renejr902 wrote on 2020-08-25, 23:39:

You know what you're talking about, Bloodem :) First about Detonator 7,76 you were right. With the geforce 3 ti200 each game in […]
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You know what you're talking about, Bloodem 😀
First about Detonator 7,76 you were right. With the geforce 3 ti200 each game in 1024x768 have 10 to 20+ more fps than nvidia 30.82 driver.

In NFSIII , with 7,76 the first race, with the highest graphics setting in 1024x768 i got 60fps , 100% stable. I didnt find a way to fall to 59fps 🤣 Always at 60fps. BUT with 30.82, with same setting, race start at 55fps and drop to 45 when A LOT of cars or 50-55 with a lot of fog. When no car around it stays at 60fps. i made several tests.. But if i put view distance to medium it will stay at 60fps almost 99% of the time. it drop to 55fps when a lot of cars in the same place.
So i will play this game with 7,76 driver.

With Porsche Unleashed BIG DIFFERENCE!

With 7.76 driver
in 1024x768x32 with highest graphics settings , except high view distance instead of very high and NO HUD display option: in the Normandie race, at the start in forest with a lot of cars, i got 55 and the next minute it was 50 to 65 fps, one time only it drop to 45 fps. Most of time 50-60fps. As soon as i exit the forest even with a lot of cars at the exit , for the next minute i got 65 fps to 75fps even with a lot of cars. After that When i race at first place with no cars around i got 75 to 85fps until the lap end. IM 100% satisfied with the geforce 3 ti in this game. ( i will make the same test in my p2 450mhz soon and update my benchmark result)

Now!! ouch!! With 30.82 drivers, things gone bad. LoL! With same settings, at start i got 28-29fps yeah instead of 50-60 with 7,76 driver. Ouch!!
When racing in forest with a lot of cars i got i got 27 to 35fps most of the time, a few time 25fps. a few times 40fps. when i exit the forest with no cars around, i got 62 to 67fps until the lap end VS 75-85 for 7,76 driver. GF3 with 30,82 is still a lot better than geforce mx440se-64bit at 15-20fps at the start of Normandie race. with 30.82 its still runs 2X time better than mx440se. i have to check again but i think the ram of my 440mx 64bit is only sdr , its really a bad card.

Glad you're happy with the performance. 😀 Yes, what you are seeing is more or less what I also saw when I did the tests. Which is why, I decided that for older platforms (including Pentium 3 coppermines), in most cases it's better to stick with older drivers (so, older video cards).

renejr902 wrote on 2020-08-25, 23:39:

Here's the problem with 7,76 drivers. I DIDN'T FIND a way to get Hot Pursuit 2 working with 7.76 driver. i tried for a long time. Even with the game fully patched with last patch, game froze at startup OR when starting the race. i have to reboot the computer. More strange in graphics setting if i switch to 32bit, a black screen appear and game freeze. if i try to max out the different setting, it says: your hardware cant do highest setting. so i can select them.

But with 30.82 drivers, game run at least very fine, very playable. I made several tests with differents graphics setting. But in medium graphics at 1024x768x32bits i got at least always 30fps. most of time 35 to 45. high is 50-55 with no cars around. in these same graphic setting i got 7 to 12fps with mx440se. same for gf2mx 200 64bit.
In high graphics with gf3 ti200 the game between 20 to 35fps, its not playable for me. Medium graphic is st least very playable in 1024x768x32b.

Well, it's normal, that game is much newer - it was released in the Fall of 2002, so 1.5 - 2 years after driver v7.76 was released 😀. Anyway, I never bothered playing NFS Hot Pursuit 2 and newer games on Windows 98, I consider them to be Windows XP era games (even though they also officially support Windows 98), so I play them on Windows XP builds.

renejr902 wrote on 2020-08-25, 23:39:

1. Do you believe i could have more fps in Porshe unleashed and Hot Pursuit2 with a Geforce 4 Ti4200? ( maybe i will buy one in a few months)
And the same question for the Geforce 2 GTS,Ti,Ultra ? ( but i think it should be worst than gf3) ( i think 6800gt or ultra too will be slower, right? i think this because fx 5200 pci 64bit runs very badly in NFSiii worse than mx440se by a big difference.) thanks

