Or let me pose the question a simpler way:

Will my AWE32/64 give me sufficiently better MIDI quality than my SB16, to that somewhat compared to what DOSBox running GM would give in Windows?

Thanks!

Seeing as you have the cards, why not compare them yourself? That way you can decide for yourself and won't end up slave to someone else's aesthetics or pedantry.

AWE32 and 64 have some very shoddy MIDI unless you can load a soundfont (which is impossible in DOS AFAIK).

I've switched back to FM a few times when I've been stuck with an AWE. They are also not any better on the noisy output front than SB16. Oh, and the wavetable headers that some of them have are usually not usable with Roland DBs cuz of stuck notes and wrong notes.

swaaye wrote:

... the wavetable headers that some of them have are usually not usable with Roland DBs cuz of stuck notes and wrong notes.

I think most Creative 16-bit soundblasters with wavetable headers have this "hanging / stuck" midi notes problem with all makes of wavetable daughterboards.

The only SB16 that I've used that works with my Roland SCD15 is an original revision card. I don't know if any AWE32 cards would work.

C'mon guys, the AWE64 isn't that bad... 🙄

First, it's based on the Vibra16 chip, which sounds significantly better than the old SB16 chipset and has a better S/N ratio as well.

Second, the DSP is v4.16, which doesn't have the hanging notes bug. There is no wavetable connector, but you can use external devices, which are both cheaper and easier to obtain than wavetable daughterboards.

The General MIDI/MT32 emulation for DOS games leaves a lot to be desired, but games that support the AWE directly don't sound too bad.

Farfolomew wrote:

Will my AWE32/64 give me sufficiently better MIDI quality than my SB16, to that somewhat compared to what DOSBox running GM would give in Windows?

For a fairly complete comparison of pre-Adlib FM, FM Synthesis, General MIDI, Gravis Ultrasound and SoundBlaster AWE32/64 please see this message on the QuestStudios Roland SoundCanvas/Yamaha XG forum. There are 18 OGG or AVI files present which use the SYSTEM SHOCK MIDI introduction theme as a test case for how different sound cards and hardware/software synths handle the task...

Hope this helps,

dvwjr

dvwjr wrote:

For a fairly complete comparison of pre-Adlib FM, FM Synthesis, General MIDI, Gravis Ultrasound and SoundBlaster AWE32/64 please see this message on the QuestStudios Roland SoundCanvas/Yamaha XG forum.

Hi dvwjr! I was just considering linking to those samples for comparison. 😉

A note about the SoundBlaster AWE64 Gold version sample: This one was recorded using a Miles AIL2 driver normally not used by the game. With standard settings, an AWE64 sounds exactly like the SoundBlaster AWE32 PnP version sample.

Hi there 5u3!

Well you should reference those SYSTEM SHOCK MIDI examples, since around half of the audio samples are yours! 😀 The samples seem to help answer this question which always comes up - which soundcard MIDI/FM implementation is "best"? 😁

The AWE64 Gold is not that bad for a single card solution. I am fixing my young nephew's Win98SE based legacy gaming PC, based on a 1.4GHz tualatin Celeron SL6C6 processor in the PowerLeap adapter on an Intel 440BX board from AOpen. The AWE64 is in there since I am getting him an MT-32, so a good game/MIDI port is necessary for a single card solution. I don't feel like waiting on eBay to find a Roland ISA card for the MT-32/future SC-55MkII.

I updated the older nVidia GeForce 4 to a nVidia AGP 5950U, which is the latest AGP card which can be put in the Intel 440BX board. It seems fairly good in Win98SE and its DOS. Supports the older DOS games and Windows games up to 2005/2006.

Have to do some benchmarks before I give it back. 😁

dvwjr

Farfolomew wrote:

So anyways, can someone tell me the cheapest and easiest solution to an ISA sound card in pure DOS? I don't mind purchasing a midi daughterboard if it will help that much, but I don't want to be spending more than a few dollars on these either!

For the cheapest,easiest solution, your AWE64 is enough already.

And further more, if you don't want to spend more on a daughterboard, fine. Daughterboards are not cheap anyway.

If you're like me, a not so audiophile, AWE64 is just good enough. It is supposedly less noisier than the AWE32, but I can't compare this since I'm using my AWE32's digital output using the S/PDIF connector.

When it comes to upgradability, AWE32 is much better than AWE64.

AWE64 pales in comparison only when you start to compare with a dedicated MIDI board or a MIDI module, like the SC-55.

The biggest issue with AWE cards is that damn AWEUTIL TSR that is not super stable and takes up a lot of RAM and isn't compatible with protected mode games. For protected mode games they must support AWE directly or you get no GMIDI. Luckily most of these games do or were patched for it. And then there's the downside of the built-in wavetable ROM being rather awful for most games. 😀

But the AWE's SB16 digital audio works as well as any SB16 card. AWE64 Gold is the best of the bunch for signal quality. It also has 4MB RAM, but it's tricky to use it for anything because you have to load the soundfont in Windows and play the game in Windows too (thru a dos box).

Even with all of these downsides though, the AWE series works quite well for games. It's just too bad that Creative didn't care more about their MIDI set quality and their signal quality. The cards were sooo overpriced back in their time.

Wow, thanks for all the replies. I was half expected to get slammed for posting such an obvious common question (at times, I'm a bit lazy to search 😜).

