mrau wrote:

Jade Falcon wrote:

mrau wrote:

that s not even an answer to what i said; also air is most often used as coolant, hence it must be an even better coolant than mineral oil;

And Toyota is the most used car there for its the best car... 🤣
Air is the most used method for cooling as it cheap, easy and gets the job done.

i would kindly ask that you first understand the conversation and then comment;

Not sure what you're getting at. The conversation was derailed for the last few posts.

Does anyone have any information indicating that K6-2+/K6-III+ chips are thermally limited?

gdjacobs wrote:

Not sure what you're getting at. The conversation was derailed for the last few posts.

not sure that changes anything; also you conveniently cut the conversation in such a place as not to show the obvious ignorance in the posts directed to me, therefore proving that you do actually understand pretty well;

I didn't know this would be a topic of interest here but I'll add... I have delidded many (modern) CPUs, it's really not that hard but it is risky. Some CPUs have a soldered on heat spreader which is a bit more of a chore to get off (I have no idea about the K6). This is done purely to get a better thermal contact with the heat spreader, and then the heat sink. You could also look into lapping the lid (basically wet sanding) to make a smoother surface for a better contact with your heatsink. In my experience this has dropped temps further than delidding and adding new thermal under the hood.

With that explained, doing any of the above is NOT going to make your overclock work if the system is failing to post or boot. It's to keep the heat down below the maximum spec the CPU was designed to handle, which is usually an issue while overvolting AND loading the CPU in a stress test, game, etc. So I'm just adding this to agree with the previous posters, delidding isn't going to get you a higher overclock, it will keep your CPU from overheating under load, no more no less. I skimmed over the comments on air vs mineral water, but I think we could all agree that neither method will ever get you sub ambient, so at the extreme both can be considered equal and you might as well start getting into dry ice pot runs or LN2 extreme overclocking.

You could always shop around for bulk k-6 cpus and try your luck, this is called binning, maybe you'll find a gem that can handle a mean OC! Though honestly I'd think your bus is is going to severely negate this on these old boards 😊. I wouldn't bother going for a huge 24/7 overclock on these, unless you're just looking to do suicide runs to see how high you can get the number.

This isn't worth it at all for a K6 of any kind except for fun when doing it to a dead one but as far as overclocking goes these are already close to their limits anyway. Delidding modern procs that only have bird shit for compound instead of metal alloy is worth it however just be realistic when it comes to max clocks.

I am sure I did read a few times of people overclocking the K6 3+ that they said delid and copper cooler did help a lot.
But it also does look like the limit with cache 3 on is 115-120fsb

But look at this 😵 Level 3 enabled 😵
https://hwbot.org/submission/2978303_strunken … 0mhz_800.94_mhz

mrau wrote:

not sure that changes anything; also you conveniently cut the conversation in such a place as not to show the obvious ignorance in the posts directed to me, therefore proving that you do actually understand pretty well;

The original thread was about delidding the K6 series chips. That discussion left off with some people suggesting it might not be worth it. If the core isn't thermally limited, better cooling is irrelevant.

If you want to get into a discussion on air vs water vs mineral oil cooling, wouldn't it make sense to open another thread?

gdjacobs wrote:

mrau wrote:

not sure that changes anything; also you conveniently cut the conversation in such a place as not to show the obvious ignorance in the posts directed to me, therefore proving that you do actually understand pretty well;

The original thread was about delidding the K6 series chips. That discussion left off with some people suggesting it might not be worth it. If the core isn't thermally limited, better cooling is irrelevant.

you see it as a thread on delidding, i see it as a thread on advanced cooling;
also does not change the fact that when i ask about sth mentioned in this thread and i get thrown p00p at i either ignore completely, which does not help me get the information i was asking for, or i can point out and get even more p00p thrown at me because im not part of the local" lick each others balls" group. i fail to see how my being specific about what i ask and get in return is a bad thing except maybe for the fact that i squeezed someones tail;

Guys we are all friends 😊 😀

Skalabala wrote:

I am sure I did read a few times of people overclocking the K6 3+ that they said delid and copper cooler did help a lot. But it […]
Show full quote

I am sure I did read a few times of people overclocking the K6 3+ that they said delid and copper cooler did help a lot.
But it also does look like the limit with cache 3 on is 115-120fsb

But look at this 😵 Level 3 enabled 😵
https://hwbot.org/submission/2978303_strunken … 0mhz_800.94_mhz