Well, as you've discovered, newer driver versions are not that great on P3 Coppermine, and since GeForce 4 Ti 4200 will need a much newer driver version, you will probably see the same performance drop that you saw with the GeForce 3 Ti 200 & driver v30.82. Having said that, if you can get a GeForce 4 Ti 4200/4400/4600 for cheap, go for it! That card is AWESOME on faster systems (I prefer to use it on Athlon XP, but also have one on a Pentium 3 Tualatin OC @ 1.57 GHz and it's very fast).

renejr902 wrote on 2020-08-25, 23:39:

2. On my P3 933mhz, With the voodoo 3 i patches NFSIII with the voodoo 3 patch, but i think it runs in D3D instead of Glide 3dfx mode ? How can i know in which mode it runs ? Did i configured it correctly for glide ? i followed the instruction. And fraps doesnt work with voodoo3 in NFSIII. But the game dont runs very smootly, it looks like 40-45fps very disappointed 🙁 Still i will play it with Gf3 ti200 instead. Except if the game was running in d3d and i find a way to get glide working and at 60fps. Im very disappoibted of the voodoo3 performance with NFS III 🙁 i dont need fraps to see that the game runs not very smootly like 40-45fps. thanks

If you have the 3DFX Splash screen activated, you should see it when running the game. Maybe you applied the high resolution patch for GeForce cards (which means that you replaced the voodoo2 dll with the d3d dll)?

renejr902 wrote on 2020-08-25, 23:39:

3. I cant find a way to get Wipeout XL working in Glide, because Glide dont appear in the configuration menu, only d3d. and i didn't find any glide 3dfx patch for Wipeout XL. i would like to play this game on my voodoo3 like in my young age with voodoo1. any voodoo3 patch ? thanks

Don't have any experience with that game, so maybe someone else can assist with it.

renejr902 wrote on 2020-08-25, 23:39:

4. About the voodoo 3 in glide, i got it working very nicely in NFS II SE, i love the fog. But do you know any trick to get higher resolution ? i think its 640x480.

As far as I know, that game is locked at 640x480 in real Glide and there's no easy way of changing it. However, on a modern PC, you can easily play it at 4k resolution if you want (though, it's not the same). 😀

renejr902 wrote on 2020-08-25, 23:39:

5. What is the best voodoo3 driver for win98? i use the last official one. i think 1.07 or something like that.

That's usually what I also prefer, though some people like to use the unofficial FastVoodoo drivers. However, for the games I tried, I've had no issues with 1.07.00... so I'm sticking with that. 😀

renejr902 wrote on 2020-08-25, 23:39:

Thanks Bloodem for the gf3 ti200 im VERY satisfied with it. I will play a lot of NFSIII with it with 7,76 driver. and i will switch to 30.82 for hot pursuit2. i will try NFS High Stakes later.

You're welcome. 😀

Doornkaat wrote on 2020-08-26, 04:57:

Can you tell me where those numbers are from? I'm doubtful they're accurate since Intel specifies a maximum of 2A for 5V AGP power supply in their Accelerated Graphics Port Interface Specification Revision 2.0.

2 Amps would mean that the GeForce 3 Ti only needs ~10 Watts of power, which is not the case. It was common knowledge in 2001 that the GeForce 3 series was A LOT more power hungry than previous generation cards (even higher than a GeForce 256, which was considered to be a motherboard killer for its time). A GeForce 2 GTS needs 8 - 10 Watts of power, a GeForce 3 Ti 200 needs 25 Watts, a GeForce 3 Ti 500 needs 35 Watts or so. Now, I can't be 100% sure that all this power comes from the 5V rail, part of it it could also come from the 3.3V rail (but I have some doubts about that, it wouldn't really make sense).
You can check this chart here: https://www.vintage3d.org/rgraph/single/cons2.php
I can confirm that it's accurate, at least for these retro cards, because it's in line with what my Wattmeter was showing during my tests.

bloodem wrote on 2020-08-26, 08:11:

