VOGONS


First post, by RockmanZ3R0

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So some backstory, I inherited an old gateway from a coworkers outdoor garage. Obviously had some strong doubts it would even work but after scrubbing some mold off the chassis and just other debris. Powered it on and much to my surprise it worked! However, 3 days later after internal components got nice and warm it just outright failed. I expected that but obviously was sad at the loss of a 98 gaming PC.
After practically replacing all the internal cards I had it pointed out to me that a cap was leaking somewhere on the motherboard and one was bulging. I have no soldering tools, no experience and so forth.

While it was running and based on the obvious, I was able to glean this information:

Computer: Gateway lp mini tower tb3 essential 700
OS: WIndows 98SE
Video: NVIDIA TNT2 64 AGP video card ---- I bought a ATI Radeon 9200 to replace it during the troubleshooting
Memory: 384MB ram, unsure of what kind.
Processing: Pentium 3 700mhz (unsure of generation, build)
DISK: 10gb hard drive (works perfectly fine)
Iomega zip drive (Untested)
3.5" 1.44 HD Floppy (Does not work even with freshly lubed rail and cleaned head)
Some generic sound card which also has a cable leading to a DVD ROM drive.
I also bought a new, old stock power supply. Everything is IDE/EIDE.

So here is my dilemma,

I cannot decide if I should try and replace the motherboard or if I should scrap the tower and take the parts and put them into a new tower with a new motherboard.
The chassis on the gateway has some rust issues that I need to resolve and frankly, dont feel is worth it to try and restore 🤷 I also cannot figure out what motherboard this thing used to replace it. Even if I do replace it, surely being almost 20 years old it would likely suffer the same fate with the caps unless someone with the skills and tools had already replaced them and refurbished it.

If you all think I should just start new with a new case and hopefully, newer motherboard... What are my options? Diving into forums and youtube and the like I realized I have no clue what I am doing heh.
If I choose the new motherboard route, surely I can use the processor in the gateway? What about trying to be more modern despite wanting a 98/DOS gaming computer thats era correct and going with SATA? Is it hard to find a SATA board that also supports a P3 and AGP video? Does any of this make sense?

Reply 1 of 31, by dionb

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Why all the "unsure"? You have the hardware. Open up the case and get part numbers/model names etc to get sure. That would make it a lot easier to answer your main question...

- memory: look at the model numbers of the chips. That plus number of chips on a DIMM tells you everything you need to know.
- CPU: if slot, you should be able to see the info with the all-important SL-code on the top of the slot cartridge. If socketed, remove the heatsink and it's on the PGA package around the CPU core in full view. At the very least, check whether it's a slot or socket model.
- 10GB HDD: should have a sticker with brand, model etc
- ZIP drive: could be IDE or ATAPI (yes, two different types that behave differently, ATAPI is much more common), see sticker
- "generic sound card" undoubtedly has some info on it, at the very least check which chip(s) it has.
- NOS power supply might also be a problem. In any event it has a brand & model number
- motherboard is probably OEM, but guess what, there's info to be found on those things too. Find a model number and google it.

Can't judge the case without pics. Rust is nothing that usually can't be solved with Coca Cola or similar acids.

As for the caps - if you want to get into hardware this old, things will get more and more difficult (and expensive) if you don't get some basic skills around replacing caps. It's not rocket science. You can get away with a cheap-ish soldering iron (good 2nd hand is preferable over new crap), some thin leaded solder and a bit of flux. That's all you need to desolder the old caps and put in new ones. Any local electronics store should stock replacement parts, just go for the same specs (voltage, capacitance, pin distance) as the original ones and specify "low ESR" if asked in any more detail. No local store? All the big online places stock this sort of stuff. What works best depends on where you live, here in NL I prefer German company Reichelt for medium-sized orders, but there's a small local place with low shipping costs that's better if you really only need a handful of bits.

A "new" motherboard might work, but first you need to know what your're replacing. If it's regular ATX with regular power and front panel connectors, pretty much anything will work. If not, your choices may be limted, and by the time you've bought a new case, PSU, motherboard and video card, you're basically talking about a different system anyway.

As for Windows 98/DOS, the big question is what games/programs do you want to run? A P3-700 is VERY fast for DOS, but can be slowed down (lower FSB, disable caches etc) run most mid-1990s DOS stuff; early 1990s and 198s games will generally run too fast. Conversely, a P3-700 is fully capable of running Win98 games from 1998-2000, but after that the CPU will be quite anaemic. If you want mid 1990s DOS and late 1990s Windows games, this system would be fine. If you want more you may have a challenge covering all bases with a single system.

