Socket 7 definitely does offer that sort of flexibility, not just by manipulating caches, but also by changing FSB and multiplier settings. It offers advantages for those such as yourself who need a specific performance regime because it remains capable of supporting PCI peripherals, larger storage options, and (sometimes) modern power supplies and cases out of the box.

As a point of reference, a socket 7 K6-2 CPU clocked at approximately 100mhz with both sets of caches disabled is a close approximation to a 386DX IIRC. This could potentially be clocked down to 75mhz using 50mhz FSB and 1.5 mult for an even deeper slowdown.

@OP:

From my tests, these are the best non-486 systems for speed sensitive games, especially for the DOS version of Ultima VII:

1) Turbo switched Socket 7 systems
2) Socket 7 systems with Write Through/ Write Back cache switching
3) Slot 1/ Socket 370 systems running VIA C3 Ezra CPUs
4) Pentium 4 ISA systems with L1 cache disabling

I've ran U7 on the above systems, and prefer them to Super Socket 7/ Socket 7 systems with simple L1/ L2 cache disabling and FSB switching. Ultima 7 re-enables L1 cache on these systems, but not on the ones I listed above.

Non of the above systems are easy to find, However, the simplest would be a Slot 1 system compatible with SMB utility (can switch FSB on-the-fly in DOS), and to use Setmul to switch Multipliers on-the-fly for Ezra CPUs in DOS (including Instruction Cache Disabling). This system is very easy to use, and smoothly scales from a slow 386 to a fast Pentium II (and all speed ranges in-between), and without the need to mess around with jumper settings...

Yeah, I think a Pentium could get me slow enough to run U7, but what about older games like U4?

I've read in a few places about Pentiums (MMX? Pro? Original?) that will go down to 8MHz, but no details on how to do so, or if it was a specific chip, or mobo, or both.

And yeah, PCI support would be pretty nice.

I have two different P4 systems that I tried disabling the cache on, and I don't think it did quite what I wanted =) Everything slowed down so much that doing anything at all took about five minutes.

j^aws wrote:

I've ran U7 on the above systems, and prefer them to Super Socket 7/ Socket 7 systems with simple L1/ L2 cache disabling and FSB switching. Ultima 7 re-enables L1 cache on these systems, but not on the ones I listed above.

Very cheeky of Lord British to do that. Kind of a shame that EPIA boards never came with ISA slots, then.

What's the best slowdown method for Pentium users, then? Are we forced to using Turbo/Mo'Slo?

Asaki wrote:

Yeah, I think a Pentium could get me slow enough to run U7, but what about older games like U4?

I can't remember if U4 is speed sensitive. The further back you go, the closer you aproach 8088 XT territory. I did some tests here:

The IBM XT challenge: How slow can you go with i386+ (IA-32) CPUs?

Asaki wrote:

I've read in a few places about Pentiums (MMX? Pro? Original?) that will go down to 8MHz, but no details on how to do so, or if it was a specific chip, or mobo, or both.

This could be refering to a POD83 in certain Socket 3 systems, or a Pentium P54C in certain Socket 5 systems (with Turbo switch) - I've heard of these, but not had experience with.

Asaki wrote:

I have two different P4 systems that I tried disabling the cache on, and I don't think it did quite what I wanted =) Everything slowed down so much that doing anything at all took about five minutes.

If these P4 systems are running DOS, then try running some benchmarks to get an idea on speed - there are plenty of benchmarks around. And then try running U7 to see how it behaves. Can you even get sound in DOS?

gdjacobs wrote:

What's the best slowdown method for Pentium users, then? Are we forced to using Turbo/Mo'Slo?

Depends on the capabilities of your board and the type of Pentium you have. Try looking for undocumented jumper settings for FSB. Some boards can go as low as 25MHz, or even lower. But this might affect other things that prevent the system from operating correctly, e.g. PS2 mouse not working. Also try looking for L1 Write-through/ Write-Back cache switching jumpers/ options - this kills CPU performance in a good way.

The type of Pentium would determine how low the multiplier would go. For example, POD83s on Socket 3 can have 1x, or P54Cs can have 1.5x on Socket 7. IIRC, certain AMD K5s and Cyrix 686s can have 1x on Socket 7 (no experience on these).