2 Amps would mean that the GeForce 3 Ti only needs ~10 Watts of power, which is not the case. It was common knowledge in 2001 that the GeForce 3 series was A LOT more power hungry than previous generation cards (even higher than a GeForce 256, which was considered to be a motherboard killer for its time). A GeForce 2 GTS needs 8 - 10 Watts of power, a GeForce 3 Ti 200 needs 25 Watts, a GeForce 3 Ti 500 needs 35 Watts or so. Now, I can't be 100% sure that all this power comes from the 5V rail, part of it it could also come from the 3.3V rail (but I have some doubts about that, it wouldn't really make sense).
You can check this chart here: https://www.vintage3d.org/rgraph/single/cons2.php
I can confirm that it's accurate, at least for these retro cards, because it's in line with what my Wattmeter was showing during my tests.

Yes, those numbers sound about right but I can't really see how you would argue it wouldn't make sense for AGP cards (without additional power connector) to draw most of their power from 3.3V.

2 Amps would mean that the GeForce 3 Ti only needs ~10 Watts of power

is a false conclusion. AGP is designed to rely more on +3.3V than +5V. The aforementioned document specifies 6A @+3.3V plus allowing another 8A(!) for signalling (though stating actual signalling averages will be below 2A).
+5VCC is specified at a max of 2A. A universal AGP card drawing significantly more current on the AGP connector would not have met the AGP2.0/3.0 specifications and could not legally have been sold as AGP compatible.
You also have ten VCC 3.3 pins (plus eleven Vddq 3.3/1.5) pins on the AGP connector and only two +5V pins. Driving a 35W card off +5V alone would mean 3.5A on each of those two pins. I don't believe a small connection like that is suitable for those currents.
The AGP3.0 Interface Specification adds stability concerns for the motherboard's 3.3V rail, specifying "a maximum current change of 2.5 amps in any 500 us window of time (exclusive of initial power-up) on the 3.3V rail." There's no such concern for the +5V rail.
Even though I haven't ever performed any measurements those arguemnts lead me to believe that a Geforce 3 Ti 200 will not draw most of its power from +5V and instead rely mostly on 3.3V for power delivery and signalling.

This post is neither a personal attack nor a jab on your general competence nor any other form of malintent! I know not being a native english speaker I sometimes don't use the right words to signal my intent. It's just that this overestimation of +5V power demand is probably my biggest retro PC pet peeve. I can never not argue.😅

Wow, that's a very in-depth explanation of voltages used in AGP! Very informative 🤓

Hi guys ! I think i got NFSIII working correctly in glide. But I dont see the splash screen. But Fraps doesnt show fps counter and it seems Fraps cant work in Glide mode. Any idea to get Fraps working with Glide or any other fps counter you can suggest for Glide?

In NFSIII in glide mode 1024x768 max graphics except with medium or high view distance, with the voodoo3 its seems near 60fps but a few slowdown and fps spike happen but not too much. ( in d3d mode it runs not good enough, even badly, not very playable its like 40-50 with a lot fps spike of 40 and below) In glide mode its good enough, but its still way better with the Geforce 3 Ti200. Geforce 3 ti200 got it perfect at 100% with view distance at Full, i dont use Full with voodoo3 even in glide because it runs too badly. Even the mmx440se in d3d seems to run NFSIII better than voodoo3 in glide, a lot disappointed. But if the voodoo3 was the only option in NFSiii it would be good enough though with the high graphics settings at 1024x768 in glide. I was just hope for more from the voodoo3. I will try the voodoo3 in the P2 450 and the 233mmx too with the same game.

Another things In NFSIII at 1024x768x16bits, in d3d mode, the Geforce 3 ti200 looks MUCH better ( 3d picture quality, colors, contrast, details..) than Voodoo3 in glide. I hope for more about the voodoo3 for this too. Its even worse in Porsche Unleashed in 16 bits for each videocard.But it seems to be recommended to use voodoo2a.dll from banshee patch to get nfsiii more beautiful with the voodoo3, i will try it later. it seems voodoo3 patch doesnt have fog. vs banshee patch.