800 mhz is insane 😊

It depends on what they are doing with the chip. I could very likely overclock my 4790k to 5ghz (or near it) and get to the desktop stable enough to open CPU-Z and validate my clocks, but it would crash once I put any load on it regardless of my cooling setup because the chip simply can't take the frequency. Either it's not getting enough voltage for what you want, or it's getting too much voltage and static is dancing between the transistors to the point of trouble. To me and most people into overclocking, it's useless until you can get through a few (or many) stable passes of x264 or more extreme stress tests that are going to put a heavy load on the processor, and that's where aftermarket cooling, delidding, lapping, etc come into mind. It would keep the k6 cooler, extend it's life, that's true, and it will help you keep your overclock stable under heavy loads so you could take that big overclock in cpu-z and actually USE the computer without it frying. So you see getting a stable overclock consists of getting the CPU stable AND keeping it cool, only one of the two variables checked off and the system will crash (or burn).

So when people are saying the CPU isn't thermally limited, they are saying that you're basically at the highest voltage and frequency the chip can take and run stable, and it's within the specified operating temperature which I believe is 70C on these. I'm pretty sure k6 chips don't have an on board diode, maybe just a motherboard socket sensor to give you the old CPU OVERHEATING! warnings, so you still can't be 100% sure. Trial and error and a thermal probe could help, a delta AFB series fan on your copper cooler will help even more 😈. In my experience a good heatsink + fan will drop temperatures far more than delidding, I've used the cool labs liquid pro and others and typically only see a change on the order of zero to a couple degrees Celsius.

I see pictures in the link you provided, looks like the CPU is being phase change or TEC/peltier cooled which would bring it below ambient (room) temperature, something impossible on an air cooler regardless of the efficiency of your heat transfer from the CPU to the heat sink.

As for overclocking in this case I haven't played with socket 7 in ages, I'm sure there are plenty of guides dealing with sweet spots to try out with your memory and bus configs to get more speed out of the CPU, I'd look for whichever combo got the best real world performance.

One last edit: In my experience, it's almost always (99.9998%) the VRM (voltage regulator module) that blows out before the CPU could ever cook. So how far you can get may be very dependent on your motherboard and not the CPU. It's been a while since I've toyed with these older boards with socketed VRMs, but I'd wager a guess that the voltage required to run a stock K-6 at 500MHZ is already in the upper range of voltage I would want to pass through these old systems 🤣. Oh, and then there's the exponential increase in amperage being pulled from your power supply which could cause that to blow up as well 😜. Lot's of things to consider here along with delidding 😊 😊 😊

The K6 series CPUs don't reward overclocking well, as performance increase is negligible past 500-550MHz, and don't really make much heat, so removing the IHS is completely pointless.

mrau wrote:

i have never seen any actual measurements showing better cooling in those circumstances; i believe the oil still has to be moved quickly in order to help the cooling process; imho just for shows;

It's probably also a lot less noisy. And much more messy 🤣!

And there's a difference in having the heat from the CPU transported away from the core by conducting it on one hand and otoh by moving the heated up cooling material away from the CPU and replace with non-heated material (which is what air cooling does, as air is not so great for conducting heat).

The K6-X chips don't really benefit a lot from better cooling compared to many other chips, as the heat is probably not the problem with it anyway (especially when one's looking at the mobiles).

kanecvr wrote:

The K6 series CPUs don't reward overclocking well, as performance increase is negligible past 500-550MHz, and don't really make much heat, so removing the IHS is completely pointless.

Going from 500-550 does almost nothing yes.
But every Mhz overclock on the FSB sure does a lot!

My 3dmark 2000 score is 4725. And without overclock it does not even get close to 4000.
Yes I know people might think I am silly but I am really obsessed with my K6!
My K6 build :D

Skalabala wrote:

Going from 500-550 does almost nothing yes. But every Mhz overclock on the FSB sure does a lot! […]
Show full quote

kanecvr wrote:

The K6 series CPUs don't reward overclocking well, as performance increase is negligible past 500-550MHz, and don't really make much heat, so removing the IHS is completely pointless.

Going from 500-550 does almost nothing yes.
But every Mhz overclock on the FSB sure does a lot!