For DOS, the sound card is critical. DOS doesn't really have a concept of 'drivers', games address the hardware directly and so the cards need hardware compatibility with the games. If not, software (TSRs) can be used to emulate supported hardware, but at best it slows the system down and at worst you get problems with free conventional memory and compatibility. Bottom line is that you want an ISA (*NOT* PCI, unless you have PC/PCI/SBLink, which is another complicating technology) sound card with full (hardware) Soundblaster compatibility. Beyond that it's a matter of which games/era you're looking at, and how far down the rabbit hole you want to go. Given you're just starting on this journey. I'd recommend making sure you have Soundblaster Pro 2.0 compatibility, and leaving it at that until you have that working fully and you understand its limitations and what other options are available. It's entirely possible that that "generic sound card" already gives you this - but we'd need more info to be able to tell you that for sure.

SATA for P3 is simple: no P3 motherboard has native SATA as the last P3 motherboards are a few years older than the first SATA controllers. You could use a SATA controller card with a P3 (indeed I do exactly that) but be aware that there are both PCI bus revision and OS limitations. The only safe bet for Win98SE on any P3 board and SATA are the Promise SATA150TX2Plus and SATA150TX4 cards. Installing OS on them requires having a driver disk, so isn't that simple, particularly if your 3.5" drive is broken. A SATA SSD is the fastest storage you can use with a P3, but getting it working isn't elementary (OS drivers, partitioning on a modern system for correct sector alignment etc) and given your level of knowledge and experience, I'd recommend against it. Just go with that 10GB HDD, or if you want solid state, get a CF-card adapter.

Reply 2 of 31, by ykot

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Maybe you could post some pictures of the case, motherboard and the rest of components?

RockmanZ3R0 wrote on 2020-06-30, 14:53:

The chassis on the gateway has some rust issues that I need to resolve and frankly, dont feel is worth it to try and restore

The rust can be easily removed by bathing the case (only metallic parts) in vinegar, then washing thoroughly with water. Alternatively, you can use car polish to rub rusty parts.

I personally find that old cases are generally much better built and are much more resistant/robust than new ones, so it may actually be more worthwhile to restore old case rather than get a new one. I've recently bought a smallest ATX case I could find from Amazon for a Pentium 3 build, it was "Ackteck" brand or so - the walls are so thin like made of paper and most of the screw holes were already stripped when I first unscrewed the case. There are higher quality cases but they are either weird-shaped (e.g. for Mini-ITX builds) or quite large. Furthermore, depending on your motherboard, you'll either not use at all or require an adapter from the case USB 3 connectors. Some newer higher-quality cases don't come with 3'' or 5'' bays so you won't be able to accommodate floppy and/or CD-ROM drives in there.

Edit: Another part that I find excruciatingly annoying in the new high-quality cases is that many come with ventilation holes on top (usually for water cooling or extra fans) - this allows dust to come down and settle inside the case when not used and, more importantly, makes all internals vulnerable to any kind of spillages (water, coca cola, juice, beer, solder flux, chemicals, etc.) as well as rain if the case is near open window in the house.

Reply 3 of 31, by EvieSigma

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I have a working Gateway Slot 1 P3 motherboard with 384MB of RAM and currently a 650MHz CPU, so if your CPU is Slot 1 you'd be able to use it easily. I upgraded the machine it came out of to a Socket 370 board with 512MB of RAM and a 1GHz P3.

Reply 4 of 31, by RockmanZ3R0

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You have my apologies for the vagueness. I wrote the original post in a hurry.

It is ,
Hyundai PC133 CL3 168-pin DIMM SDRAM -- HYM7V631601BTFG-75-A
700/256/100 processor with heatsink -- Intel Pentium 3 700MHz SLOT CPU 100MHz FSB SL3S9
The motherboard is an Intel E205351.
The sound card is a Creative Labs CT5806 PCI, 4001051201.

I have priced out kits from amazon for a solder iron that includes wick and other tools for fairly cheap. DigiKey seems to have some cheap capacitors I could replace the ones on the board with.

When it comes to some DOS games the most I was thinking was some good ol' Wolfenstien 3D, Spear of destiny, Jill of the Jungle and Commander Keen. I had already installed was playing some Unreal Tournament before it gave out on me. Ran quite well!

Reply 5 of 31, by fitzpatr

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I'm not seeing anything in here about the PSU. I see NOS, but that doesn't mean anything at this age. The leaky/bulged capacitors on the motherboard need to be replaced, but don't discount the PSU as the primary problem unless it is definitely working in another machine!

Anything modern should be suitable to test. It is ATX in all likelihood, so get one out of a working machine, restore to the original config, and try it out.