Is that all normal ? ( that voodoo3 cant perform and looks as good as Geforce ti200 or even the Geforce 4 mx440se)

Thanks guys ! ( and yes all that begin with a pentium 233 mmx LoL! But i still use the 233mmx too for dos and a little win98 gaming)

Doornkaat wrote on 2020-08-26, 14:05:

Yes, those numbers sound about right but I can't really see how you would argue it wouldn't make sense for AGP cards (without ad […]
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Yes, those numbers sound about right but I can't really see how you would argue it wouldn't make sense for AGP cards (without additional power connector) to draw most of their power from 3.3V.
is a false conclusion. AGP is designed to rely more on +3.3V than +5V. The aforementioned document specifies 6A @+3.3V plus allowing another 8A(!) for signalling (though stating actual signalling averages will be below 2A).
+5VCC is specified at a max of 2A. A universal AGP card drawing significantly more current on the AGP connector would not have met the AGP2.0/3.0 specifications and could not legally have been sold as AGP compatible.
You also have ten VCC 3.3 pins (plus eleven Vddq 3.3/1.5) pins on the AGP connector and only two +5V pins. Driving a 35W card off +5V alone would mean 3.5A on each of those two pins. I don't believe a small connection like that is suitable for those currents.
The AGP3.0 Interface Specification adds stability concerns for the motherboard's 3.3V rail, specifying "a maximum current change of 2.5 amps in any 500 us window of time (exclusive of initial power-up) on the 3.3V rail." There's no such concern for the +5V rail.
Even though I haven't ever performed any measurements those arguemnts lead me to believe that a Geforce 3 Ti 200 will not draw most of its power from +5V and instead rely mostly on 3.3V for power delivery and signalling.

This post is neither a personal attack nor a jab on your general competence nor any other form of malintent! I know not being a native english speaker I sometimes don't use the right words to signal my intent. It's just that this overestimation of +5V power demand is probably my biggest retro PC pet peeve. I can never not argue.😅

Very interesting information, Doornkaat, I did not take it personal, don't worry. I am not an electronics engineer, this field is just a hobby for me. Either way, I always enjoy learning new stuff. 😀
As I said, I'm not entirely sure which rail is responsible to deliver most of the power for the AGP cards (however, I still think that from a design standpoint, it would make much more sense to deliver it from the 5V rail - it's always more efficient to use a higher voltage and lower current than vice-versa). I suppose they had a good reason to go with this design (hopefully) 😀
Now, regarding your PC retro pet peeve 😁, when people say that a certain system "needs a powerful 5V rail", they generally mean it as a heads-up that an old power supply is needed, one that provides most of the power on the 5v rail (and, implicitly, also 3.3V - since this is usually converted from the 5V rail and they have a common maximum wattage), as opposed to the 12V rail. Basically, it's a warning that a particular system does not work (or is difficult to run) with newer power supplies. 😀

renejr902 wrote on 2020-08-26, 15:03:

Hi guys ! I think i got NFSIII working correctly in glide. But I dont see the splash screen. But Fraps doesnt show fps counter a […]
Show full quote

Hi guys ! I think i got NFSIII working correctly in glide. But I dont see the splash screen. But Fraps doesnt show fps counter and it seems Fraps cant work in Glide mode. Any idea to get Fraps working with Glide or any other fps counter you can suggest for Glide?

In NFSIII in glide mode 1024x768 max graphics except with medium or high view distance, with the voodoo3 its seems near 60fps but a few slowdown and fps spike happen but not too much. ( in d3d mode it runs not good enough, even badly, not very playable its like 40-50 with a lot fps spike of 40 and below) In glide mode its good enough, but its still way better with the Geforce 3 Ti200. Geforce 3 ti200 got it perfect at 100% with view distance at Full, i dont use Full with voodoo3 even in glide because it runs too badly. Even the mmx440se in d3d seems to run NFSIII better than voodoo3 in glide, a lot disappointed. But if the voodoo3 was the only option in NFSiii it would be good enough though with the high graphics settings at 1024x768 in glide. I was just hope for more from the voodoo3. I will try the voodoo3 in the P2 450 and the 233mmx too with the same game.

