Ozzuneoj wrote on 2022-12-28, 15:46:

dionb wrote on 2022-12-28, 12:44:

But which is 'best' is an academic discussion if you don't have perfect availability of all models. Better idea: find out what is available and try and figure out which of those is best for your purposes.

I feel like this subject comes up a lot here. People frequently ask for what is the best without first looking at what is available to them, and for what cost.

It does come up a lot, but in a way I can imagine someone (for whatever reason) wanting to start building their own retro PC and checking prices, only to be blown away by the enormous amount of different part numbers available. And with current prices I'd also want to not get hosed by a wrong (and perhaps expensive) purchase. And if asking anyway, then might as well ask for the best and see where it goes from there.

I do wonder what their motivation is though. I mean if I were to start now, I'd probably want something that reminds me of past experiences (what games I played and what hardware I used it on, for instance) so I'd already have a basic idea of where to start.

Tetrium wrote on 2022-12-28, 16:56:

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2022-12-28, 15:46:

dionb wrote on 2022-12-28, 12:44:

But which is 'best' is an academic discussion if you don't have perfect availability of all models. Better idea: find out what is available and try and figure out which of those is best for your purposes.

I feel like this subject comes up a lot here. People frequently ask for what is the best without first looking at what is available to them, and for what cost.

It does come up a lot, but in a way I can imagine someone (for whatever reason) wanting to start building their own retro PC and checking prices, only to be blown away by the enormous amount of different part numbers available. And with current prices I'd also want to not get hosed by a wrong (and perhaps expensive) purchase. And if asking anyway, then might as well ask for the best and see where it goes from there.

I do wonder what their motivation is though. I mean if I were to start now, I'd probably want something that reminds me of past experiences (what games I played and what hardware I used it on, for instance) so I'd already have a basic idea of where to start.

This is partly because younger generations aren't actually familiar nor nostalgic with older stuff but want to get a "proper" experience without emulation.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2022-12-28, 17:32:

Tetrium wrote on 2022-12-28, 16:56:

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2022-12-28, 15:46:

I feel like this subject comes up a lot here. People frequently ask for what is the best without first looking at what is available to them, and for what cost.

It does come up a lot, but in a way I can imagine someone (for whatever reason) wanting to start building their own retro PC and checking prices, only to be blown away by the enormous amount of different part numbers available. And with current prices I'd also want to not get hosed by a wrong (and perhaps expensive) purchase. And if asking anyway, then might as well ask for the best and see where it goes from there.

I do wonder what their motivation is though. I mean if I were to start now, I'd probably want something that reminds me of past experiences (what games I played and what hardware I used it on, for instance) so I'd already have a basic idea of where to start.

This is partly because younger generations aren't actually familiar nor nostalgic with older stuff but want to get a "proper" experience without emulation.

Good call.

magicmaxx85 wrote on 2022-12-27, 20:02:

Thank you for all the options that you have offered me, I am between the second and the third option. Definitely going for a CRT monitor, like I had as a kid. Can you tell me which was the best monitor of that time? Here it is very difficult to get some pieces.

Best of the time isn't as relevant as what is available and more importantly, working properly.

When it comes to CRT monitors, your best bet is to try to find something that is unused (new old-stock). Your next best bet is finding something with minimal usage or something that has been looked after and/or refurbished.

Otherwise, I can tell you from experience that acquiring old CRT monitors is a gamble. I've got about a dozen of them and at least half are in need of repairs.

I would emphasize that the best CRT for someone new to this stuff would be one that they can find locally and preferably either get for free or have the ability to see it working before purchasing it.

Not having to deal with a CRT being shipped is a HUGE deal. Both because you don't have to ship it BACK if it has problems, and because it is far more likely to get damaged in shipping than any other way.

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2022-12-28, 18:27:

I would emphasize that the best CRT for someone new to this stuff would be one that they can find locally and preferably either get for free or have the ability to see it working before purchasing it.

Not having to deal with a CRT being shipped is a HUGE deal. Both because you don't have to ship it BACK if it has problems, and because it is far more likely to get damaged in shipping than any other way.

+1

Especially for larger CRTs (17" and up), those are even more likely to get damaged in shipping due to their size and weight.

Personally I haven't ordered any CRTs larger than 14" and I've been three times lucky that the ones I have ordered have arrived intact.

Definitely. These are ancient and vulnerable beasts, being able to see it works well and will still do so once you get home (assuming you don't drop it yourself) is a massive benefit. No point in getting that absolutely sublime monitor for someone to put it unpadded in a cardboard box and arrive in pieces.

