VOGONS


First post, by ynari

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Does anyone know of an HDMI to VGA converter that does at least 1600x1200 at 75Hz (or better). The pixel clock in most of the adapters is limited to 165MHz so it should theoretically work, but I bet it doesn't..

Why? HDCP. It's possible to buy cheap HDMI splitters that report that HDCP is ok, allowing the playing of HD content. This is fine on a TFT, but I want to get all monitors (some of which are CRT) working, and 60Hz is not pleasant on CRT. I know an HDFury is an option, but it's ridiculously expensive given the cost/age of a CRT.

Alternatively, any other option that lets a CRT monitor be seen as HDCP compliant.

Reply 3 of 10, by obobskivich

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MrEWhite wrote:

Im pretty sure HDMI only goes up to 60 HZ, might be wrong tho

No it can go higher. Just not at 1600x1200 on single-link connections (which are limited to 1600x1200 @ 60Hz or 1920x1200 @ 60 Hz). I've run 75Hz and 85Hz on HDMI into a compatible monitor with no problems, but that's at 1024x768 or 800x600 - not 1600x1200.

candle_86 wrote:

HDMI is limited to 30, 60, 120hz

No it is not. On CE devices HDMI is usually implemented with a fairly narrow range of common display timings/options, but from a PC it will generally do anything that single-link DVI will do. 😀

The easiest answer for ynari's question is HD Fury - it will do exactly what is wanted (HDCP stripping). That said, why is HDCP such a concern? It really only affects Blu-ray and HD-DVD playback (there are some CE devices, like the Toshiba HD-DVD players and PlayStation 3, that require HDCP for HDMI, but they support YPbPr for legacy devices (and YPbPr to VGA adapters are cheap and easy to find)). "Normal" HD content, like watching HD video on YouTube, does not support HDCP, so it's of no concern there.

Reply 4 of 10, by PhilsComputerLab

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My main PC has a GTX 660 with HDMI into a Samsung LCD monitor. It can do 75 Hz (Custom resolution).

YouTube, Facebook, Website

Reply 5 of 10, by Jepael

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Yeah HDMI links used to be limited to 165MHz pixel clock which equaled 165MHz link clock but later on they could use 225 MHz link clock but it only increased color depth to 10 or 12 bits instead of 8, so the pixel clock limit was still 165MHz. Nowadays you can get 340MHz link and pixel clocks, in the future 600MHz.

And no, converting HDCP protected content to analog is not legal to my knowledge, but technically it is possible.
But why would your PC enable HDCP if no software wants to output protected content?

So what might interest you are the DVI-D to VGA converters. They are not limited to HDMI consumer stuff. Just connect it with HDMI to DVI-D with a cable or adapter. But It might be hard to find a device that supports over 165MHz single link operation to get 1600x1200@75. I don't know if it is possible even with reduced blanking, but CRTs need standard blanking. 1600x1200@60 is doable. 1440x1050@75 and even 1440x900@85 is as they fit into 165MHz.

Reply 6 of 10, by obobskivich

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Jepael wrote:

Yeah HDMI links used to be limited to 165MHz pixel clock which equaled 165MHz link clock but later on they could use 225 MHz link clock but it only increased color depth to 10 or 12 bits instead of 8, so the pixel clock limit was still 165MHz. Nowadays you can get 340MHz link and pixel clocks, in the future 600MHz.

The 300+ is HDMI 1.4/2.0 stuff, which is rarely available on PC (most DVI->HDMI adapters only support single-link connection to the DVI port, so that caps you at 165MHz; but some newer graphics cards support HDMI 2.0 directly).

And no, converting HDCP protected content to analog is not legal to my knowledge, but technically it is possible.