Another things In NFSIII at 1024x768x16bits, in d3d mode, the Geforce 3 ti200 looks MUCH better ( 3d picture quality, colors, contrast, details..) than Voodoo3 in glide. I hope for more about the voodoo3 for this too. Its even worse in Porsche Unleashed in 16 bits for each videocard.But it seems to be recommended to use voodoo2a.dll from banshee patch to get nfsiii more beautiful with the voodoo3, i will try it later. it seems voodoo3 patch doesnt have fog. vs banshee patch.

Is that all normal ? ( that voodoo3 cant perform and looks as good as Geforce ti200 or even the Geforce 4 mx440se)

Thanks guys ! ( and yes all that begin with a pentium 233 mmx LoL! But i still use the 233mmx too for dos and a little win98 gaming)

As far as I know, there's no way of seeing the FPS counter for Glide.

Regarding the Voodoo 3, it's a nice card but it has its limitations. For slow systems (socket 7), it can be much faster than a GeForce card when using Glide, because of lower CPU overhead and generally having drivers that were heavily optimized for these slow CPUs.
But once you go with a faster CPU (like the Coppermine), GeForce cards such as the 3 Ti 200 will destroy it in any scenario. You need to realize that the GeForce 3 is MUCH more powerful even compared to the Voodoo 5 😀 When GeForce 3 came out, 3dfx was already bankrupt and most of its assets had been bought by nVIDIA.
So if you want to see the Voodoo 3's true power, use it with a slower PC. When we recommended it to you, we were discussing about P MMX233. With the Coppermine 933 MHz, there's a paradigm shift - there are better cards for it. Funny, huh? 😀

Ok thanks for this answer Bloodem 😉 Anyway, my voodoo3 pci will be use a lot in my P233mmx. In that p233mmx it will shine for sure ! 😀

If someone find a way to get Wipeout XL works in Glide with a Voodoo3 , please let know. Thanks a lot!

devius wrote on 2020-08-26, 14:46:

Wow, that's a very in-depth explanation of voltages used in AGP! Very informative 🤓

Please don't overestimate my expertise. 😅 It's all just inferences from some of the info from page 95 of the AGP3.0 Interface Specification Rev. 1.0 (attached) and counting pins on pinout diagrams.

renejr902 wrote on 2020-08-26, 15:03:

Is that all normal ? ( that voodoo3 cant perform and looks as good as Geforce ti200 or even the Geforce 4 mx440se)

At least performance wise it is to be expected for both the GF4 MX 440se (especially the 128bit DDR VRAM version) and GF3 Ti 200 to far outperform the Voodoo3 3000.

bloodem wrote on 2020-08-26, 15:31:

Very interesting information, Doornkaat, I did not take it personal, don't worry. I am not an electronics engineer, this field is just a hobby for me. Either way, I always enjoy learning new stuff. 😀

Glad to hear that. 😀 I'm just a hobbyist myself and always thankful for good info. But you know how those discussions on more or less anonymous platforms tend to get. So I'm rather safe than sorry. 😉

bloodem wrote on 2020-08-26, 15:31:

As I said, I'm not entirely sure which rail is responsible to deliver most of the power for the AGP cards (however, I still think that from a design standpoint, it would make much more sense to deliver it from the 5V rail - it's always more efficient to use a higher voltage and lower current than vice-versa). I suppose they had a good reason to go with this design (hopefully) 😀

My educated guess would be AGP's close relation to 66MHz PCI which relies on 3.3V signaling just made it seem viable. This way initial AGP cards like the Riva 128 or TNT don't need any voltage conversion at all. Also not using the (then) main +5V rail would probably increase system stability with sudden load changes?

bloodem wrote on 2020-08-26, 15:31:

Now, regarding your PC retro pet peeve 😁, when people say that a certain system "needs a powerful 5V rail", they generally mean it as a heads-up that an old power supply is needed, one that provides most of the power on the 5v rail (and, implicitly, also 3.3V - since this is usually converted from the 5V rail and they have a common maximum wattage), as opposed to the 12V rail. Basically, it's a warning that a particular system does not work with newer power supplies. 😀

