Fun with CGL (Creative Graphics Library) on 3D Blaster

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Re: Fun with CGL (Creative Graphics Library) on 3D Blaster

Postby Stiletto » 2015-5-01 @ 18:27

vetz wrote:
Stiletto wrote:Supposedly this demoscene demo has CGL support, if any of you guys can test it.
"21st Century Digital Boy" by spanish lords
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=20512
see: http://www.pouet.net/prod_nfo.php?which=20512&font=none

[EDIT] Looks like pouet could do with video capture of this demo too...

It would be a good project to create the 3D Accelerated Demoscene Demos List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D/OpenGL) ;)
I think it might be fairly short, aside from that one Rendition RRedline competition.


So this demo does have CGL support for the last segment and it only supports the 3D Blaster PCI. I captured a video, but it's not a very impressive demo tbh.
http://youtu.be/rgXdINO2vBY
Fast forward to 3:05 if you want the accelerated CGL part.

Stiletto: Could you attach the video to Pouet if you have an account there?


I didn't, but I'd been thinking about getting one, so I got one.

PS. should there be music in the beginning? seems odd for it to be silent.
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do the Fandango!" - Queen

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Re: Fun with CGL (Creative Graphics Library) on 3D Blaster

Postby vetz » 2015-5-01 @ 19:32

Stiletto wrote:PS. should there be music in the beginning? seems odd for it to be silent.


Dont think there is.
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Re: Fun with CGL (Creative Graphics Library) on 3D Blaster

Postby Stiletto » 2015-5-03 @ 16:37

Okay, it's been added. :)
"I see a little silhouette-o of a man, Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you
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Re: Fun with CGL (Creative Graphics Library) on 3D Blaster

Postby vetz » 2016-2-21 @ 14:57

Some CGL tech demos for the 3D Blaster, acquired from an ex-Creative employee.

The DTDTEST is a dungeon 3D demo where you can activate lights which will light up the area around it. Can't remember what test.zip did, will report back when I got my 3D Blaster up and running again.
Attachments
test.zip
Another Tech demo for 3D Blaster
(478.8 KiB) Downloaded 27 times
DTDTEST.ZIP
Tech Demo 3D Blaster
(2.79 MiB) Downloaded 28 times
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Re: Fun with CGL (Creative Graphics Library) on 3D Blaster

Postby RichB93 » 2018-5-26 @ 11:38

Sorry to reply to such an old thread but I thought it better than cluttering the forum with yet another one... can CGL be used (or patched to be used) on Verite based non-Creative cards? And if so, could it then be further patched to use V2x00 cards as well, in the same fashion that V2DOSFIX can do for Verite compatible games? Apologies if this has already been asked before!
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Re: Fun with CGL (Creative Graphics Library) on 3D Blaster

Postby vetz » 2018-5-26 @ 12:20

RichB93 wrote:Sorry to reply to such an old thread but I thought it better than cluttering the forum with yet another one... can CGL be used (or patched to be used) on Verite based non-Creative cards? And if so, could it then be further patched to use V2x00 cards as well, in the same fashion that V2DOSFIX can do for Verite compatible games? Apologies if this has already been asked before!


No, you can't unfortunately. I have tested this before I got hand of a 3D Blaster PCI card.
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Re: Fun with CGL (Creative Graphics Library) on 3D Blaster

Postby RichB93 » 2018-5-26 @ 12:31

vetz wrote:
RichB93 wrote:Sorry to reply to such an old thread but I thought it better than cluttering the forum with yet another one... can CGL be used (or patched to be used) on Verite based non-Creative cards? And if so, could it then be further patched to use V2x00 cards as well, in the same fashion that V2DOSFIX can do for Verite compatible games? Apologies if this has already been asked before!


No, you can't unfortunately. I have tested this before I got hand of a 3D Blaster PCI card.


That's a bummer! I wonder what checks it does to make sure its running on a Creative card?
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Re: Fun with CGL (Creative Graphics Library) on 3D Blaster

Postby Gona » 2018-5-27 @ 06:45

RichB93 wrote:
vetz wrote:
RichB93 wrote:Sorry to reply to such an old thread but I thought it better than cluttering the forum with yet another one... can CGL be used (or patched to be used) on Verite based non-Creative cards? And if so, could it then be further patched to use V2x00 cards as well, in the same fashion that V2DOSFIX can do for Verite compatible games? Apologies if this has already been asked before!

No, you can't unfortunately. I have tested this before I got hand of a 3D Blaster PCI card.

