I have a crappy Sony Viao I converted to a Windows 98 SE gaming computer also, however I rarely use it now that I have a Packard Bell from 1996 (WOOO! ISA SLOTS! 🤣).

Gamecollector wrote:

PcBytes wrote:

NamelessPlayer wrote:

I admittedly only built a P4 setup for retrogaming because it was the only way to have a decent XP-grade machine while still having full-blown ISA for DOS/Win9x usage. Can't do that with Athlon XP/64, the right chipsets just don't exist.

Doesn't VIA's KT133 have ISA support?

Intel 865PE/875P chipsets have an ISA support (but w/o DMA). The trouble is - 865PE+ISA motherboards are extremely rare and industrial only. Plus you can't use this "ISA" for soundcards.

My BC875PLG would like a word with you on that, considering that my AWE64 Gold works in it just fine.

Heck, I'd use my AWE32 instead, but finding a case that'll actually fit that behemoth in the 7th slot (and not have a sidewall in the middle that disagrees with the humongous Scythe Ninja HSF I have strapped to the mobo) is easier said than done.

9x5/ICH6 chipsets may not be so fortunate, but 8x5/ICH5 still seems to be in the clear, provided that you can get your hands on an industrial mobo on eBay without getting your wallet reamed.

As for VIA chipsets, aren't those just asking for trouble? I actually did consider a VIA chipset for a planned Tualatin build out of ISA with 1+ GHz CPU desperation before learning about the P4 industrial mobos with proper Intel chipsets and real ISA slots.

NamelessPlayer wrote:

My BC875PLG would like a word with you on that, considering that my AWE64 Gold works in it just fine.

I have read specs for this motherboard. The ISA support is through 3rd party controller (Winbond W83628F), not through 875P itself. IIRC - 865PE/875P have built-in ISA support, but - no NMI?

P.S. Motherboard have "Disable L1 and L2 cache" option. It can do this for Pentium 4?

Gamecollector wrote:

NamelessPlayer wrote:

My BC875PLG would like a word with you on that, considering that my AWE64 Gold works in it just fine.

I have read specs for this motherboard. The ISA support is through 3rd party controller (Winbond W83628F), not through 875P itself. IIRC - 865PE/875P have built-in ISA support, but - no DMA and no NMI.

P.S. Motherboard have "Disable L1 and L2 cache" option. It can do this for Pentium 4?

disabling the caches on a Pentium 4 sounds like an act of pure cruelty. 😀 Would be pretty amazing though, if it can do that.

Gamecollector wrote:

P.S. Motherboard have "Disable L1 and L2 cache" option. It can do this for Pentium 4?

I've read about folks doing this in the past - it slows the CPU down dramatically, but apparently can make some old games/applications work more nicely as a result.

Gamecollector wrote:

I have read specs for this motherboard. The ISA support is through 3rd party controller (Winbond W83628F), not through 875P itself. IIRC - 865PE/875P have built-in ISA support, but - no DMA and no NMI.

P.S. Motherboard have "Disable L1 and L2 cache" option. It can do this for Pentium 4?

I started taking retro (dos gaming) computing up again, using a motherboard like the one described here.
It was a motherboard, taken from an old HP D530-SFF computer. It had 8X5/ICH5 chipset combination.
The problem was, that even if I set the "non masked interrupt" in the bios correctly. (think it was that)
The machine would drop all SB16 emulation using the SB-LIVE card and all other PCI based soundcards.
The machine did not have physical ISA slot. Never the less, it had some sort of ISA support (for max 20 min.)
Then I had to do a cold start, having turned all power off. It was defect or just prtial ISA supported.
Now I do PCI soundcards only if the board have physical ISA slots if I need to do DOS computing.

If someone could find the complete specs for the D530-SFF board, and look into the Chipset/Southbridge
combination of this machine, then we might have some of the absolutely last ISA supported technology.
Well... Partially ISA supported, that is.... 🤣 (I have not found any tech-spec doc's online)

As for the mobo, well....
It went to the trashbin, after I started recieving boards with physical ISA slots. Well...
Not until I desoldered all the capasitors from that board, and then it went "out the window".

TELEPACMAN wrote:

brostenen wrote:

Yeahh.... P4 and retro gaming is best served up on XP.
We might see that in 5 years from now, when kids of the 00's have all grown up.
Then socket 478 systems will be rare. Keep all pci cards from now on i say.

I agree, but those kids will probably chose a P4 merely for nostalgia, because for XP the Pentium4 will not be the ideal system. I mean even a brand new PC today could be a ideal Windows XP game machine don't you think? So, aside from price and availability today, maybe we've a system that doesn't have much retro gaming value, although there are some very good examples of win98 gaming.

Interesting, however I fear that no one years from now is going to feel nostalgic about P4's. I mean, these are the kids who nowadays are trading in their smartphones every three months so they can have the latest and greatest model. They're just throw-away items, and they'll probably feel the same way about their computers. Kind of sad really...

P4's are very OLD machines already to many of the cellphone generation already.
I don't think many will care... the problem is most P4's don't do anything unique really.
Compared to a modern PC. They just do it slower. Most XP things work fine in Vista\7\8. P4's mostly run XP.
And there are no ISA sound cards with unique sounds, etc to redeem them.

the problem is most P4's don't do anything unique really.
Compared to a modern PC. They just do it slower.