I know, and I tend to agree that 20A@+5V / 150W+3.3V/+5V combined on an Athlon XP system isn't a bad idea! 😉
But I've read recommendations like that for K6-III systems or Pentium III computers that'll probably draw less than 100W from the wall under full load. 😁
I know it doesn't concern me and it shouldn't bother me. But I can't let this go. And I don't want to either. 😉

Doornkaat wrote on 2020-08-26, 16:35:

My educated guess would be AGP's close relation to 66MHz PCI which relies on 3.3V signaling just made it seem viable. This way initial AGP cards like the Riva 128 or TNT don't need any voltage conversion at all. Also not using the (then) main +5V rail would probably increase system stability with sudden load changes?

A very good guess, that does make sense, indeed.

Doornkaat wrote on 2020-08-26, 16:35:

I know, and I tend to agree that 20A@+5V / 150W+3.3V/+5V combined on an Athlon XP system isn't a bad idea! 😉
But I've read recommendations like that for K6-III systems or Pentium III computers that'll probably draw less than 100W from the wall under full load. 😁
I know it doesn't concern me and it shouldn't bother me. But I can't let this go. And I don't want to either. 😉

Yeah, my K6-2+ PCs usually revolve around a 60W total power consumption (with GeForce 2 MX cards). With a Voodoo 3, it's ~ 70-75W. For sure it won't be an issue for a modern high quality PSU like Corsair/Seasonic & Co, however, for an "el cheapo" modern PSU with a "theoretical" 100W combined wattage for 3.3v + 5v (which, for all we know, could very well be more like 50W max), this could still be a big problem. That cheap PSU could be capable of running a budget Ryzen 3 system, but it might die (and also destroy the board) even when used with a low power retro PC like the K6-2. So, it's better to be safe than sorry and warn the person, because you never know what PSU he will end up using for that retro system. 😀

Hi guys! I can have a Isa Sound Blaster Vibra 16c ct2970 for 20$ from the same friend. ( i checked and its not a OPL3 but CSM chip instead, im disappointed.)

But is it better than isa Crystal CS4236b or Ess1869f ? thanks for your opinion.

(Im not sure to buy it because i want a real isa Sound Blaster 16 with opl3 chip in some months, but not for now its expensive.)

renejr902 wrote on 2020-08-27, 03:18:

But is it better than isa Crystal CS4236b or Ess1869f ? thanks for your opinion.

For FM synth, certainly not. See here for a comparison between CQM, OPL3 and ESFM.

For 16-bit digital audio, I would personally say no as well, mostly due to the Vibra distortion bug. I find it very annoying.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2020-08-27, 04:53:

For FM synth, certainly not. See here for a comparison between CQM, OPL3 and ESFM.

Those are actually the best case scenarios for CQM 😁
In many other games it's much, much worse...

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2020-08-27, 04:53:

renejr902 wrote on 2020-08-27, 03:18:

But is it better than isa Crystal CS4236b or Ess1869f ? thanks for your opinion.

For FM synth, certainly not. See here for a comparison between CQM, OPL3 and ESFM.

For 16-bit digital audio, I would personally say no as well, mostly due to the Vibra distortion bug. I find it very annoying.

bloodem wrote on 2020-08-27, 05:21:

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2020-08-27, 04:53:

For FM synth, certainly not. See here for a comparison between CQM, OPL3 and ESFM.

Those are actually the best case scenarios for CQM 😁
In many other games it's much, much worse...

Thanks so much for this. I take several minutes and i compare doom, duke3d and tyrian with each FM sound card.

I cant believe how bad is CQM. Its very bad or horrible. But im disappointed i was happy to think having a isa Sound Blaster card LoL! I will keep for now the Ess1869f and crystal cs4236b soundcard.

About ESFM , i google it to understand that is the fm of ess1868-1869 soundcards. To be honest it sounds very well. its very good. But i found the opl3 to have more authentic sound that i remember. But in some way the ESFM seems to have a little better quality but it doesnt sounds right in some part of the music, at least to me.

