VOGONS


First post, by RacoonRider

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Everybody lies.
- House M.D.

I've been reading various articles and forum threads, both in Russian and in English, on the topic of optimizing budget CPU coolers for Socket 462. A lot of myths wander around the net. People who claim to have tried them usually state 3-5 degrees Celcium improvement in CPU temperature during heavy load.

Of course, having a rig to mess with, I was tempted to try them out.
P1040717.JPG
P1040718.JPG
My setup is as follows (I mentionned it in several other threads already)
Ahlon XP 3200+
GA-7n400S (nforce 2 Ultra chip set)
Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB
1.5GB DDR2-400
Creative Audigy ES
ASUS PCI-N10 wireless PCI adapter
Seagate Barracuda 7200 250GB SATA HDD
Pioneer DVR-111 DVD-RW
Zalman 450GS PSU

Coolin solutions (Left to right, top down):
Arctic cooling F8 on a CPU
120mm cheap deepcool exhaust fan
LYF Slot exhaust turbine blower
Chinese videocard cooling system
Arctic cooling F8 intake fan

Myth number one: Copper core coolers are always better
I have a very fancy-looking copper core heatsink from Titan (no idea what model, they are all really similar). It's shiny and looks well polished.
I also have an Igloo 2640 heatsink. It's all aluminium, oxidized and very crude. Of course, I picked the Titan at first.
P1040720.JPG
I was not concerned with it much when I had 2600+, but 3200+ is a hotter thing, so I decided to complete a stability test with AIDA 64. With all coolers at MAX (except for the slot blower, I did not have one back then), it showed me 77C max/ 74.8C avg after half an hour of heavy load. With maximum operating temperature of 85C it's no good idea to keep the CPU that hot. When (just in case) I tried Igloo with the exact same fan, the temps decreased to 72C max/70,3 avg. Not bad!

If we calculate the surface of heat exchange, we'll know exaclty why Titan is so much less effective:

Parameter____________Igloo_________Titan
Number of fins_________29x2_________21x2
Single fin surface_____945mm^2_____868mm^2
Total fin surface____54 810mm^2___36 456mm^2

So, being almost identical visually, Titan has only 66% of Igloo's heat exchange surface and the copper core can not compensate that loss of "raw power". However, Titan looks much better and Copper core certainly helped it gain its place in the market.

Myth number two: a heatsink should have cuts in its base parallel to it's fins

One website suggested I should cut the base of the heatsink promising a generous 5C decrease in CPU temperature under load due to effective removal of hot air from the gap between the CPU board and the surface of the heatsink. I just had to try that! So I went to the garage and made 4 cuts in the heatsink base and 4 additional holes for better airflow. I knew that it was unlikely that the hot air was hiding under the heatsink, but I thought that measure would help me direct the airflow closer to the middle of the heatsink, in other words, act like a vent. The 5C decrease in CPU temperature under load seemed unlikely as well, yet tempting.
P1040696.JPG
P1040697.JPG
P1040698.JPG
Guess what? The effect was hardly noticeable, less then 0.8C average under load, yet positive. Why would one state their vents gave them 5C improvement, when mine sucked so much?

Myth number three: bigger is better

There was a page suggesting I should find a 90mm cooler with 80mm mounting holes and fasten it on the stock AMD cooler to get much better airflow. I grabbed this fan from a friend for a few hours, not sure about the model number.
24173.jpg
Guess what? The temperature of CPU under constant load raised to 82C and kept going up. I shut the computer down to prevent any possible damage. The fan was all right, it's still cooling my friend's overclocked C2D. What was the reason then? Well, for starters, the rotary movement made by the fan creates centrifugal force driving the air from the center to the periphery. In other words, the fan blows much more near the edge than close to center. Besides, the central area is obstructed by the engine, so air barely moves there. And, as you might imagine, a larger fan has huge gaps between the fan shroud and the heatsink, where all the air goes.