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Reply 6 of 31, by RockmanZ3R0

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I very much appreciate all the help you guys have given me. I am in the process of ordering a soldering iron and the capacitors to do the job myself. In the long run as Diondb pointed out, it will save me more money and it should be easy enough to do.
There are only about 5 capacitors that look questionable on the board and 3 others that looks fine. That's pretty much all the caps on the board. So I am going to just replace them all and be done with it. I know I could just only do the suspect ones but starting with fresh caps surely cannot hurt.
The main caps inside are 3300µF 10V and a smaller one I have to remove the CPU to figure out what it's rated at. 😜 Lucky me all the info is literally on the side I cannot see. I am fortunate that the Mobo also has convenient markings for polarity too.

I will update as I can but, ya know how shipping times are these days so it may be a few weeks before I can say anything. The plus side is once I have the tools (and skill built up) I could even try and venture into getting something like a Commodore 64 and not have to worry so much about not being able to repair it.

Reply 7 of 31, by RockmanZ3R0

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Here is another stupid question. I am trying to remove the processor to see what rating the smaller blue capacitors are so I don't order the wrong thing. The problem is that all the YouTube videos Ive seen show clips and other designs of slot1 that I do not have and therefore for the life of me cannot figure out how to detach the darn thing short of trying to brute force it out/wiggle. Any thoughts. Pic attached.

Side note you can also see all the capacitors that the board has in the small cluster. These are what I am planning to replace. You can also see the rust I am also needing to work on. I have some rust remover I will use once I get the motherboard out to replace the caps.

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Reply 11 of 31, by RockmanZ3R0

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It's moments like this I feel completely stupid and useless. The black tabs don't seem to do anything and are solid with the base. I wondered if maybe the screws needed to come out and the whole assembly just came o ff instead. Nothing. So I tried to be smart, bypass this and just remove the whole gosh darn motherboard from the tower and see if I can find out that way.

Heh...I unscrewed all that I could. Unplugged all the cables and gave a tug. The board lifts on an angle, but will not come out, it's like its completely attached at another point I cannot see near the ports. The ports are getting bent trying to remove it and I am at a loss as to why this is.

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Reply 12 of 31, by hwh

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Heh, finally someone whose stuff is as messed up as mine 🙁

Don't force anything. Wiggling doesn't hurt though.

I'm not familliar with Slot 1; but it likely has some kind of catch holding it in somehow. I just checked a PII slot 1 I have and that one (in addition to being mysteriously affixed) has little spring loaded tabs you push in while presumably somehow pulling on the rest of the thing. Note, your PIII does not have that. The rusty conditions probably add a few pounds of force. I would try bracing the board where it flexes when you try to pull it out.

Reply 13 of 31, by Tetrium

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RockmanZ3R0 wrote on 2020-07-01, 22:37:

It's moments like this I feel completely stupid and useless. The black tabs don't seem to do anything and are solid with the base. I wondered if maybe the screws needed to come out and the whole assembly just came o ff instead. Nothing. So I tried to be smart, bypass this and just remove the whole gosh darn motherboard from the tower and see if I can find out that way.

Heh...I unscrewed all that I could. Unplugged all the cables and gave a tug. The board lifts on an angle, but will not come out, it's like its completely attached at another point I cannot see near the ports. The ports are getting bent trying to remove it and I am at a loss as to why this is.

This is usually because you either missed a screw (happened to me plenty of times) or because the motherboard is wedged stuck somewhere along the edge.
Wiggling it around a bit will help you pinpoint exactly where the board is stuck and if you can actually turn the board a little bit it would usually be a single screw that somehow isn't cooperating.
You definitely don't want to use (too much) force, try to at least keep the motherboard from bending as much as you can.

I've had it happen at least a couple times that the board ended up having gotten stuck due to the io shield, though yours looks like it is some kind of metal mesh fabric kinda stuff?

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Reply 14 of 31, by evasive

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you need to undo the nuts from the ports themselves most likely at the back of the unit. Only later they made things such that you slide it out with nuts and all.

Reply 15 of 31, by RockmanZ3R0

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evasive wrote on 2020-07-02, 21:04:

you need to undo the nuts from the ports themselves most likely at the back of the unit. Only later they made things such that you slide it out with nuts and all.

Are you referring to these?

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Reply 17 of 31, by RockmanZ3R0

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That was the ticket. With them gone it lifted out of the case with no issues. Now all I need is to verify some of the caps ratings and order away. Thank you!

I grew up with a Windows 3.1 that used 3DMenu, and a 98 in the house but I never opened them up and messed around...nor did I ever really understand how things worked, I just liked playing games 🤣. I have a whole new appreciation for these computers, what was achieved with the limitations at the time and the people who repaired them on a regular basis.

Reply 19 of 31, by PC Hoarder Patrol

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If at some point you need to remove the processor, the technique for your board is slightly different as it's fitted with the newer Grounded Retention Mechanism which is only designed for SECC2 Slot 1 heatsinks like these

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Normally the bottom lug (below the marked red lines) snaps into the black end pieces (the GRM) and you may need to rock the processor slightly front to back to clear this lock for removal.