Technically it is not illegal afaik; it's at the discretion of the rights-holder, and can be enforced per-disc (at least on Blu-ray and HD-DVD). Basically all of the early Blu-ray and HD-DVD players, and the original PS3, offer Blu-ray or HD-DVD output via analog (video and audio in many cases), but not all discs will allow >480p (this is more true of HD-DVD IME - the player will just pop up a little notice saying this disc is restricted to X resolution via analog - some DVDs also seem to trip this, which is likely an error (its likely looking for some setting bit that was used for something else (non-standard) ages ago)). Newer devices are eliminating analog outputs mostly as a function of cost I would guess (its probably cheaper to just have an HDMI port than to implement a bunch of analog video/audio connections). [and I said "basically all" because there are some first-gen Blu-ray players with only HDMI output, such as from Denon]

That said, that's output from the player - having a device "in-line" between the Blu-ray player and TV that modifies the copy protection may be another story altogether. From what I've read, HDFury is sold as an "upgrade module" to add HDCP to an existing display, which is probably some skirting-the-regulations name game, but within its intended purpose I don't see how the end result is any different from an early Blu-ray player's capabilities.

But why would your PC enable HDCP if no software wants to output protected content?

If you have HDCP-capable monitor and graphics card, it will enable during the handshake (just like HDMI devices do). nVidia cards with recent drivers will notify you of HDCP link status, including if it isn't available (and this can be seen as somewhat of a FUD feature, because it will complain even about VGA connections to analog monitors).

So what might interest you are the DVI-D to VGA converters. They are not limited to HDMI consumer stuff. Just connect it with HDMI to DVI-D with a cable or adapter. But It might be hard to find a device that supports over 165MHz single link operation to get 1600x1200@75. I don't know if it is possible even with reduced blanking, but CRTs need standard blanking. 1600x1200@60 is doable. 1440x1050@75 and even 1440x900@85 is as they fit into 165MHz.

1600x1200 @ 75Hz is over 200MHz pixel clock (w/o reduced blanking, which is what a CRT needs), and would require dual-link or VGA. 1280x1024 @ 85Hz would work though (~157MHz; 1280x960 would get you 4:3 and probably knock that down a little lower).

Reply 7 of 10, by ynari

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Yes, it would be useful to play both Blurays and other streaming services (Amazon Instant Video, which uses Silverlight, and will only enable HD if the display is HDCP compliant) on one monitor, at the same time I'm doing something on another. If only one monitor is HDCP enabled, HD content is unavailable.

30 quid for a HDMI switcher (plus cables) that makes a display HDCP compliant is very reasonable. 200 quid for a HDFury (the cheap HDFurys don't support the necessary output resolutions) is uneconomic for an old CRT monitor, but acceptable for my CRT projector bolted to the ceiling, which will probably only be doing 1080i, 1080p at a push..

Reply 8 of 10, by ynari

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I'm basically on a hiding to nothing, aren't I? It's not an extreme hardship to disable the CRT monitor when I want HD, as I have two monitors attached to another adapter running through another VM (Unix, instead of Windows) that I can do work on. Plus, if I keep the CRT monitor using DVI-A, it'll display a rock solid 1600x1200x100Hz, or a bit higher before I start to run out of resolvable phosphor on my C220p.

Reply 9 of 10, by obobskivich

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Yeah - I'd probably look to either replace that CRT for HD viewing, or use another display; keep the CRT for gaming or other tasks. As far as HD/video not working if not all displays are HDCP - that's nothing I've ever encountered. I do stream from Amazon VOD relatively often, and it doesn't seem to care about one of my monitors not being HDCP (I've never tried dragging the window over to it though - that monitor is setup vertically and is all but worthless for video as a result). I don't honestly remember much of trying HD-DVD on PC - I just know it wasn't a great experience at the time (even with hardware/software that was all rated to support it), and I more or less abandoned "HD disc on PC" after that.

Reply 10 of 10, by ynari

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You may want to take a closer look at Amazon VoD if you want the best quality.

Usually it'll start off using Flash (because most people don't have Silverlight installed), so HD is not available. There is also a setting in your Amazon video preferences to set the default to Flash, even if Silverlight is installed. Flash does not support HD.

Once Silverlight is installed, there are if I remember correctly, three possibilities to the HD icon - not available (film is only in SD) - non filled in icon, available but disabled because of no HDCP - grey icon, and available and possibly enabled - blue. If the icon doesn't offer the possibility of switching HD on or off when clicked, it's not in HD.

When one monitor is HDCP, and the other is not, this disables HD, regardless of the position of the browser window. If the non HDCP monitor is disabled in display properties, HD becomes available.

Fortunately, given that you're running a TFT, you can cheaply buy a box to fix this, as long as it's within single link bandwidth.