Scali wrote:

James-F wrote:

By my book, it is another black point to the SBPro1 CT1330A, its basically useless in a Pentium. 😵

Yup, from a practical point-of-view it is. But it really is just a software problem, not a hardware problem. And it can be fixed. I've patched the broken code in the Crystal Dream demo, for example.

What I really want to know is why there are so few threads about this OPL2 speed sensitivity issue especially with Pentium machines.
It seems that the CT1330A getting ridiculously expensive on ebay (not to mention Adlib), yet at the same time it has been revealed that it is actually nothing special on the DSP side and broken on the FM side on anything faster than a 486 with most games.
Most people do not have the skills to hex-edit the game to fix the issue that causes this, that is why in my opinion it should be viewed as a hardware compatibility issue.

I expected someone to share this knowledge before suggesting a ridiculously expensive SB 1.0/2.0/Pro1 to someone building a Pentium retro machine.
I surely did not know about this issue with the OPL2/YM3812 two weeks ago when I received my SB 2.0 and tested it... I thought it was broken. 😐

I think it's because most to the sensible thing and use it in a 386 type machine 😊

The other theory is that, take me for example, these older cards just get stored away and we use other, less valuable cards, for actual use?

PhilsComputerLab wrote:

I think it's because most to the sensible thing and use it in a 386 type machine 😊

Sensible yes, practical I think not. 🤣
The most common built retro machine is indeed a Socket 7 Pentium/AMD/Cyrix..

The other theory is that, take me for example, these older cards just get stored away and we use other, less valuable cards, for actual use?

Maybe, but one should at least get a taste of the real deal for the sake of nostalgia and the good ol' times, even if there is a period mismatch between the CPU and sound card.
But one should be aware of the shortcomings of the hardware and not shed 300 euros only to find out that the card is freaking useless on his one and only retro rig. 😀

Yea I see this whole thing differently.

From the builds I've seen, most pick reasonably era matching parts. I don't think I've seen (m)any builds that use a Sound Blaster 1.5 or 2.0 in a Socket 7 machine. To me it's such a miss-match. I don't see those cards getting recommended either when one asks about building a Super Socket 7 machine. So at least we aren't misleading anyone I think.

Sometimes when we're deep in projects we forget the most obvious things. Using parts destined for 286 and 386 machines in a Pentium is one of them 😀

James-F wrote:

What I really want to know is why there are so few threads about this OPL2 speed sensitivity issue especially with Pentium machines.

All hardware is "speed-sensitive" to a certain degree.
Push commands faster than the chip can handle, and things break.
The AdLib programming manual has an accurate description of how much delay you would need, and has a suggestion for how to build in such a delay (which I believe would still work on Pentiums and faster machines, since it should rely on the hardware handshaking, and therefore not be speed-sensitive at all, although I only have OPL3 cards, so I cannot test it myself).
The problem is that some programmers got creative and made their own delay routines, which were speed-sensitive. Of course the problem has 'solved' itself, because although faster CPUs keep coming out, we can no longer put ISA cards in these systems (unless... perhaps there's some hobby project somewhere that puts an ISA breakout box on a PCI-e or USB connection?). So the fastest possible ISA system is 'fixed' now, and perhaps some cards work in all cases, even with the most broken delay loops out there.
But in theory all systems will suffer from this issue.

I'm with Phil on this... If you are running software where the music routine is too fast for your AdLib to handle, that is probably the least of your worries. The system is way too fast for other things as well, and games will likely break in various other ways as well. Many late 80s/early 90s games are very speed-sensitive anyway (try playing Test Drive 3, probably the worst out there).
If you want an AdLib, use a machine from the proper era.

I've noticed this problem back in the day already. I got my Sound Blaster Pro 2.0 back when I had a 386SX-16, and I kept it when I upgraded to a 486 and Pentium. Once I got a Pentium II, most software, including even the Windows drivers, fell apart. So I had to get a newer soundcard. I guess at that point I officially started 'retro-computing', in the sense that I deliberately kept my older computer in working condition because it could run software that my newer PC could not.

ok, what does it all basically mean

do I need to change sound card and if so what would be best for my machine

Robhalfordfan wrote:

ok, what does it al basically mean

do I need to change sound card and if so what would be best for my machine

Two options:
1) Keep the card, use it in a slower machine
2) Replace it with a clone that works better in a Pentium machine (eg an ESS AudioDrive)

ok what other clone cards would there be as I am not 100% sure about what a good one form that era and how can I tell what's a clone card and what isn't

so far most of the games I have thrown at it work no problems with sound or speed other than the ones mention in first post

Scali wrote:

Two options: 1) Keep the card, use it in a slower machine 2) Replace it with a clone that works better in a Pentium machine (eg […]
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Robhalfordfan wrote:

ok, what does it al basically mean

do I need to change sound card and if so what would be best for my machine

Two options:
1) Keep the card, use it in a slower machine
2) Replace it with a clone that works better in a Pentium machine (eg an ESS AudioDrive)

I will keep it as I have a 386 pc but still need get parts like a new i/o card (difficult to find) and a new dallas real time clock (even more hard to find) and a few things to get it up and running

Robhalfordfan wrote:

ok what other clone cards would there be as I am not 100% sure about what a good one form that era and how can I tell what's a clone card and what isn't

so far most of the games I have thrown at it work no problems with sound or speed other than the ones mention in first post

Gerwin has a list of ISA sound chipsets here:
Sound cards - from best to worst

James-F has done quite a lot of work comparing the sound characteristics of different cards and came up with a modification of the Yamaha Audician 32 which makes it a very close match to the SB Pro 2.0. If you just want a replacement, that might be a good way to go.