Just as an exercise I had a look at what I could get here locally:
- 16 CRTs in the widest sense of the word
- 1 not PC monitor but some security thing
- 5 untested and no obvious redeeming features to make it worth a look
- 1 tested but peeling coating and generally poor condition

So that leaves 9 potential options.
- 2 good looking screens but EUR 250 asking price/bidding (CTX VL-700 17", ForMac ProNitron 21/700 21"). I certainly wouldn't pay those numbers, let's say my max budget would be EUR 200 (in fact I'd aim for max 1/4 that).
7 left. Now, look at the brands:
- Iiyama (2x)
- Samsung
- Dell
- Compaq
- IBM
- Smile

Minimal googling would tell even someone with no prior knowledge, that Smile was a bottom-scraping low end vendor with bad reputation. IBM, Compaq and Dell were OEMs with everything from excellent high-end to low end crap, Samsung was a decent vendor and Iiyama was a premium brand.

Going one step further, the IBM is an E-series, so low-end, as is the Compaq V-series. The Dell though is a P-series (Ultrascan P990) high-end screen. The Samsung is also a decent late CRT screen (SyncMaster 997df) where one Iiyama is an older MF-8617T Vision Master 17 and the other a newer A901HT Vision Master Pro 450.

Then finally google reviews of those specific monitors:
- Dell Ultrascan P990: excellent 0.25 dot pitch, 1600x1200@85Hz 19", not-quite-flat Trinitron
- Iiyama MF-8617T: 1997 model, 1280x1024@80Hz 17", flat-screen aperture-grille tube with good reviews in paper magazines...
- Iiyama A901HT: 1999 model 1600x1200 19" Diamondtron flat-screen tube
- Samsung SyncMaster 997df: very late (2004?) 19" 0.20 dot pitch, 1600x1200@76Hz, flat-screen shadow mask

Now, just looking at those four you can have good discussions on which is best. What is "best" depends on what you want. For Windows desktop work, high refresh rates at high resolutions are key. For Windows gaming on a P2, you need good deep colour and maybe a bit of shadow mask blurring. For DOS, you really want that shadow mask and refresh rates and resolutions beyond 720x400@70Hz aren't interesting in the slightest (so much so that for a pure DOS system I'd look at those low-end IBM or Compaq screens, they would actually look better than this lot). I'd personally prefer a CRT that is not completely flat and doesn't have aperture-grille (diamondtron/trinitron) as that combination tends to make the image look very similar to TFT, which is the whole thing we're trying to avoid here 😉
If I didn't already have a nice 17" Iiyama Vision master (and an old OEM beast that needs repair but would look so much better under DOS) I'd probably start looking at the Dell, then the Samsung and finaly new then old Iiyama - but none is a perfect fit for my preferences and all would be perfectly serviceable.

Obviously it helps that I'm pretty familiar with this stuff, but all the looking up what is available locally, then ditching untested or overpriced options and listing a shortlist of brand + model name of available, affordable and as far as can be judged from a pic: working screens is something anybody could - and should - do.

dionb wrote on 2022-12-29, 00:14:

Definitely. These are ancient and vulnerable beasts, being able to see it works well and will still do so once you get home (ass […]
Show full quote

Definitely. These are ancient and vulnerable beasts, being able to see it works well and will still do so once you get home (assuming you don't drop it yourself) is a massive benefit. No point in getting that absolutely sublime monitor for someone to put it unpadded in a cardboard box and arrive in pieces.

Just as an exercise I had a look at what I could get here locally:
- 16 CRTs in the widest sense of the word
- 1 not PC monitor but some security thing
- 5 untested and no obvious redeeming features to make it worth a look
- 1 tested but peeling coating and generally poor condition

So that leaves 9 potential options.
- 2 good looking screens but EUR 250 asking price/bidding (CTX VL-700 17", ForMac ProNitron 21/700 21"). I certainly wouldn't pay those numbers, let's say my max budget would be EUR 200 (in fact I'd aim for max 1/4 that).
7 left. Now, look at the brands:
- Iiyama (2x)
- Samsung
- Dell
- Compaq
- IBM
- Smile

Minimal googling would tell even someone with no prior knowledge, that Smile was a bottom-scraping low end vendor with bad reputation. IBM, Compaq and Dell were OEMs with everything from excellent high-end to low end crap, Samsung was a decent vendor and Iiyama was a premium brand.

Going one step further, the IBM is an E-series, so low-end, as is the Compaq V-series. The Dell though is a P-series (Ultrascan P990) high-end screen. The Samsung is also a decent late CRT screen (SyncMaster 997df) where one Iiyama is an older MF-8617T Vision Master 17 and the other a newer A901HT Vision Master Pro 450.

