VOGONS


Conserving Dallas RTC chips

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First post, by mkarcher

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Dallas RTC chips (like the DS1287, DS12887 and DS12887A) are widely used on vintage motherboards. They have a specified life of 10 years and generally are useless after 20 years of operation. But this only applies if the clock is actually running. The Dallas data sheet at https://pdfserv.maximintegrated.com/en/ds/DS1 … 5-DS12C887A.pdf indicates a significantly lower power consumption if the "clock is not running". It lists 500nA maximum for running clock at 25°C and 100nA maximum for stopped clock over the whole operating temperature range which is up to 70°C. At 25°C, the actual power consumption is very likely considerable lower. The datasheet also tells you how to stop the clock by writing the "divider select" bits in the clock control register A.

This actually works in practice. I ordered 4 Dallas DS12887A chips from China, and they arrived as New Old Stock with a date code from 97 or 98. I did not yet expect the battery to contain any significant voltage and immediately ground the plastic case to get access to the power wires. I was surprised to measure a Lithium cell voltage of 3.2 volts, which indicates a nearly unused cell. The chips work perfectly, despite of their age.

This means that one can significantly extend the lifetime of a Dallas RTC by powering the oscillator down, just as we parked hard drives in the 80s before moving a computer.

To create a program that is able to stop the clock, run debug at the DOS prompt and input the following lines. It will create a file called stoprtc.com, which can be run from the DOS prompt to stop the clock (you will not lose CMOS settings by that). You should turn off AC power after running STOPRTC, without running a shutdown procedure. Otherwise, the operating system or the BIOS might possibly turn the clock back on (e.g. when making sure the RTC alarm is correctly programmed for the next wake-up)

a100
mov al,8a
out 70,al
mov al,06
out 71,al
int 20

rcx
a
nstoprtc.com
w
q

Reply 1 of 25, by digger

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This is an interesting way to extend the life of those chips. Thanks for sharing this.

I wonder though: is there truly no way to replace these chips once they're no longer available? Are there perhaps other types of RTC chips still being manufactured that could be retrofitted as a replacement to the Dallas chip, perhaps with some glue logic? I know it would result in vintage systems no longer being in their 100% originally designed "state", but if it doesn't affact the performance or behavior of such systems, it would be better than nothing, right?

Reply 2 of 25, by wiretap

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I just order newly manufactured replacements off Digikey. They're around $10 and were made within the past year. I'm using one in my 486 and Pentium-S machine. No need to try to hunt Ebay for garbage Chinese old stuff.
Example: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/max … 2C887-ND/956875

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Reply 3 of 25, by cyclone3d

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The Glitch Works makes a replacement that uses a coin cell battery. Came across it the other day.

https://www.tindie.com/products/glitchwrks/gw … acement-module/

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Reply 5 of 25, by LunarG

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I have been pondering this very issue lately. Where to get more of these for the future.
It seems though, that these are still used for various things, so most likely will be made for years to come.
There are compaibles from Maxim, using the same model numbers, and also from TI under the name Benchmarq with model number BQ3287AMT-SB2.
I have checked their datasheets, and they are listed as drop in replacements.

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Reply 6 of 25, by mkarcher

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LunarG wrote:

There are compaibles from Maxim, using the same model numbers,

Minor nitpick: Maxim has acquired Dallas in 2001 and sells the original Dallas chips under the Maxim brand. They are not "just" third-party compatibles.

Reply 7 of 25, by LunarG

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mkarcher wrote:
LunarG wrote:

There are compaibles from Maxim, using the same model numbers,

Minor nitpick: Maxim has acquired Dallas in 2001 and sells the original Dallas chips under the Maxim brand. They are not "just" third-party compatibles.

Right, thanks for the info, I didn't know about Dallas being bought out. I don't really keep up to date on corporate mergers etc.
In my defence though, I never said "3rd party", just "compatibles", but yes, it could be inferred.

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Reply 8 of 25, by kixs

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LunarG wrote:
I have been pondering this very issue lately. Where to get more of these for the future. It seems though, that these are still u […]
Show full quote

I have been pondering this very issue lately. Where to get more of these for the future.
It seems though, that these are still used for various things, so most likely will be made for years to come.
There are compaibles from Maxim, using the same model numbers, and also from TI under the name Benchmarq with model number BQ3287AMT-SB2.
I have checked their datasheets, and they are listed as drop in replacements.

Two GA486AM/S boards. One uses Dallas DS12887, the other Benchmarq bq3287AMT

9g5A6R2m.jpg

The one with Benchmarq chip has lost power and I need to replace it. They seems to be a bit more expensive then DS12887 chips on Aliexpress. But if the photos are real you can get them manufactured from 2016 - this is like new 😉

Are DS12887 and DS12887+ also drop in replacements?

Requests are also possible... /msg kixs

Reply 9 of 25, by SirNickity

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I made an adapter PCB for my own boards using one of the SMT Maxim chips w/o integrated battery (thread: "Tick Tock"). Those should last as long as any other component on the board since the battery is a replaceable coin cell. If/when we run out of the new RTC ICs, ... it's not exactly a complicated device. A microcontroller could easily stand in for one, there's just no reason to bother reinventing that particular wheel right now since the RTC can still be had, new.