I prefer AMD K6-III+ (with a S7 adapter) married to certain Turbo-switched S7 boards; its performance is destroyed to 8088 XT speeds...

gdjacobs wrote:

What's the best slowdown method for Pentium users, then?

I just went through a bunch of these to see which ones would do anything on my system: http://www.sierrahelp.com/Utilities/SlowdownUtilities.html

AT-SLOW and ICD gave me the best results.

j^aws wrote:

I can't remember if U4 is speed sensitive.

It definitely is, I think most of the Ultima games are.

The first game I think got fixed with the re-release, but I can't recall. 2 and 3 have fan patches. 4 has a fan patch, but I couldn't figure out how to hack it to work without also installing the 256 color graphics. I'm mostly just using it as an easy (and free to download legally) example though, there are tons of other games from that era.

I'm going to dare to continue my post and then read your link afterwards =)

j^aws wrote:

This could be refering to a POD83 in certain Socket 3 systems, or a Pentium P54C in certain Socket 5 systems (with Turbo switch) - I've heard of these, but not had experience with.

Here's one reference, I suppose it wouldn't be hard to track down the exact system specs of these two models: http://www.oldskool.org/guides/oldonnew/friendlyboxes

Here's another reference, I guess I must have missed this one yesterday, says it's a socket 3 board: http://winhistory.de/more/386/xpmini.htm.en

Third reference was on these boards somewhere, I think? I can't find it.

j^aws wrote:

If these P4 systems are running DOS, then try running some benchmarks to get an idea on speed - there are plenty of benchmarks around.

IIRC, I tried running SI.exe and it crashed =)

j^aws wrote:

Can you even get sound in DOS?

One of the machines is a DOS/Win98 box, so yes.

I don't remember if I tried using other slowdown utils on it (I probably assumed, being such a fast processor, it wouldn't get very slow), but I know a lot of them don't support CPUs that new. I might play around with it for a minute tonight, but I'm not expecting much. I think I just disabled cache in the BIOS itself.

I'll also have to try that setmul program, never heard of that one before.

j^aws wrote:

If these P4 systems are running DOS, then try running some benchmarks to get an idea on speed - there are plenty of benchmarks around. And then try running U7 to see how it behaves. Can you even get sound in DOS?

SI.exe reports that I'm running 666MHz, with a benchmark score of 425-427.
After running throttle, setting it to 7, it reports 68MHz, benchmark of 404-420.

I mis-remembered; I have a laptop P4 (with no floppy drive and NTFS hard drive) that lets me disable the cache, but this desktop doesn't have hardly any options in the BIOS (it's a Dell Dimension 4400).

AT-SLOW surprisingly works, but running SI.exe seems to disable it.

U7 seems to run pretty good, but then I press esc to get to the main menu, and it just goes to black screen and stays there.

One of my PCI Sound Blasters is a CT4740, and the other is a CT4830, so they both have really awful sounding MIDI emulation =) Other than that, the 4740 seems to work okay. The other card doesn't seem to work.

^^ Is that 666MHz with L1 cache disabled? Have you tried comparing with other benchmarks, e.g. Speedsys or 3DBench?

What is your boards chipset, FSB and CPU?

Pentium IIs, IIIs and IVs normally fall into ballbark speeds for 286s, 386s and 486s respectively with L1 cache disabled in the BIOS (which should disable L2 too). You can try Setmul to disable L1 cache on P4s.

Also, your soundcards method of working in DOS may affect how U7 runs with slowdown tools. Try disabling the soundcard and running with no sound to see if you get the same glitch. There are other soundcards for PCI that could work better: ESS Solo-1, Yamaha YMF7x4 or Aureal Vortex 2 for example.

j^aws wrote:

^^ Is that 666MHz with L1 cache disabled?

Nope. The BIOS won't let me change anything, and ICD doesn't seem to work (though it says it's working). That's all stock speed settings, it's obviously reporting it wrong.

j^aws wrote:

Have you tried comparing with other benchmarks, e.g. Speedsys or 3DBench?

I tried MIPS but it seems like it gives me totally different numbers each time I try it, and sometimes they glitch up and draw in the wrong column.

j^aws wrote:

What is your boards chipset, FSB and CPU?