Myth number four: higher is better
So how do you compensate both the fact that the engine obstructs the center of the heatsink and the centrifugal airflow without buying a new cooler? There is a website that suggests putting an empty cooler shroud between the cooler and the heatsink.
I made several shrouds for the job, including 2 90mm ones. However, I don't have a spare 90mm cooler at hand right now, so maybe next time.
P1040715.JPG
A cooler featuring one 80mm shroud between the heatsink and the 80mm fan gives mixed results and will be tested further. During AIDA64 stability test the showed slightly higher temperature than the cooler without a shroud. However, when I left the program gathering data and played Portal for 2 hours (at 100% CPU load with occasional drops), the statistic tab showed 71max/68.5 average against 72max/70.3 average received during stability test without shroud.

Everybody lies
The ideas I tested here turned out to be either next to useless or false.
Marketologists are known to lie to increase sales. Bulky Igloo 2640 is (probably twice) cheaper to produce, yet a fancy Titan is more likely to gain attention of even an experienced buyer. It does not matter if it's better or not, just wrap it up the right way and sell it. Overclockers and experienced users often lie as well. If they mod something, they start with a certain assumption - we all have them. And most assumptions are false. But after grinding a heatsink for a good hour in the garage it's really hard to admit your defeat. People still want to show off on the net and they wrap it up as if they got much better results. Sometimes they even do it unintentionally, helping the results confirm their hypothesis, that way they lie to themselves as well. We all know better than to trust Internet much, and we should not forget to question ourselves before we do something stupid.

Reply 2 of 24, by Zenn

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

While I wouldn't say that copper core coolers are always better, if all things being equal, shouldn't a copper core cooler be more effective due to copper's ability to transfer heat better than aluminium?

A fair comparison would be the Zerotherm BTF80 (Al) vs the BTF90 (Cu). The BTF90 outperformed the BTF80 by a couple of degrees. http://www.silentpcreview.com/article645-page4.html

Reply 3 of 24, by RacoonRider

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
Zenn wrote:

While I wouldn't say that copper core coolers are always better, if all things being equal, shouldn't a copper core cooler be more effective due to copper's ability to transfer heat better than aluminium?

A fair comparison would be the Zerotherm BTF80 (Al) vs the BTF90 (Cu). The BTF90 outperformed the BTF80 by a couple of degrees. http://www.silentpcreview.com/article645-page4.html

Thank you for the URL. Of course in equal conditions copper cores are slightly better (There is an exception though, one of Thermaltake Volcano coolers, don't remember exactly). The point is that copper core cooler has more marketing behind it than one would expect and it should not affect our choice as much as it does. Solid geometry is way more important.

Reply 4 of 24, by KT7AGuy

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
RacoonRider wrote:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/99196890/vogons/P1040720.JPG […]
Show full quote

P1040720.JPG

That looks just like the Spire FalconRock II cooler that I use with my Athlon XP 2100+.

It's a decent cooler. Had it now for about 13 years I think. It's still going strong.

Reply 5 of 24, by fyy

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
RacoonRider wrote:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/99196890/vogons/P1040720.JPG […]
Show full quote

P1040720.JPG

Are you sure that's a copper core? I've had a few that look like that and upon closer examination the "copper" was actually just a dark stain to make it look copper.

Reply 6 of 24, by Nahkri

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

http://www.titan-cd.com/Y_product_C_old_e.php?id=671
I used to have this Titan cooler on my Socket A Barton 2500+,i kept it overcloked at 3200+ speed,and with arctic silver 5,it had a manual speed controler,i kept it at half speed and usually the highest temp i got in games was 55-56 C.
I was very satisfied with this product since it was much cheaper then other products back then.

Reply 7 of 24, by Matth79

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Interesting...

I though the cuts would be a lot worse, reducing the effectiveness of the fins beyond the cuts.

Spacers? They may reduce the blade chop noise, but the turbulent airflow off a closer fan may cool better - leading to the other paradox - larger fan on reducer - you could put a LOT of quiet airflow in with a larger fan on a reducing funnel, and eliminate the hub deadspot, but will that quiet smooth airflow cool as well as the turbulent blade chop?