Then finally google reviews of those specific monitors:
- Dell Ultrascan P990: excellent 0.25 dot pitch, 1600x1200@85Hz 19", not-quite-flat Trinitron
- Iiyama MF-8617T: 1997 model, 1280x1024@80Hz 17", flat-screen aperture-grille tube with good reviews in paper magazines...
- Iiyama A901HT: 1999 model 1600x1200 19" Diamondtron flat-screen tube
- Samsung SyncMaster 997df: very late (2004?) 19" 0.20 dot pitch, 1600x1200@76Hz, flat-screen shadow mask

Now, just looking at those four you can have good discussions on which is best. What is "best" depends on what you want. For Windows desktop work, high refresh rates at high resolutions are key. For Windows gaming on a P2, you need good deep colour and maybe a bit of shadow mask blurring. For DOS, you really want that shadow mask and refresh rates and resolutions beyond 720x400@70Hz aren't interesting in the slightest (so much so that for a pure DOS system I'd look at those low-end IBM or Compaq screens, they would actually look better than this lot). I'd personally prefer a CRT that is not completely flat and doesn't have aperture-grille (diamondtron/trinitron) as that combination tends to make the image look very similar to TFT, which is the whole thing we're trying to avoid here 😉
If I didn't already have a nice 17" Iiyama Vision master (and an old OEM beast that needs repair but would look so much better under DOS) I'd probably start looking at the Dell, then the Samsung and finaly new then old Iiyama - but none is a perfect fit for my preferences and all would be perfectly serviceable.

Obviously it helps that I'm pretty familiar with this stuff, but all the looking up what is available locally, then ditching untested or overpriced options and listing a shortlist of brand + model name of available, affordable and as far as can be judged from a pic: working screens is something anybody could - and should - do.

This is exactly how it's done. Nice write-up. 👍🏻

... I wish I had that kind of selection in my area!!... wait, no I don't! I have so many CRTs stockpiled already, I would be crazy to seek out more.

Holy cow... I have never actually sat here and counted the ones I have collected...
12x VGA CRTs from 14"-21" (All were working great when last powered on)
2x EGA\VGA "Multisync" CRTs (one needs repairs and one is trashed with a cracked tube)
2x CGA\EGA "PC\XT" CRTs
2x Apple compatible CRTs (one color, one amber)
aaand... a 21" flat screen standard def tube TV. @_@

I have a problem... and my problem is that I like CRTs. 🙁

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2022-12-26, 04:35:

You actually have to have some 3rd card to act as a video card because the Voodoo 2 cards are only 3D accelerators. They cannot be used for anything outside of 3D accelerated games.

Any card with sufficient 2D capabilities to run your desktop and any non-accelerated games should be fine, so you can try the Trident card and see how that works. That card will plug into the VGA input on your first Voodoo 2 card with a short VGA pass-through cable, then your monitor plugs into the output on the Voodoo 2 card. The 2nd Voodoo card will be connected to the 1st one internally with an SLI ribbon cable.

This is required to make this setup function properly.

just for the record, while pass-through is the usual way of doing this, it's not the only way. it's also possible to use two monitors, or use a single monitor with two inputs. there were CRTs at the time that could switch between BNC and VGA inputs, so this could even be a period correct setup, and has the advantage of not degrading the primary VGA output.

AppleSauce wrote on 2022-12-28, 16:28:

:laughing: everything's upside-down here in didgeridoo land. No but seriously I'm pretty sure its atx? though its much newer tha […]
Show full quote

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2022-12-28, 16:16:

AppleSauce wrote on 2022-12-28, 16:05:

20220828_204134.jpg

Is that a BTX case or am I just seeing things this way because you're in Australia and I'm in the US?

😆 everything's upside-down here in didgeridoo land.
No but seriously I'm pretty sure its atx? though its much newer than that hardware (circa mid to late 00s maybe?)
I basically blew all my money on the hardware and skimped out on the case and just used one I had lying around that I found on a kerb.

😆

No no, your case is fine, it's my lame attempt at humor that belongs at the kerb. 🤣

auron wrote on 2022-12-29, 06:09:

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2022-12-26, 04:35:

You actually have to have some 3rd card to act as a video card because the Voodoo 2 cards are only 3D accelerators. They cannot be used for anything outside of 3D accelerated games.

Any card with sufficient 2D capabilities to run your desktop and any non-accelerated games should be fine, so you can try the Trident card and see how that works. That card will plug into the VGA input on your first Voodoo 2 card with a short VGA pass-through cable, then your monitor plugs into the output on the Voodoo 2 card. The 2nd Voodoo card will be connected to the 1st one internally with an SLI ribbon cable.

This is required to make this setup function properly.

just for the record, while pass-through is the usual way of doing this, it's not the only way. it's also possible to use two monitors, or use a single monitor with two inputs. there were CRTs at the time that could switch between BNC and VGA inputs, so this could even be a period correct setup, and has the advantage of not degrading the primary VGA output.

That's true. I've done that myself. It is nice to not have the degraded 2D clarity, and it is noticeable. I will say, I do remember at least one game being a pain in the butt because some menu or screen was not accelerated so it repeatedly required that I switch back and forth manually. I can't remember what game it was though. The way it was expected to be hooked up is a passthrough so that you're always seeing what is intended by the system, but it can certainly be done with manual switches if you manage to find a monitor with two inputs or a cheap VGA switch and don't mind dealing with any additional quirks.