That's a bummer! I wonder what checks it does to make sure its running on a Creative card?

CGL do not bios check. Earlier I have tried to run CGL games on V2200 and put a Creative Graphics Blaster card to the system too (I thinked that the CGL seek Creative video bios, and can find the Graphics Blaster bios), but without success. Later I have tried this with added 3D Blaster PCI as second card. CGL games are starts but the 3D screens are presented by 3D Blaster PCI not the non-Creative Vérité card. So with CGL API the 3D Blaster PCI can works as an add-in 3D accelerator card (like 3D Blaster VLB or Voodoo 1-2 but without pass-through VGA option you need a 2nd monitor or 2nd input on your monitor).
So CGL API do not video bios check but seek and find the card.
3D Blaster VLB is an add-in 3D accelerator card. Fatal Racing and Whiplash has patch/supports the 3D Blaster VLB and with the "VRITE170.CGL" file you can start the game on 3D Blaster PCI but at the game menu, monitor will goes to offline/no signal. This because, the menu comes after a 3D screen and the game "send back" the signal from 3D Blaster card to the videocard. I have tried that I booting with 3D Blaster PCI as primary and the another VGA is also presents as "secondary", but there is no menu of the Fatal Racing/Whiplash. With 3D Blaster PCI you can use Fatal Racing/Whiplash without problems if the 3D Blaster PCI is not the primary videocard and you have an other VGA card in the system that is primary.
This is a CGL specific thing, vQuake (Speedy3D API of the Vérité) can not start if the 3D Blaster PCI (or other Vérité card) is not primary.
CGL might seek the PCI ID, I don't know.
Last edited by Gona on 2019-8-18 @ 06:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fun with CGL (Creative Graphics Library) on 3D Blaster

Postby RaVeN-05 » 2019-1-30 @ 14:52

ok sorry for bumping old thread, have unrelative question about "21st Century Digital Boy"

Is there any list of demoscenes with API's support like vetz 3d acceleration thread?

i see:
CGL
21st Century Digital Boy

3dfx:
at pouet.net

s3d
i seen one demoscene

ATI 3d CIF:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jecJsjgZ7as

something like that exist at vogons or somewhere else?
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Re: Fun with CGL (Creative Graphics Library) on 3D Blaster

Postby Stiletto » 2019-1-30 @ 18:21

RaVeN-05 wrote:Is there any list of demoscenes with API's support like vetz 3d acceleration thread? ...
something like that exist at vogons or somewhere else?


I looked for one a few years ago but didn't find one. I think it might need to be created.
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Re: Fun with CGL (Creative Graphics Library) on 3D Blaster

Postby furan » 2019-7-23 @ 02:02

Reviving a dead thread.

From my disassembly it looks like with some games you can do:
set HOTCGL=mydriverfile.cgl
beforehand, and it will use that "creative hotlink" CGL binary (I guess they came up with their own form of DLL). Possibly this can also be a directory containing CGL files.
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Re: Fun with CGL (Creative Graphics Library) on 3D Blaster

Postby furan » 2019-7-23 @ 02:35

vetz wrote:Some CGL tech demos for the 3D Blaster, acquired from an ex-Creative employee.

The DTDTEST is a dungeon 3D demo where you can activate lights which will light up the area around it. Can't remember what test.zip did, will report back when I got my 3D Blaster up and running again.


You might realize this but these files contain CGL drivers for the Verite V1000 and the Laguna 3D.

"Strings" analysis of what these drivers support:
GIGTB170.CGL
CGL Revision 1.70 Release
: EAGLE REV 1.0
: EAGLE REV 2.0
: GLINT300SX REV 1.0
: C Simulator

PDLTB170.CGL
: PERMEDIA (DELTA) REV 1.0
: EAGLE REV 2.0
: GLINT300SX REV 1.0
: C Simulator
: PERMEDIA (DELTA) REV 2.0
: PERMEDIA (DELTA) REV 0.0

L3DTB170.CGL
CGL Revision 1.70 :
Cirrus Logic :
Insert Optional names Here
CL-GD5462 :
CL-GD5464 :

VRITB170.CGL
Verite CGL 1.70 beta 7

VRITE170.CGL
Verite CGL 1.70 beta 4

VRITI170.CGL
Verite CGL 1.70 beta 7

These CGL files are loaded using a custom dynamic-linking system Creative called (in the binaries) "Creative Hotlink 2." - I would like to disassemble the detection routine to try and get an idea of how they only allow the creative labs v1000, but I will need to get an in-memory, already loaded and "fixed-up" (relocated) copy of the binary.
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Re: Fun with CGL (Creative Graphics Library) on 3D Blaster

Postby Stiletto » 2019-7-23 @ 04:00

furan, thanks for posting this analysis - keep up the good work! :)
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Re: Fun with CGL (Creative Graphics Library) on 3D Blaster

Postby furan » 2019-7-23 @ 17:24

Stiletto wrote:furan, thanks for posting this analysis - keep up the good work! :)


Thanks!