Reply 8 of 24, by swaaye

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Cooler Master Aero 7+ had a blower as a gimmick to solve the deadzone issue. It has a potentiometer attached so you can control the fan speed so it can be quiet. But it isn't exactly an exceptional performer with its small heatsink.

Attachments

  • aero7plus3.jpg
    Filename
    aero7plus3.jpg
    File size
    112.36 KiB
    Views
    1021 views
    File license
    Fair use/fair dealing exception

Reply 9 of 24, by nforce4max

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

The coolers that you used are junk and some of us had some experience with the lame copper core as well copper cladded coolers. Always go solid copper cooler of a good design and weight preferably with heat pipes. A cheap but effective cooler is the Zalman CNPS7000 series but if you want something a bit modern you can use the mounts from the cnps 7000 and just use a vastly more modern zalman cooler. Socket A coolers in general have always been a horrible experience and the high leakage of AMD's fabrication process made things much worse. As for thermal compound use modern compounds like the GC Extreme that out perform even arctic silver 5 by several c.

On a far away planet reading your posts in the year 10,191.

Reply 10 of 24, by swaaye

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Yeah I have some good ones around like Thermalright SLK800 and SLK700, and a Thermaltake Pipe 101. But it's not really critical to go nuts with cooling. There's no real reason to worry about temps like 60-70C. It just doesn't matter unless you are still overclocking this hardware and finding the ragged edge of stability.

Now that I think about it the Thermalright SLK700 often shipped with a TMD fan to reduce dead zone. That fan is rather annoying though.

Reply 11 of 24, by AidanExamineer

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

Make sure you use Arctic Silver 5, it's "The Best" thermal paste.

Which I'll admit I thought was true. Falling back on Arctic MX-2 as a standard. I'd like to play with PK-1 too. If you just do a few casual searches though you will be led to believe that Arctic Silver 5 is the most high-tech paste, and guaranteed to please.

Reply 12 of 24, by Tetrium

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Maybe I'm just easily satisfied, but for me anything better and quieter then the stock sA coolers were good enough for me (particularly of they are/were cheap).
The Athlon XP stock coolers I typically replace with a Copper Silent 3-something (it has this fan suspended above the HS) as it cooled my Athlon XP 3200 well enough to never have any problems with it, even with only 1 8cm case fan in the (not so good at cooling) Fujitsu Siemens case. And they were also very cheap.
Never had any issues with my Arctic MX-2 also (and not gonna replace it as long as the tube isn't empty)

The Socket A coolers that are crummy I just put on a Coppermine instead, replace fan if needed 😁

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 13 of 24, by sliderider

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Have you tested whether lapping and polishing the heatsink actually helps? I've never done it, but have read about it a lot. It seems to me that a good quality thermal compound would fill in all the gaps anyway making lapping and polishing redundant. I've seen pictures where the heatsink was literally lapped and polished to a mirror-like finish, and it seems silly to put that much effort into it.

Reply 14 of 24, by nforce4max

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
AidanExamineer wrote:

Make sure you use Arctic Silver 5, it's "The Best" thermal paste.

Which I'll admit I thought was true. Falling back on Arctic MX-2 as a standard. I'd like to play with PK-1 too. If you just do a few casual searches though you will be led to believe that Arctic Silver 5 is the most high-tech paste, and guaranteed to please.

Arctic Silver 5 isn't the best compound anymore as there is at least 6-8 better compounds on the market. GC Extreme is as good as it gets without being a liquid metal alloy and is a bit expensive but worth it. Doesn't set hard unlike arctic silver 5 and is several c better overall.

On a far away planet reading your posts in the year 10,191.

Reply 15 of 24, by chinny22

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

interesting little read. Some were pretty obvious like the bigger fan and some I've never come across like making cuts in the base. In the end a good high quality cooler that's not full of gimmicks should work well. but its always nice to have some numbers to confirm

Reply 16 of 24, by RacoonRider

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Wow! the thread suddenly went back to life 😀

fyy wrote:

Are you sure that's a copper core? I've had a few that look like that and upon closer examination the "copper" was actually just a dark stain to make it look copper.