For that matter, you can still buy new replacement Maxim EDIP packages with the battery. But.... why would you do that to yourself?

Reply 10 of 25, by kixs

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kixs wrote:
Two GA486AM/S boards. One uses Dallas DS12887, the other Benchmarq bq3287AMT […]
Show full quote
LunarG wrote:
I have been pondering this very issue lately. Where to get more of these for the future. It seems though, that these are still u […]
Show full quote

I have been pondering this very issue lately. Where to get more of these for the future.
It seems though, that these are still used for various things, so most likely will be made for years to come.
There are compaibles from Maxim, using the same model numbers, and also from TI under the name Benchmarq with model number BQ3287AMT-SB2.
I have checked their datasheets, and they are listed as drop in replacements.

Two GA486AM/S boards. One uses Dallas DS12887, the other Benchmarq bq3287AMT

9g5A6R2m.jpg

The one with Benchmarq chip has lost power and I need to replace it. They seems to be a bit more expensive then DS12887 chips on Aliexpress. But if the photos are real you can get them manufactured from 2016 - this is like new 😉

Are DS12887 and DS12887+ also drop in replacements?

Got the Benchmarq bq3287AMT made in 2016. Replaced the old one and it works fine. Very happy it was socketed 😁

Requests are also possible... /msg kixs

Reply 11 of 25, by maxtherabbit

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wiretap wrote:

I just order newly manufactured replacements off Digikey. They're around $10 and were made within the past year. I'm using one in my 486 and Pentium-S machine. No need to try to hunt Ebay for garbage Chinese old stuff.
Example: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/max … 2C887-ND/956875

+1

Reply 12 of 25, by DNSDies

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Those new ones give you access to the VBatt pin as well, which allows you to use an external battery.
I had one of these RTCs on a Socket 7 board, and had to grind down the encapsulation to expose those pins and mod it with an external battery.
Pic related, not mine, but the same idea:
2009-10-10-dallas-battery-repair.jpg

Reply 13 of 25, by chinny22

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interesting! My very first PC from 95 still has it's original Dallas chip working well, and not really looking forward to the day I need to do the coin battery hack. If this puts that job off for another year or so I'm a happy chappy

Reply 14 of 25, by SirNickity

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I really can't understand why people still do this hack. They still manufacture drop-in replacements, and there are no shortage of DIY boards to adapt the equivalent external-battery package to that integrated-battery PDIP form factor. Why go to the trouble of mutilating a dead one when there are so many better options readily available? It doesn't make any sense.

Reply 15 of 25, by xjas

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^^ it does if you have a CR2032 holder lying around and are trying to spend $0.00 on a build (or don't want to have to wait 3 months shipping from China.) It'll work just as well, so what difference does it make? I always prefer to do a fix with what I have on hand rather than ordering something new.

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Reply 16 of 25, by maxtherabbit

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SirNickity wrote:

I really can't understand why people still do this hack. They still manufacture drop-in replacements, and there are no shortage of DIY boards to adapt the equivalent external-battery package to that integrated-battery PDIP form factor. Why go to the trouble of mutilating a dead one when there are so many better options readily available? It doesn't make any sense.

+1

Reply 17 of 25, by Tiido

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The replacements cost way too much money, so I'll just modify my RTC bricks with a socket which will not cost me anything.

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Reply 18 of 25, by Ozzuneoj

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I definitely intend to stop the RTC on any systems I have that use a Dallas chip, but my solution to replacing them was to simply buy a while bunch of them NOS on eBay. They ended up being from 2008 (all the same date codes so unlikely to be harvested old parts), definitely unused, and i paid around $1 each for them. Any I have used so far work perfectly. Going by the information in this thread stating that old ones keep their charge if unused, I think this is a great option. I can replace 20 Dallas chips with no modification for the price of one modern DIY replacement or two basically identical brand new chips from digikey.

Now for some blitting from the back buffer.

Reply 19 of 25, by artiemog

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SirNickity wrote:

I really can't understand why people still do this hack. They still manufacture drop-in replacements, and there are no shortage of DIY boards to adapt the equivalent external-battery package to that integrated-battery PDIP form factor. Why go to the trouble of mutilating a dead one when there are so many better options readily available? It doesn't make any sense.

I've seen some rumours floating around that the replacements aren't 100% compatible with all designs that used the old chips, so it may be paranoia. It also seems like a lot of people just aren't aware that the new chips exist, but information about the hack has circulated around a lot.

I found the replacement chip to be an excellent solution though. I got a DS12887+, which is Maxim's current replacement for the DS1287, and installed it on a 486SC-P Rev. D2 motherboard yesterday (along with a socket! Curse this cheap motherboard manufacturer for not socketing a chip with a battery inside...). Worked like a charm, first try. I will admit to being very careful while removing the old chip in case it turned out I would have to perform the hack, though.

Old chip:
zdlzJK7.png

New chip installed on the motherboard:
Jv01z22.png