My 3dmark 2000 score is 4725. And without overclock it does not even get close to 4000.
Yes I know people might think I am silly but I am really obsessed with my K6!
My K6 build :D

Then I would suggest you find a mainboard that does over 100MHz fsb stable - witch is not an easy job... also you'd have to disable the on-motherboard cache since it will only run at 100MHz, and use a K6-2+ or K6-III cpu to compensate. The thing is super-7 chipsets are only rated for 100Mhz operation - going above that usually results in instability, unless you get really really lucky.

kanecvr wrote:

Skalabala wrote:

Going from 500-550 does almost nothing yes. But every Mhz overclock on the FSB sure does a lot! […]
Show full quote

kanecvr wrote:

The K6 series CPUs don't reward overclocking well, as performance increase is negligible past 500-550MHz, and don't really make much heat, so removing the IHS is completely pointless.

Going from 500-550 does almost nothing yes.
But every Mhz overclock on the FSB sure does a lot!

My 3dmark 2000 score is 4725. And without overclock it does not even get close to 4000.
Yes I know people might think I am silly but I am really obsessed with my K6!
My K6 build :D

Then I would suggest you find a mainboard that does over 100MHz fsb stable - witch is not an easy job... also you'd have to disable the on-motherboard cache since it will only run at 100MHz, and use a K6-2+ or K6-III cpu to compensate. The thing is super-7 chipsets are only rated for 100Mhz operation - going above that usually results in instability, unless you get really really lucky.

Sorry for a minor derailing, but would it be possible to exchange the SRAM chips on the motherboard with faster ones?
The Pentium 2 SRAM chips come to mind, mostly because these were usually rated at much higher frequencies. It would require some major soldering skills though to pull off such a feat and I'm not even sure this is possible. But still an interesting idea.

Tetrium wrote:

Sorry for a minor derailing, but would it be possible to exchange the SRAM chips on the motherboard with faster ones?
The Pentium 2 SRAM chips come to mind, mostly because these were usually rated at much higher frequencies. It would require some major soldering skills though to pull off such a feat and I'm not even sure this is possible. But still an interesting idea.

Theoretically yes, but they are still slow and useless when using a k6-3

I removed the heatspredder from a K6-3 in like 2001 and ended up killing it. The die is extremely fragile. You definitely want a shim.

But the limited clock headroom isn't heat related. It's architectural. And nothing is going to help the poor memory performance of the platform.

quite frankly i dont even remember what the numbers of my old chomper were regarding this; but raising FSB as someone stated here should help a bit, even if slightly underclocking the core;

mrau wrote:

quite frankly i dont even remember what the numbers of my old chomper were regarding this; but raising FSB as someone stated here should help a bit, even if slightly underclocking the core;

No doubt. PC100 systems typically benefit from increased memory bandwidth. In the tests I've seen over the years, Super 7 appears quite inefficient.

kanecvr wrote:

Skalabala wrote:

Going from 500-550 does almost nothing yes. But every Mhz overclock on the FSB sure does a lot! […]
Show full quote

kanecvr wrote:

The K6 series CPUs don't reward overclocking well, as performance increase is negligible past 500-550MHz, and don't really make much heat, so removing the IHS is completely pointless.

Going from 500-550 does almost nothing yes.
But every Mhz overclock on the FSB sure does a lot!

My 3dmark 2000 score is 4725. And without overclock it does not even get close to 4000.
Yes I know people might think I am silly but I am really obsessed with my K6!
My K6 build :D

Then I would suggest you find a mainboard that does over 100MHz fsb stable - witch is not an easy job... also you'd have to disable the on-motherboard cache since it will only run at 100MHz, and use a K6-2+ or K6-III cpu to compensate. The thing is super-7 chipsets are only rated for 100Mhz operation - going above that usually results in instability, unless you get really really lucky.

What do you mean by 100FSB? They came out with 100FSB? My K6 2 533 can run 130FSB stable and stable enough for one 3dmark pass on 135FSB
So far it looks like people say that the P5A-B is the best for FSB overclock 😁
Wish I can get one.

kanecvr wrote:

Tetrium wrote:

Sorry for a minor derailing, but would it be possible to exchange the SRAM chips on the motherboard with faster ones?
The Pentium 2 SRAM chips come to mind, mostly because these were usually rated at much higher frequencies. It would require some major soldering skills though to pull off such a feat and I'm not even sure this is possible. But still an interesting idea.

Theoretically yes, but they are still slow and useless when using a k6-3

This will be sooo cool if it could be done successfully!! 😎