^ This.
Not only that but relatively it was a terrible processor. Clock for clock it is usually worse than a P3

AlphaWing wrote:

...Most XP things work fine in Vista\7\8...

Most but not all. XP has a place in the complete retro stable - or eventually will. And since XP can share hardware W98 is comfortable with [as I and other dual drive/OS posters have noted] you have the possibility of a very nice late-98/XP era build to support an interesting chapter in the retro gaming catalog without sacrificing performance.

P4 is obviously not the only route to follow but it is cheap, plentiful with lots of hardware options. I've come to like my P4 rig. And I'm finding more and more things to re-install on the XP drive as times goes on..

Low speed? I see that as a non-issue, and would prefer it to be slower.

I install XP\2k on most of my retro machines. I don't like the bloat that is Vista\7\8 on older machines even a P4.
I'm not saying anything against that, just that P4's to the current generation are not special in anyway, I doubt there will be a demand for them, like a PII with ISA slots, and an unique sounding sound card.

They mostly run XP, and most programs for XP work on modern windows, and modern machines with very few exceptions from my experience.
The drive to keep them in service just isn't there.

That doesn't mean you can't use them as a retro machine if you happen to have a board that plays nice with 9x.
It just means I don't see them ever commanding the silly prices like some socket 7 boards do.

I would like that 8 does not run on early P4 because it requires the NX bit

Gamecollector wrote:

NamelessPlayer wrote:

My BC875PLG would like a word with you on that, considering that my AWE64 Gold works in it just fine.

I have read specs for this motherboard. The ISA support is through 3rd party controller (Winbond W83628F), not through 875P itself. IIRC - 865PE/875P have built-in ISA support, but - no DMA and no NMI.

P.S. Motherboard have "Disable L1 and L2 cache" option. It can do this for Pentium 4?

Huh, didn't know that. All I know is that around here, it's commonly said that 8x5/ICH5 is the last chipset to have ISA DMA support. You're the first one to challenge that.

But that 3rd-party controller seems to be doing the job so far, at least for sound cards. Maybe I need to test out something real exotic, like a Forte VFX1's VIP card if I ever get my hands on such a system. (No, I'm not paying $300 when that's within spitting distance of an Oculus Rift DK2.)

Disabling the cache...hmmm, never thought to try that. But wouldn't that still leave the L3 cache running on my Gallatin (Extreme Edition) chip? I know, odd case, most people are going to be running Northwood or Prescott sans L3.

NamelessPlayer wrote:

it's commonly said that 8x5/ICH5 is the last chipset to have ISA DMA support.

Yes, I was wrong. I have read ICH5/ICH5R datasheets, this I/O hub have LPC DMA (2x82C37 emulation) and PIC (2x82C59 emulation) for the ISA compatibility. So, the only question is NMI support... And ISA -5V power line. 😀

This thread seems to be getting more and more interresting by each post. 😀

Well I think that some of the interest in P4 retro building is due to those who had or wanted a good rig from 2002-2005 but just couldn't afford build a nice one. The majority of the rigs from the time were just pure junk and had the lowest quality boards along with even worse power supplies. On the plus side 775 with agp and Intel all the way is attractive even if it means using a p4, had my fill of those slow half backed VIA chipsets. Give it a few years and people will want to build such rigs along with more socket A and 939/940 popping up. 939/940 build with a pair of 6800 Ultra in sli sounds very sexy. Core 2 era will need half a decade more to become interesting as retro but it wouldn't hurt to scoop up the better goodies before they become rare.

Gamecollector wrote:

NamelessPlayer wrote:

it's commonly said that 8x5/ICH5 is the last chipset to have ISA DMA support.

Yes, I was wrong. I have read ICH5/ICH5R datasheets, this I/O hub have LPC DMA (2x82C37 emulation) and PIC (2x82C59 emulation) for the ISA compatibility. So, the only question is NMI support... And ISA -5V power line. 😀

I've tested this boards ISA slot briefly (BC875PLG), and it accepted an AWE32 CT3980 fine, but would lock up using a SB Pro 2. At the time, I attributed this to its 10Mhz ISA clock, not sure though - couldn't find a way to modify the ISA clock.

Also, with L1/L2 disabled using a 3.2 GHz Prescott, I was getting something similar to a 486 DX2 66MHz - around a score of 30 FPS in 3DBench. The board's in temporary storage, so haven't done much testing since.

leileilol wrote:

My P4 system feels much like a 1998 machine with an overkill processor, thanks to the video cards being reasonable bottlenecks. Speedy loading (and installing!) times are a nice advantage as well as stability (for non-HT processors).

I'm considering getting one now, thanks a lot.

TELEPACMAN wrote:

leileilol wrote:

My P4 system feels much like a 1998 machine with an overkill processor, thanks to the video cards being reasonable bottlenecks. Speedy loading (and installing!) times are a nice advantage as well as stability (for non-HT processors).

I'm considering getting one now, thanks a lot.

I decided to start looking for a P4 and give it a go 😁
So what should I be looking for? What Pentium4 would be a good balance for 1986-1996 ms-dos games in DOSBox and at the same time for DirectX7/Win98 games? (for which I would like to use my Geforce2 Ultra if possible).
I would like to keep the SLI Voodoo2 on other rigs so considering also nGlide.