Anyways, I'm glad you mentioned the Awe64 was recorded using a different driver, because its recording sounded COMPLETELY different than any of the others, haha.

To me, the best sounding files were under the General Midi section using the Roland SC-XX equipment. So, without knowing hardly anything about them, what are they, how much do they $$$ and are they even obtainable?

I'm probably going to be quite content with my AWE64, but I am so ignorant on this subject, a little background info would help clear things up.

One more thing, I didn't purchase the AWE64 gold...it would have been $10 more dollars. I didn't think there'd be that much difference, hoping the noise would still be as low as the Gold version. Was that a mistake?

I do have the AWE64 Gold.

If it was accessible to you for an extra $10, you should have bought it.

For one, if you are worried about electrical noises, the Gold has separate Audio L-R output jacks, with gold covering. This will be able to deliver better sound quality, than through a common stereo splitter wires-jack combination.

What you're asking for regarding the Roland equipments is really a vast subject and is quite difficult to explain in a few lines, if you're a beginner in this matter.
I'm no expert myself, but you can try the following suggestion:

1. Wikipedia.

2. You can also visit Queststudios forum for more information: http://www.queststudios.com/smf/.

3. I found this site which is very beginner-friendly, but unfortunately, the site is still under construction and the pages do not load correctly always. Try refreshing the page if so. http://home.swipnet.se/~w-55114/index2.htm

There are other great people here who have good knowledge in this. They maybe able to help you. If you're really interested in these equipments, I strongly urge you to post MIDI modules based questions in the QuestStudios forum, which have profound discussions regarding PC sounds and Roland modules.

I think the AWE64 Gold's L/R RCA outputs are just designed with convenience for musician equipment than anything else. The connectors aren't what give the slightly better quality. I think the card has somewhat better onboard noise-filtering / isolation. Consider that the best modern sound cards with incredibly clear, high quality output usually have regular stereo minijack outputs....

I should stress "somewhat better" too because my Ensoniq Soundscape with its plain aluminum stereo minijacks sounds much more clear and crisp than the AWE64 Gold. The Aureal and SBLive cards are much better too. Other AWE cards can be just embarrassingly bad though, with all the noise and pops/clicks they dump out even the "line level" jack.

swaaye wrote:

I think the AWE64 Gold's L/R RCA outputs are just designed with convenience for musician equipment than anything else. The connectors aren't what give the slightly better quality. I think the card has somewhat better onboard noise-filtering / isolation.

Agreed. The gold plated RCA outputs do nothing for the sound quality. They only last longer than the usual cheap T/R/S jacks and won't corrode.
I'm not sure about the noise filtering either. It rather seems to me that an AWE64 Value with the CT8920 chip is quieter than an AWE65 Gold with CT8903, because it doesn't need that damn CT1745 mixer chip.

The other features an AWE64 Gold has over a Standard/Value AWE64 are not very important to gamers.
The Gold variant has 4 MB sample RAM instead of the usual 512 KB/1 MB. But this only matters if you want to load sound fonts or tracker music samples.
This is the only reason why I would choose a Gold over a Standard/Value card.

Thank you Malik for the informative pages. The SC-55 seems like a good device and is General Midi compliant. Do they make sound cards with the same capability, or is the only way to (300+ sounds) get one of those external devices?

This is a good overview on roland sound canvas hardware for games:
Roland RAP-10, SC-7, SCC-1, SC-55, SCD-15 etc..

To avoid confusion, remember:
SCD-10 package contains a daughterboard named SCB-7
SCD-15 package contains a daughterboard named SCB-55

Of course there are also GM or GM+GS sound canvas clones, in different grades of hardware and 'sound' compatibility. Most are much smaller than a full SC-55 module, like a turtle beach cancun FX daughterboard.

After reading up some more, it's become clear that I should make it known the only DOS games I play are rather late ones: created in or after 1994 (I think Privateer is the earliest I have). I think, then, that they'd all support General Midi, no? In which case, what would be the best solution? A DBXG50 on a SB16?

I found a lot of useful layman information on the MIDI options at this site (thanks to Retro who posted the link in an earlier thread):

http://members.chello.at/theodor.lauppert/games/roland.htm

General Midi sounds like a good option, if your DOS games are from about '94 onwards. You don't need to worry about trying to find a Roland LAPC-I for instance (and they are rare and very expensive - I've given up trying to get one.) In theory, a SB16 + wavetable daughterboard would be a good choice, but many SB16 cards have a nasty bug whereby the wavetable sound becomes "corrupted". Question to group: what would be a good 16-bit soundcard replacement for a SB16, with a bug-free wavetable header?

You could mount a wavetable card on a Roland MPU-401 card, but alas these things are rare these days. Wavetable cards themselves are fairly rare and pricey too. You can get a Yamaha clone on ebay for about £40 (UK currency - please use xe.com to change it to yours) inclusive of shipping.

Another option is to get a Roland SCC-1 card, which is a very good general midi card (perhaps even the best), but 🙁 you guessed it, they are now quite rare.

The good news is that the SC-55 external unit (which is an SCC-1 PC card in an external box basically), although expensive, seems to pop up on ebay quite often. (Although I can only speak for the UK ebay website, where I do most of my retro shopping.)