Beyond that, there's a whole host of options, some straight up inferior and others with particular strengths. If you can outline some of your priorities as far as software and system support, I believe we can help narrow down your options.

I am after a sound card that will work have next to no issues with excellent/good quality (8-bit/16-bit or midi/fm music) that is compatible and have drivers for dos 6.22/windows 3.11 and windows 95 and will work perfect or close to it with a Pentium 1 133mhz processor - it could be an isa card or a pci card as my motherboard accepts both and just cover all areas if compatably with graphics card is gonna be an issue - I have a s3 virge/dx 4mb card

it mainly a retro games machine

not sure if there is anything I am missing

Any particular DOS titles you want to run? Interested in MOD tracking / MOD scene stuff at all?

all games basically

I can play the classics like doom 1 + 2 and final doom, Wolfenstein 3d, quake 1 and also most Apogee games and play fmv games like phantasmagoria 1 + 2 (hoping to get more at some point 🤣) and a game I love since was a kid which is titanic adventure of time, so mostly early to mid 90s games but would also like play mid to late 80s games on my Pentium for time being, which my 386 should be ok (whenever I get that up and running 🤣) and also have a separate pc with 1ghz processor for win98 to xp era

I heard of it but don't know much about mod scene (unless you mean like quadrophenia 🤣 only joking) and I thought mod tracking was more an amiga thing (which I also have an amiga)

Robhalfordfan wrote:

I heard of it but don't know much about mod scene (unless you mean like quadrophenia 🤣 only joking) and I thought mod tracking was more an amiga thing (which I also have an amiga)

Well yes, 'mod' refers to the filename prefix (not extension) of the sound module format originally introduced with NoiseTracker on Amiga. Later evolved into ProTracker.
However, the quality and versatility of mod music made it popular on other platforms as well, including PCs. So in the early 90s you'd first get clones of NoiseTracker/ProTracker on PC, and as CPUs and sound cards became more powerful, the tracker format evolved on PC, adding more channels, 16-bit audio and more effects, in trackers such as Scream Tracker 3, FastTracker II and Impulse Tracker.
If you want to use such trackers, then the Gravis UltraSound is a very interesting soundcard. It has 32-channel hardware mixing, and was well supported by trackers of that era.

Scali wrote:

Well yes, 'mod' refers to the filename prefix (not extension) of the sound module format originally introduced with NoiseTracker […]
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Robhalfordfan wrote:

I heard of it but don't know much about mod scene (unless you mean like quadrophenia 🤣 only joking) and I thought mod tracking was more an amiga thing (which I also have an amiga)

Well yes, 'mod' refers to the filename prefix (not extension) of the sound module format originally introduced with NoiseTracker on Amiga. Later evolved into ProTracker.
However, the quality and versatility of mod music made it popular on other platforms as well, including PCs. So in the early 90s you'd first get clones of NoiseTracker/ProTracker on PC, and as CPUs and sound cards became more powerful, the tracker format evolved on PC, adding more channels, 16-bit audio and more effects, in trackers such as Scream Tracker 3, FastTracker II and Impulse Tracker.
If you want to use such trackers, then the Gravis UltraSound is a very interesting soundcard. It has 32-channel hardware mixing, and was well supported by trackers of that era.

what is the benefits of mod music

Robhalfordfan wrote:

what is the benefits of mod music

It is sample-based, so you could use any kind of instrument or sound-effect in the music. Which was a big step up from the low-end synthesizer chips that were being used in computers. Just listen to some mod music, and it should be self-explanatory.
For example, this is generally considered one of the best 4-channel mods ever made on Amiga: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thnXzUFJnfQ
You'll never get that kind of rich and varied music out of an OPL2 or OPL3 chip.

Scali wrote:

It is sample-based, so you could use any kind of instrument or sound-effect in the music. Which was a big step up from the low-e […]
Show full quote

Robhalfordfan wrote:

what is the benefits of mod music

It is sample-based, so you could use any kind of instrument or sound-effect in the music. Which was a big step up from the low-end synthesizer chips that were being used in computers. Just listen to some mod music, and it should be self-explanatory.
For example, this is generally considered one of the best 4-channel mods ever made on Amiga: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thnXzUFJnfQ
You'll never get that kind of rich and varied music out of an OPL2 or OPL3 chip.

Certainly not without moving to more expensive synthesizers that support programmable samples. I'm also not entirely sure when those first came on the market.

gdjacobs wrote:

Certainly not without moving to more expensive synthesizers that support programmable samples. I'm also not entirely sure when those first came on the market.

Inb4 someone argues that there's a trick to play samples on OPL2/OPL3, allowing for mod replay with software mixing 😀

think that sounds like its going to a different area for dos/windows retro gaming

if it like a midi recording using a keyboard etc - I going to doing that on my amiga cause I like the sound the amiga has

I think I am trying to find a decent sound card that a my Pentium can handle with no problems and can handle any game etc

I was referring to this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampler_%28musi … l_instrument%29
Does many of the same things as a tracker, but the tracker does it virtually for free. Later pro synths began integrating the same functionality along with the built-in sample ROM and expansion cards.

I personally use two ISA sound cards including an SB16 Value, but it can take some testing and tweaking to find an SB16 card that is quiet enough, and you can't be bothered much by the single cycle DMA glitches. For a reliable initial setup, I'd try either an Audician 32 or an ESS card. Either one sounds good, supports unglitched MIDI, has good FM support (ESS is a good quality clone; Audician is a newer version of what's in the SB Pro 2.0, genuine from Yamaha), and works well in DOS. In short, both are more known quantities which will give you a more sure result.