It seems that both the PERMEDIA 1 and 2 datasheets reference CGL support with the following quote:
"The TVP4020 accelerates key consumer-focused 3-D APIs and drivers. The
TVP40x0 family of PERMEDIA processors is the reference port for many 3-D
drivers:
 Microsoft Direct3D
 OpenGL
 Creative Labs CGL
 Autodesk Heidi for 3D Studio MAX support"
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Re: Fun with CGL (Creative Graphics Library) on 3D Blaster

Postby RaVeN-05 » 2019-7-23 @ 20:43

Sorry for noob question. What that means? it means non Creative 3D Blaster cards can support CGL ?
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Re: Fun with CGL (Creative Graphics Library) on 3D Blaster

Postby furan » 2019-7-23 @ 21:19

- Possibly, the Glint 300SX PCI card can be made to work with these games.
- Probably the most interesting thing is that existing CGL-supporting games could support the Cirrus Logic GD-5446/Laguna3D.
- It's already been said that the CGL driver for Verite 1000 won't work on cards that aren't Creative Labs - I'm trying to look into what they use to detect that.
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Re: Fun with CGL (Creative Graphics Library) on 3D Blaster

Postby furan » 2019-7-24 @ 14:45

Note that we have no "driver" for the Permedia 1 and 2 cards, so even if it were a reference port for them, we'd have to find the .CGL file targeting those cards.
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Re: Fun with CGL (Creative Graphics Library) on 3D Blaster

Postby Gona » 2019-8-13 @ 21:19

furan wrote:From my disassembly it looks like with some games you can do:
set HOTCGL=mydriverfile.cgl
beforehand, and it will use that "creative hotlink" CGL binary (I guess they came up with their own form of DLL). Possibly this can also be a directory containing CGL files.

The environment variable "HOTCGL" not works if you try to use with filename (I have tried it), this works only if you set a directory.
Error message in BATTLE ARENA TOSHINDEN:
Cannot find the right .CGL files in "C:\TSD".
Copy these files in "C:\TSD" or specify the location setting the environment variable HOTCGL.
e.g. SET HOTCGL=C:\3DBLAST\DLL

So if you want to use more than one exact cgl file, put them separate directories and set this in bat files.
For example I put the 3D Blaster PCI (2D/3D card) and the 3D Blaster VLB (3D only add-on card) into the same computer and copy the CGL file like this:
C:\ASOCCER\VLB\GIGTB170.CGL
C:\ASOCCER\PCI\VRITB170.CGL
I could make batch files:

VLB.BAT
Code: Select all
SET HOTCGL=C:\ASOCCER\VLB

PCI.BAT
Code: Select all
SET HOTCGL=C:\ASOCCER\PCI

But some games and demos could works only with an exact hotcgl version, for example Actua Soccer and DTDTEST are not works for me with the latest VRITB170.CGL (CGL170IRT) "Verite CGL 1.70 beta 7" but works only with VRITB170.CGL (CGL170IRT) "Verite CGL 1.70 beta" (I think this is a "beta 1" because older). Because this, better if you put the needed CGL file into the game directory or using directories under the game directory. So using a "global" HOTCGL environment variable not the best.
(UPDATE: Later I have tested 3D Blaster PCI in a later PnP system and DTDTEST works with "Verite CGL 1.70 beta 7" cgl file too.)
I'm using 3D Blaster VLB and PCI in separate machines so I put the needed CGL file into the game directory (not subdirectory) and in this case HOTCGL environment variable not needed at all.

But for playing this things for this tests I but the 3D Blater VLB and PCI in to the same computer (test config 1: Socket 4 VLB/PCI motherboard based on OPTi Premium chipset with Pentium 60 CPU) and I have used 2 monitors (separate for the 3D Blaster VLB and PCI).
First I have tested Actua Soccer. If both the GIGTB170.CGL and VRITB170.CGL are present, the game will start with VRITB170.CGL, so on 3DB PCI. If I have moved the GIGTB170.CGL to a directory and set this directory with environment variable HOTCGL, the game has started with GIGTB170.CGL so with VLB. Than I have deleted the GIGTB170.CGL file from the directory setted by HOTCGL but sill left the VRITB170.CGL in the game directory and the game started in software mode ("No 3D Blater detected - running in software mode").
So if you use the environment variable HOTCGL, this will be an exclusive, only one path without fallback.
Later tests I have used environment variable HOTCGL, a directory with only one CGL file.

furan wrote:Note that we have no "driver" for the Permedia 1 and 2 cards, so even if it were a reference port for them, we'd have to find the .CGL file targeting those cards.

