VOGONS


First post, by athlon-power

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I have just come to a very weird, but helpful realization; my other PS/2 mice are terrible compared to this USB mouse I got yesterday at my local flea market. I decided to get it at the same time as I got that external SCSI backup drive, and when I decided to try it today, I realized that for some reason, this mouse completely destroys the period-accurate PS/2 mice I've been using with my 1999 rig for a while.

Every single PS/2 mouse I have (yes, I have cleaned all three points of input that the ball makes with the mouse, as well as the ball itself, with all of the prior mice) seems to have this weird "lag" issue in games- it is akin to input lag, but is also reminiscent of lower FPS, even though the FPS is technically the same. I have tried the following PS/2 mice, and this issue has never gone away, until now, with this USB mouse, of all things:

A Microsoft 1.1 Mouse
A Microsoft 1.3 Mouse
A Logitech 3-button (no scroll wheel) Mouse
A knockoff mouse with a scroll button, instead of a scroll wheel

All of these mice have had that lag issue, with two different motherboards. When I rebooted the PC with the USB mouse plugged in after removing the PS/2 mouse, the difference was night and day. Even the cursor input was noticeably faster and smoother. We are not talking about a laser mouse, either: all of these mice are ball mice, including the USB one. I could understand if this was a laser/optical mouse, but it's a ball mouse, like all the others. The only difference is that it's USB. It also seems to be quite old as well, considering that it does not have a scroll wheel. I originally bought this mouse just because I knew it was older, and it was unique because unlike any other mice I have, it is clear. I had no idea I would see this much of an improvement in Windows, let alone in games. I have made previous posts about less-than-satisfactory performance in games, specifically Half-Life. I am very convinced that this was because of that "laggy" mouse problem that all of my PS/2 mice encountered. Here are some photos of the new mouse in question, for anybody that's interested in seeing it:

IMG_20190106_092848.jpg
IMG_20190106_092857.jpg

I wouldn't be surprised if this post comes off as rushed. I am just excited to actually see what the performance of this machine is really like, and I could already tell a massive difference, even when testing in GLQuake. I thought the game ran smoothly with the PS/2 mice, but I had no idea how laggy it actually was compared to now. I am unsure of what causes this issue- for anybody that might want to look a little into this, I'm using the Intel SE440BX-2 motherboard. Before I was using a Gateway Tabor III, with the same Intel 440 chipset, but I don't know if it was the LX or BX variant. I must reiterate that all of these mice were cleaned with the same method: rubbing alcohol and paper towels. I always make sure any ball mice I use are clean before I use them. I think a lot of people attribute bad memories to ball mice, simply because they remember using the mice that were clogged up messes that resulted after nobody took the time to clean them.

Where am I?

Reply 1 of 11, by Koltoroc

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I suspect that difference comes from the difference in polling rate. PS/2 has a default pollrate of between 60Hz and 100Hz (I find conflicting info, but I believe 60 was standard), while USB has a default poll rate of 125hz with a maximum of 1kHz (no idea how to adjust, didn't look into it, might be hardware or driver dependent). There are tools to adjust PS/2 polling rate between 1 and 200Hz and that should eliminate that issue. Should, because I don't know how slower systems would be affected by faster polling rates, it might eat a bit more CPU time. USB doesn't have that issue since polling is done by the USB controller, not the CPU.

Reply 2 of 11, by Baoran

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I have not noticed any big lag with my ps/2 mice but all my ps/2 mice are optical without balls 😜
Not sure if having optical mice makes the difference though.

Reply 3 of 11, by Tiido

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I have never noticed any dead zone effect on any ball based mice, but every single optical mouse I have seen regardless of USB or PS/2 has a small dead zone and it is highly annoying when I work with pixel art or something else where I do precise and minute movements every once in a while.

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜

Reply 4 of 11, by SirNickity

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The resolution (DPI) of older mice is not great, so maybe your new USB mouse has a higher tracking resolution. The first USB and optical mouse I got was a corded Logitech, when USB was new, and it was like night and day compared to older PS2 ball mice. I still have that mouse, and now, compared to modern mice, that old optical feels like I'm dragging the cursor through mud.