I'm pretty sure. It's got a hole on the other side, simplifies the technology, I beleive.

swaaye wrote:

Cooler Master Aero 7+ had a blower as a gimmick to solve the deadzone issue. It has a potentiometer attached so you can control the fan speed so it can be quiet. But it isn't exactly an exceptional performer with its small heatsink.

Already bought one, waiting for it to arrive

nforce4max wrote:

The coolers that you used are junk and some of us had some experience with the lame copper core as well copper cladded coolers. Always go solid copper cooler of a good design and weight preferably with heat pipes. A cheap but effective cooler is the Zalman CNPS7000 series but if you want something a bit modern you can use the mounts from the cnps 7000 and just use a vastly more modern zalman cooler. Socket A coolers in general have always been a horrible experience and the high leakage of AMD's fabrication process made things much worse. As for thermal compound use modern compounds like the GC Extreme that out perform even arctic silver 5 by several c.

AidanExamineer wrote:

Make sure you use Arctic Silver 5, it's "The Best" thermal paste.
Which I'll admit I thought was true. Falling back on Arctic MX-2 as a standard. I'd like to play with PK-1 too. If you just do a few casual searches though you will be led to believe that Arctic Silver 5 is the most high-tech paste, and guaranteed to please.

I use Russian КПТ-8. It's been here since 1974, and it has not failed me once. Good thermal paste, there sure is better, but this one has always been a safe choice.

sliderider wrote:

Have you tested whether lapping and polishing the heatsink actually helps? I've never done it, but have read about it a lot. It seems to me that a good quality thermal compound would fill in all the gaps anyway making lapping and polishing redundant. I've seen pictures where the heatsink was literally lapped and polished to a mirror-like finish, and it seems silly to put that much effort into it.

Well, no, I'm probably too lazy to do that 😀 I gave the Igloo a little polish though, it had to remove the signs of wear after all the sawing and drilling.

chinny22 wrote:

interesting little read. Some were pretty obvious like the bigger fan and some I've never come across like making cuts in the base. In the end a good high quality cooler that's not full of gimmicks should work well. but its always nice to have some numbers to confirm

That was probably the point of this thread 😀 Considering the numbers, I'm going to wait for Aero7+ to arrive and then make an open stand for a good testing. I don't want to ruin my current board with all the switching and I have another crappy one that will do nicely.

I was hoping that perhaps anyone else knows a way to improve a budget cooler I have not tried yet?

Reply 17 of 24, by swaaye

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Thermal paste effectiveness varies less than internet sentiment leads one to believe.

I've experimented with heatsink lapping a few times. I have a plate of glass and a bunch of sandpaper grades. It's difficult to not create a convex surface even with the glass plate. It's not at all worth the effort in my opinion.

Reply 18 of 24, by AidanExamineer

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
RacoonRider wrote:

Wow! the thread suddenly went back to life 😀

AidanExamineer wrote:

Make sure you use Arctic Silver 5, it's "The Best" thermal paste.
Which I'll admit I thought was true. Falling back on Arctic MX-2 as a standard. I'd like to play with PK-1 too. If you just do a few casual searches though you will be led to believe that Arctic Silver 5 is the most high-tech paste, and guaranteed to please.

I use Russian КПТ-8. It's been here since 1974, and it has not failed me once. Good thermal paste, there sure is better, but this one has always been a safe choice.

I'm kidding of course. 😉 There was an excellent series of tests done by Skinnee Labs that showed Arctic Silver 5 as less effective than some claim. If you read the charts though, you still see the temperature variance is only a few degrees C as long as the contact between IHS and HSF is good. So while AS5 might be demonstrably worse than many other similarly priced pastes, it's also functionally identical to those same pastes. Weird.

http://skinneelabs.com/thermal-paste/2011-201 … l-paste-review/

Reply 19 of 24, by swaaye

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Check out this link too. I like the focus on paste application methodology with this review.
http://archive.benchmarkreviews.com/index.php … d=150&Itemid=62

You certainly don't need to spend much on paste to get decent quality.