Dell Dimension 4400. FSB is 400MHz, CPU is 1.6GHz

j^aws wrote:

You can try Setmul to disable L1 cache on P4s.

I never bothered to try that one. The website said it was for AMD chips, so I didn't even download it.

j^aws wrote:

There are other soundcards for PCI that could work better: ESS Solo-1, Yamaha YMF7x4 or Aureal Vortex 2 for example.

I'm just using cards that I have handy. I don't intend to put any money into this P4 rig, I'm just toying around with it. When I actually do hook it up, it's mainly just for Voodoo3 stuff (and it has AC'97 audio that works fine in Windows). I've got an SB16 that I'm hoping works great, but it's ISA.

If you don't think a Pentium will get me slow enough, there's a great looking 486 that I'm thinking about taking the plunge on...and it has a TURBO button...I've always wanted one of those... B) No specs listed, but...how bad could it be?

Asaki wrote:

I've read in a few places about Pentiums (MMX? Pro? Original?) that will go down to 8MHz, but no details on how to do so, or if it was a specific chip, or mobo, or both.

The Dell Optiplex GXPro was supposed to be able to toggle between 200MHz and 8MHz using Ctl-Alt-\
I read about it here
http://www.oldskool.org/guides/oldonnew/friendlyboxes

Asaki wrote:

I never bothered to try that one. The website said it was for AMD chips, so I didn't even download it.

You should check it out and see. Here's the util:

It has extended functions for AMD k6-II+/III+ CPUs, VIA C3 and Pentium P54C CPUs. However, it can still be used on a basic level to disable Pentium L1 caches, even for Pentium 4 L1 caches (I've tested it, but my board also has BIOS capability to disable L1).

From your 400MHz FSB, and 1.6GHz CPU speed, I'd expect L1 cache disabling to yield a mid to high-end 386 equivalent. I was getting fast 486 speeds using 800MHz FSB and 3GHz+ P4s on an i875P chipset, for reference.

Speedsys benchmark:

This benchmark is widely used here, and should give an indication of speeds that are easy to relate to.

Asaki wrote:

If you don't think a Pentium will get me slow enough, there's a great looking 486 that I'm thinking about taking the plunge on...and it has a TURBO button...I've always wanted one of those... B) No specs listed, but...how bad could it be?

As mentioned earlier, 'slow enough' depends on your Pentium and the board it's attached to. If you insist on running the DOS version of U7, then you'd need a slowdown technique based on something besides just simple L1 cache toggling, unless it's something like the aforementioned options. There are Pentium boards that have low FSBs, around 25Mhz or less, so these boards usually don't need L1 cache disabling.

Having said that, 486s are far more common, so if you've seen one that you like, then go for it. But do check its specs, even though it has a Turbo switch, it may not funcion as expected; Turbo can be implemented in various ways...

I've just bought my first P-233 machine, so I'm new to all this, but I wonder — is it not simpler to just get an Ultima Collection CD with U7 on it? It's been released in 1997, so it must be patched for your Pentium-120, no?

^^ I have U7 from a different CDROM collection, but IIRC, it comes with a slow down utility - a version of Mo'slo if memory serves me, so that it could run on newer hardware.

So last night I decided to smuggle a floppy disk into work (third shift), and during break I snuck into the upstairs office and played around with their old 486 B) It's a Gateway 2000 486DX/33, it has one of those old drafting mice (I can't remember what they're called) attached to it. I have no idea what purpose it could serve.

Anyway, that was pretty cool, in a very nerdy sort of way. AT-SLOW got it to play Ultima IV pretty smoothly, but ICD didn't do anything, and the turbo button is broken on it, or unplugged.

That thing is very tall, and very heavy, and mostly empty =) No wonder eBay sellers mostly part everything out. I should've snooped around on the hard disk for clues. Maybe tomorrow.

j^aws wrote:

However, it can still be used on a basic level to disable Pentium L1 caches, even for Pentium 4 L1 caches (I've tested it, but my board also has BIOS capability to disable L1).

I gave it a try, it said it disabled the cache, but it didn't seem to change anything at all.

j^aws wrote:

This benchmark is widely used here, and should give an indication of speeds that are easy to relate to.

