because you can/can't run it doesn't mean it's "fine" from MY retro perspective (which is 100% subjective, and I mentioned this previously).
Not to mention you have to go through quite few things to make it for usual people.
If you ware die hardcore fan of Netburst be my guest use it. However I don't plan to (and majority of people also won't use it).

Last edited by agent_x007 on 2024-05-05, 18:30. Edited 3 times in total.

Reply 51 of 233, by Ensign Nemo

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What is or isn't considered retro or vintage is going to highly subjective and people will always disagree about it. Personally, I need something to have a "coolness" factor that is even more subjective. It has to give me the feeling that I'm using something really special. My subjective criteria includes whether or not the experience feels different enough in comparison to a modern computer. A Pentium 4 running XP wouldn't meet this criterion for me, but DOS/Win98 would come closer. Personally, just being old isn't enough for me. It needs something else to draw me in. As an analogy, I don't think that vintage car enthusiasts would be particularly interested in a 1985 Ford Escort. Yes, that car is 40 years old, but I doubt that it would be particularly interesting to collectors.

Reply 52 of 233, by Repo Man11

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I latched on to AMD soon after getting my first computer in 2000 because they were what I could afford, so now that they are cheap (or even free) it's been fun exploring what the "Other side" were using back when I was an AMD only guy.

Last edited by Repo Man11 on 2024-05-05, 19:58. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 53 of 233, by theelf

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agent_x007 wrote on 2024-05-05, 18:18:
1) Newest OS from Windows 11, which is incompatible with P4s (but you MIGHT make it work with 65nm ones). […]
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theelf wrote on 2024-05-05, 11:17:

Is not retro or not related, but there is a big difference, in a P4 775 you can install windows 10 for example, and modern web browser, or install XP and use modern web browser. Im talking about web browsing because are so important now to every day work

In a 80s computer not only was impossible to use any OS from 2004, but same, was impossible to use any software from 2004 in a 80s OS, like DOS

1) Newest OS from Windows 11, which is incompatible with P4s (but you MIGHT make it work with 65nm ones).

2) From oldest P4s on 775, only those with "J" in name support Windows 8/10 in any capacity (due to NX-bit/XD-bit requirement). So ALL D0 steppings aren't compatible, and same goes for E0 and later P4s that have X D-bit locked from factory.
Regardless, just because you can/can't run it doesn't mean it's "fine" from MY retro perspective (which is 100% subjective, and I mentioned this previously).
Not to mention you have to go through quite few things to make it for usual people.
If you ware die hardcore fan of Netburst be my guest use it. However I don't plan to (and majority of people also won't use it).

Yup, windows 11 works fine on latest P4, i tested my self

About P4, my main computer, and the one im writing right now, is a xeon 771 converted to 775, 8GB ram, SSD, etc and windows XP SP3. Because i wanted to test supermium (chromium fork) more in depth to report in github problems etc i switch the xeon to a pentium 4 for one week, and did my regular work

I found surprising nice experience, normally my work is office stuff, web surfing my hobby websites, and connect to goberment stuff websites for taxes etc, youtube for background music and watch movies and tv series, and programming in cygwin, mingw and visual studio

No problems at all with all my task, and get surprise supermium let me do my regular work fine, of course not so fast like the xeon but OK, for example, i change youtube from 1080/720 to 360 to free some CPU in background, but most of time was a nice experience

Im not a fan of P4 arquitecture at all, but i use P4 until 2018 then i have some nice feelings for this CPU, but in my opinion are bad performers and im happy i dont use anymre jaja

Reply 54 of 233, by SPBHM

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apparently the new update yet to be released for win11 will require SSE4.2 so nothing older than Nehalem will work

Reply 55 of 233, by VivienM

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SPBHM wrote on 2024-05-05, 20:28:

apparently the new update yet to be released for win11 will require SSE4.2 so nothing older than Nehalem will work

I thought the currently shipping versions of Windows 11 required instructions found only in the 45nm C2Ds and newer... (but I don't have any machines to test this on...)

Reply 56 of 233, by fosterwj03

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I’m a bit torn over the P4 platform. I don’t think it deserves the hate, but I also don’t think it’s that great. I almost completely avoided the P4 generation back in the day. I got impatient waiting for the Core 2 Duo, so I bought a cheap Cedar Mill Celeron to pair with a 945P motherboard to later host a Conroe CPU. I ended up replacing both about a year later with a Wolfdale CPU and P45 motherboard. It didn't wow me at the time, but it did seem adequate for then-modern computing.