My biggest beef with ball mice isn't dirty rollers. It's the Z-play of the ball. I've got an old (486 vintage) Logitech Mouseman Cordless I absolutely adore (despite it having something like a 15" useful wireless range 🤣), but you have to use it on a good, smooth, hard surface. If there's any variation (say, on a couch with a cardboard box as a mousepad.... don't judge), the ball will move up and down slightly, so the contact with the rollers suffers. Opticals need a good surface too, but not quite like that.

Tiido -- that dead zone issue sounds like power management. A lot of opticals (especially cordless) will reduce polling the image sensor to save power. Once you move them, they "wake up" and scan the surface at a higher rate. Is that what you're talking about? I've always found them to be pretty responsive otherwise. I'm sure there's a movement threshold before they start sending X/Y to the PC -- just simple hysteresis to avoid jitter -- but I would figure that to be sub-pixel. My work mouse (cordless Logitech M310) seems to move about as smoothly as I can manage while still breaking surface tension between the desk and the plastic/rubber pads on the bottom of the mouse. This is under Gentoo Linux with KDE 5 -- could have something to do with acceleration settings as well...? I know the Windows "improve pointer responsiveness" (or whatever the option is called) thing can muck up sensitivity.

Reply 5 of 11, by doaks80

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I use PS2 mice through a KVM and with PCs ranging from DOS to WinXP and don't notice any lag. They are relatively new HP/Dell optical mice and my only complaint is they are not "gaming" mice with a nice grippy feel for FPS, they are quite slippery and small.

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Reply 6 of 11, by SPBHM

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have you tried playing with "ps2rate"?

Reply 7 of 11, by Tiido

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SirNickity wrote:

Tiido -- that dead zone issue sounds like power management. A lot of opticals (especially cordless) will reduce polling the image sensor to save power. Once you move them, they "wake up" and scan the surface at a higher rate. Is that what you're talking about? I've always found them to be pretty responsive otherwise. I'm sure there's a movement threshold before they start sending X/Y to the PC -- just simple hysteresis to avoid jitter -- but I would figure that to be sub-pixel. My work mouse (cordless Logitech M310) seems to move about as smoothly as I can manage while still breaking surface tension between the desk and the plastic/rubber pads on the bottom of the mouse. This is under Gentoo Linux with KDE 5 -- could have something to do with acceleration settings as well...? I know the Windows "improve pointer responsiveness" (or whatever the option is called) thing can muck up sensitivity.

It might very well be some power saving related thing inside the mouse or jitter prevention mechanism, so nothing one will have control over. I run my mice at high sensitivity so that I can cover entire screen in few cm² area on the desk which will not help matters either.
The pointer precision enhanging option in Windows is black magic that makes the cursor steer towards nearby UI objects as you move the mouse, it isn't something one should keep enabled. Sensitivity slider when set to high end will lose precision (seen as cursor skipping pixels) on Windows ME, 2K, XP and newer. In 95/98/98SE there seems to be no such precision loss.

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜

Reply 8 of 11, by chinny22

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Interested in how does the USB mouse feel using a ps2 adapter?
I'm not going anywhere with this, just curious to see if it seems like the lag returns or not.

Reply 9 of 11, by Baoran

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chinny22 wrote:

Interested in how does the USB mouse feel using a ps2 adapter?
I'm not going anywhere with this, just curious to see if it seems like the lag returns or not.

If you mean those basic usb/ps2 adapters. I don't think they change anything because they require that the usb mouse supports ps/2 protocol in the first place.

Reply 10 of 11, by chinny22

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Baoran wrote:
chinny22 wrote:

Interested in how does the USB mouse feel using a ps2 adapter?
I'm not going anywhere with this, just curious to see if it seems like the lag returns or not.

If you mean those basic usb/ps2 adapters. I don't think they change anything because they require that the usb mouse supports ps/2 protocol in the first place.

Yeh that's why I'm interested, is the ps2 port thats the casue of the lag or just the older mice

Reply 11 of 11, by Tiido

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PS/2 is techically having lower latency than USB so it is quite unlikely the problem comes there. A mouse might have better PS/2 or USB support depending on how the MCU in them functions.

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