Only we have a DOS driver for 3D Blaster VLB (INIT3D.EXE), but I have tried Actua Soccer and works with 3DB VLB without loaded driver too. So the CGL files can be enough, no other drivers are needed (3DB PCI also have no DOS driver and CGL API works).

PDLTB170.CGL
Than I have removed 3D Blaster cards, I have put my Glint 300SX PCI card to the test system, I have removed CGL files, and copyad the PDLTB170.CGL file ("CGL Revision 1.70 : PERMEDIA (DELTA) REV 1.0 : EAGLE REV 2.0 : GLINT300SX REV 1.0 : C Simulator : PERMEDIA (DELTA) REV 2.0 : PERMEDIA (DELTA) REV 0.0") into my HOTCGL directory, than try to start Actua Soccer, but "No 3D Blater detected".
I have tried to start the DTDTEST (both test.exe files) in CGL mode too (note that DTDTEST will start in software mode by default, for CGL mode you need to use cgl switch
Code: Select all
test.exe -cgl
), but the same result "Error #699 loading CGL modules.".
Because PDLTB170.CGL has some lines that the same with GIGTB170.CGL lines, I have tried PDLTB170.CGL with 3D Blaster VLB by Actua Soccer without success "No 3D Blater detected".
Than I have to tried my Permedia1 card (by PowerColor), but nothing ("No 3D Blater detected" and "Error #699 loading CGL modules.") but this card has no Glint Delta chip as the Creative engeneering sample Permedia1 card. Diamond Fire GL 1000 card has also Glint Delta chip too, but I don't have that card, and I think that also not works because I think this CGL file also see if the card is Creative card or not...
I have tested my Permedia2 card (by ELSA), but nothing ("No 3D Blater detected" and "Error #699 loading CGL modules."). I have no Permedia2 card made by Creative.

L3DTB170.CGL
But I have a Creative CL-GD5464 card: Graphics Blaster MA334 (CT6381), and a Creative CL-GD5465 Graphics Blaster Eclipse (CT6510), so I have tried this with L3DTB170.CGL file (CGL Revision 1.70 : Cirrus Logic : CL-GD5462 : CL-GD5464).
Creative CL-GD5465 card with Actua Soccer and DTDTEST do the same things as all other not supported cards,
but with Creative CL-GD564 card Actua Soccer gives dark screen and DTDTEST exe files are crash, so CGL has tried to start.
Then I have moved Creative CL-GD564 card to a later (period correct) PnP Pentium PCI motherboard (test config 2: Intel TC430HX with Pentium 100 CPU), then I have tried L3DTB170.CGL with the Creative CL-GD564 card by DTDTEST. It has started! But the picture was not clear, it was "ghosted", noised.
I have tested Actue soccer (SOC3DB.EXE) too. This also has started, but looks like in software mode.
I have tried to find other game which uses CGL files.
I have found that Rebel Moon - 3D Blater PCI version - also can use CGL files.
This also can start with L3DTB170.CGL file on Creative CL-GD564 card, but looks like a software mode game (note that Rebel Moon has no batch or switch to start it in software mode).
Pictures:
Rebel_Moon_(3D_Blaster_PCI_version)_on_3D_Blaster_PCI.PNG
Rebel Moon (3D Blaster PCI version) on 3D Blaster PCI

Rebel_Moon_(3D_Blaster_PCI_version)_on_Graphics_Blaster_MA334.PNG
Rebel Moon (3D Blaster PCI version) on Graphics Blaster MA334
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Re: Fun with CGL (Creative Graphics Library) on 3D Blaster

Postby vetz » 2019-8-15 @ 07:59

WoW! This is a new discovery! Nice work Gona!

Do you have more games you can test on the Creative CL-GD5464? I believe Fatal Racing/Whiplash, Screamer II and Battle Arena Toshinden can be tested as they have separate .CGL files. I don't think the card supports bilinear filtering so I'd expect it to look exactly like software mode (just like the 3D Blaster VLB)
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