SB FM emulation sounds strange and buggy even if its sounds more like opl3 vs CQM.

Are you agree with me, im curious 😉

In several years ago, with my 386 and Pentium 133 doom sounds as with a opl3 fm, but i cant remember the soundcard i have at that time. But with my Pentium 200mmx i have a sound blaster awe 64 and doom sounds like that CQM for sure. I remember playing Ultima 9 and it sounds great to me like more high quality, that what i thought, with awe64 , but games sounds very different from my 386 and Pentium 133 VS my pentium 200mmx and awe64.

If you need genuine OPL3 but want to avoid the various SB16 bugs, your best bet is probably a Yamaha card. Either a YMF71x (ISA slot) or a YMF7x4 (PCI slot).

The ISA cards have very good DOS compatibility as well as a WSS mode for 16-bit sound. The PCI cards have Sensaura for A3D and EAX emulation under Windows as well as a nice software wavetable for General MIDI, but their DOS compatibility is worse unless you connect them via SB-Link or your motherboard supports DDMA.

Oh man! i made some test and i changed my opinion. Finally after hearing your test page again more carefully with doom, i have to admit opl3 sounds a lot better than ESFM. i heard very well the difference now of each sound and beat and effect.

Now i just tested 2 different computer. One with Ess1869f and cs4236b and play doom first stage.
you will be surprised.

ES1869f sounds exactly like ESFM from your link page.

But oh my god Crystal cs4236b Sounds much better than Es1869f. im very surprised.

On the CS4236b each sound, beat, effect sounds like a real opl3. ( i have to check if it could have a real opl3 on the board, i know some crystal cs42xx have a real opl3.) the music sounds as good as your opl3 link page. i try to find a difference. i heard each music , one after the other for several times, im doing it right now. i cant find a difference vs cs4236b and your opl3 link page opl3 music in doom.

edit : and i forgot to tell you something. The es1869f doom music sounds like a 8bit 22hz wav music VS cs4236b doom music sounds much higher quality like if it was 16bit 44hz vs 8bit 22hz for es1869f, its hard to explain. and all sound, beat snd effect sounds a lot better on cs4236b ( like a real opl3) vs ess1869f.

by the way my ess1869f sounds right and normal, i compare with your esfm link page on doom

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2020-08-27, 10:08:

If you need genuine OPL3 but want to avoid the various SB16 bugs, your best bet is probably a Yamaha card. Either a YMF71x (ISA slot) or a YMF7x4 (PCI slot).

The ISA cards have very good DOS compatibility as well as a WSS mode for 16-bit sound. The PCI cards have Sensaura for A3D and EAX emulation under Windows as well as a nice software wavetable for General MIDI, but their DOS compatibility is worse unless you connect them via SB-Link or your motherboard supports DDMA.

just read my past post , its worth it.

Man ! i just read on the net that Cs4236 have a real opl3 hardware !!! ( edit: finally i think not 🤣!, i just read a lot about this) so it should be the same for me, i have to find a proof on my board.

(i read this somewhere:
This is very likely an ISA or ISA P&P card, and will not appear
in the pci listing. Best way here is to try some P&P snoopers
or to look at the chip. I have an 'mirosound pcm 1 pro' card
in an old machine. It has CS4236 and OPL3 hardware )

But on the vogons page it says opl3 clone 🙁

http://vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?fileid=925&menustate=0

I just read this: so its a clone ? right?

2014-08: Crystal audio chips in the series from CS4235 through CS4239 appear frequently as the integrated audio on motherboards, where they provide Sound Blaster Pro 2.0 emulation, a hardware OPL3 clone, and real DOOM compatibility in a humble package, on the ISA bus with PnP.

https://flaterco.com/kb/audio/ISA/index.html#CS423X

edit: dont forget i have cs4236b not cs4235, sound and music are not glitched.