The P4 was clearly designed to operate at huge clock frequencies (5GHz +) due to the extremely long pipelines in the Netburst architecture. Unfortunately, its design arrived way ahead of its time. Intel’s manufacturing processes over that 6-year period just couldn’t handle that level of performance. The P4 ran too hot and at very high (for the time) power levels, and the branch misprediction rate at low speeds hurt overall performance.

These days, I find both issues quite quaint. Unless you plan to build a SFF system today, nobody seems to bat an eye at CPUs that dissipates 100W+ of power in Turbo mode (some over 200W) and tolerate nearly 100 degrees C during nominal operation now. Intel has also slowly extended the pipelines of modern performance cores to the same length as the Northwood cores, but they improved their branch prediction algorithms dramatically over time. Now that performance cores can operate at 5GHz+, nobody seems to care about either issue.

I actually think that P4s are decent processors in retrospect. My issue is that, outside of a few edge cases that I’ll cover below, they don’t represent the best of breed.

If you want a retro rocket for Win9x, you have plenty of choices that exceed the P4 in raw performance with both AGP and PCIE graphics support. If you want PCI graphics (say a Voodoo card), you also have plenty of better options than the P4. The same goes for Windows 2000, XP, Vista, 7, 10, and 11.

As for DOS, speed kills. Yes, you can slow a modern CPU (such as the P4) down, but you might feel better served with an older platform (386, 486, Pentium, etc.) than a P4. I can’t think of any DOS applications that truly benefit from the raw performance of a P4 that you couldn’t meet with a Pentium MMX 233MHz. I still have issues getting a P4 slow enough for some games even with CPUSPD. And if I want a superfast DOS machine, my Haswell i7 and Yamaha YMF744 can handle both quite well (amongst other fully DOS-compatible systems in my collection).

I do own a P4 system that I use as a retro rocket. In my case, I have a Pentium D 945 (2 core, 2 thread, 3.4GHz) on a DFI/Itox G7S620 to provide nearly the fastest platform possible with functional ISA slots for operating systems that require ISA peripherals to provide sound (Windows 3.0 MME, OS/2 2.x, NT 3.1, and early versions of x86 Solaris). I doubt many people would drop several hundred US Dollars for such a build, but I would. At the same time, I have other builds for different OS’s, and I would not have used a P4 for any of them.

All that said, the later socket 775 P4s on a motherboard with ISA slots do represent a kind of one size fits all system that can effectively handle every x86 and x64 OS from DOS 1.0 to Windows 10 x64 (and likely Windows 11 with mods). I just don't think the P4 platform would be the best for most of them.

Reply 57 of 233, by Shponglefan

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leileilol wrote on 2024-05-05, 02:12:

A p4's great for a PCX2 😀

That's in intriguing idea. Hadn't thought about trying a PowerVR card in a P4.

I'm now thinking my next build might be a quad-GPU setup... 😁

Pentium 4 Multi-OS Build
486 DX4-100 with 6 sound cards
486 DX-33 with 5 sound cards

Reply 58 of 233, by Shponglefan

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fosterwj03 wrote on 2024-05-06, 00:20:

I can’t think of any DOS applications that truly benefit from the raw performance of a P4 that you couldn’t meet with a Pentium MMX 233MHz.

Build engine games and Quake in software mode at higher resolutions do benefit. That was one of the driving reasons I built my own P4 system was to see how far I could push those games while retaining ISA slots for ISA sound cards.

I still have issues getting a P4 slow enough for some games even with CPUSPD.

How slow are you trying to throttle? I've been able to get my system to speeds that mimic my 12 Mhz 286 by disabling both caches, setting multiplier to 12x and setting either throttle (ACPI) or ODCM to "2".

In my case, I have a Pentium D 945 (2 core, 2 thread, 3.4GHz) on a DFI/Itox G7S620

Out of curiosity, how many multiplier options does the 945 offer? I've been thinking about experimenting with the Pentium D line to see how it compares to the P4.

Pentium 4 Multi-OS Build
486 DX4-100 with 6 sound cards
486 DX-33 with 5 sound cards