Oh yeah, I've seen screens of this one before, not bad. I might have to take some shots later, but I'm getting kind of bored with trying to run DOS on this P4 =)

j^aws wrote:

If you insist on running the DOS version of U7...

It would be nice to get that one running, but the main reason I chose it is because it's notorious for being problematic. I think Wing Commander II is supposed to be another one from that era, but I don't own it.

jheronimus wrote:

...is it not simpler to just get an Ultima Collection CD with U7 on it? It's been released in 1997, so it must be patched for your Pentium-120, no?

Nope, never patched, not even the GoG version. Your best bet is to either use Exult, or try to tweak DOSBox until it's "good enough".

Also, see above ^

Asaki wrote:

...it has one of those old drafting mice (I can't remember what they're called) attached to it.

Apparently they're just called tablets? It's a SummaSketch II, set up for drawing schematics in AutoCAD.

Asaki wrote:

I have no idea what purpose it could serve.

Looks like it belongs to a guy who we used to contract to build machines for us. There's programs that look like they're for programming some of our machines, and there's a whole lot of AutoCAD drawings on there. Windows 3.1 =) He changed all the blue theme to red, it's kind of cute.

Got a 486DX/33 running and it's pretty sweet B) Wish I'd known long ago that you can just get cheap adapters and use CF cards for hard drives...although it's very strange not to hear the nostalgic clicking noises. I wonder if anyone's made a simple mod hooking a buzzer up to the LED.

SB16 sounds awesome, but it took a bit of research to get it to work. Did not know I had to install Creative's PNP manager first. MIDI sounds way different in Win3 than in DOS. Weeeird.

U7 works great. Even with turbo enabled, it's a pretty comfortable speed, though it's possibly faster than intended? Turbo disabled almost seems a little too slow for my tastes.

With turbo disabled, the computer runs at half-speed, 16mHz. SI reports it as similar performance to a 386/33. With the cache memory disabled as well, it reports similar to a 286/8.

I've found that Ultima IV's problem isn't just with CPU speed. If I disable all of the video RAM options in the BIOS, it runs at a much more acceptable speed. If I try slowing it down with AT-SLOW instead, it just gets really laggy, which means I can't just hold down the arrow keys to move around.

Also, I knew that CTRL+ALT+NUMPLUS/MINUS toggled turbo mode, but I just learned the other day that SHIFT+CTRL+ALT+NUMPLUS/MINUS toggles cache memory! Super useful! Are there any more hotkeys like this?

Asaki wrote:

Nope, never patched, not even the GoG version. Your best bet is to either use Exult, or try to tweak DOSBox until it's "good enough".

Scratch that, I forgot that U7 is buggy in DOSBox.

Asaki wrote:

So last night I decided to smuggle a floppy disk into work (third shift), and during break I snuck into the upstairs office and played around with their old 486 B) It's a Gateway 2000 486DX/33, it has one of those old drafting mice (I can't remember what they're called) attached to it. I have no idea what purpose it could serve.

Anyway, that was pretty cool, in a very nerdy sort of way. AT-SLOW got it to play Ultima IV pretty smoothly, but ICD didn't do anything, and the turbo button is broken on it, or unplugged.

That thing is very tall, and very heavy, and mostly empty =) No wonder eBay sellers mostly part everything out. I should've snooped around on the hard disk for clues. Maybe tomorrow.

Did you ever get a chance to mess around with this again? Does it actually get used? It's always cool finding old PC's still kicking round in the workplace, even if its just quietly sitting in a corner.
You may be able to "safely dispose" of it for them. In this day and age of everything needing to be recycled some company's are happy for you to take the thing off their hands and bypass the whole task.
Sadly the other week I was somewhere where they had to be more formal, 2 Dell P166's are off to meet their maker.

The very next post has some updates. I don't think the guy who owns it is coming back for it, but I'd hate to just take it, because I'm sure all of the plans/schematics/programs/etc. on it have never been brought up-to-date on the newer computers.

Before messing with it, a few months ago, I did ask someone who it belonged to, and they said they had no idea. But I'm sure if I asked maintenance about it, they'd say that they need it.