Maybe i dont understand this well, but this guy seems to think the crystal cs4236 have a real yamaha opl3 , im sorry if im in error:

http://linux.topology.org/sound.html

interesting information here too, cs4236b is much better than cs4235, but it seems really they have opl3 clone. im sorry , i suppose i dream of something that is wrong LoL!

http://dosdays.co.uk/topics/fm_synthesizers.php

I will heard again my cs4236b carefully and your opl3 doom link page music and compare more carefully. But one thing is sure, ES1869f FM doesnt sound like CS4236b FM. CS4236b FM is much better. Very very similar to a real opl3.

EDIT: i just heard again the doom music of my Crystal CS4236b and your real opl 3 doom music link page like 10 times mostly for the first minute in a row and compare them carefully, BOTH music with my great logitech speaker. Maybe im stupid. I cant see a difference. But i can see a big difference from each FM music quality in your link page. and my es1869f sounds exactly like the esfm of your link page.

My ears conclusion, they play exactly the same.
So Maybe Crystal made a miracle with their FM or my ears are not good enough LoL!
What are your opinions guys ? Thanks 😀

Edit2: i tried again, i cant find a Single difference, not even a sound or a effect of the music.

Edit3: i compared Keen4 first stage with my Crystal cs4236b and es1869f. The difference between them is good enough but not as big then doom. CS4236b play better , higher quality music , and sound and effect in the music are a little more loud, a little more precise, no glitched , no bug... But ES1869f play good too, sounds a little lower quality and sound and effect in the music looks similar but not as loud as cs4236b but i think i notice a bug somewhere in the music. but i dont heard this bug on cs4236b. In general its easy to understand that cs4236b sounds better but ES1869f do a good job too, even if its a little lower quality. The difference between both cards are not as big as with doom.

Edit4: Jazz Jackrabbit music sounds exactly the same on cs4236b and ess1869f , does Jazz Jackrabbit music use FM ?? thanks for answer

Edit5: You will be disappointed Bloodem, i wont use much my voodoo3 (and banshee if the same problem) in my p233mmx, because keen series games are all red , big colors problem. On compatibility gralhics cards list for dos, it said this problem for voodoo3 and bsnshee and keen series but only for some LCD screen. I have this problem on my samsung lcd and i dont want to change it. Keen series i play them very often, its a problem. Fx 5200 is back in my p233mmx. Anyway if i remember and understand your previous answer well, i think the fx 5200 cant cause performance problem in DOS in my p233mmx ? Right ? thanks for answer. until now i didnt notice any performance problem in dos games with my fx5200. Otherwise i will have to buy another videocard again, and i dont want too. i dont use my p233mmx much for windows 98 anyway.

Edit 6: i tested keen4 again , and i can confirm cs4236b sounds much better than es1869f. But dont worry the es1869f sounds good enough but cs4236b has really a better FM opl3 clone than ess1869f. So the best soundcard between them is definitely the CS4236b , we have a clear winner.
( for FM synth opl3 clone at least) ( a real live test comparison between Sound Blaster 16 with opl3 and CS4236b or cs4236-37 could be interesting!) (i will edit my soundcard topic later today to explain that i found cs4236b better than es1869f)

I just tried the voodoo 3 pci in windows 98 with my p233mmx. I CANT get driver working correctly. As soon as 1.07 drivers are installed ( i removed nvdia ones before) the next reboot the pc froze on windows splash screen before starting win98. The next reboot it start win98 in safe mode with drivers installed but in 640x480 256 colors. As soon as i choose 16 bit colors the pc reboot and froze at win98 splash screen before starting win98. it only runs in safe mode, froze each time i boot win98 in normal mode. maybe the voodoo3 dont want to work in win98 in 16 bits colors. i really dont know the problem. i tried 3 times reinstalled the drivers. Thanks for help. ( the voodoo3 work perfect in my p3 933mhz)

Strange behavior... I would try a Windows 98 full reinstall, with the latest Intel Chipset drivers for 430TX, Direct X 7 and Voodoo 3 drivers 1.07.00.

bloodem wrote on 2020-08-27, 13:30:

Strange behavior... I would try a Windows 98 full reinstall, with the latest Intel Chipset drivers for 430TX, Direct X 7 and Voodoo 3 drivers 1.07.00.

i tried 5 times. i used clean drivers too. No luck!

i dont have any chipset driver for the ibm PC300PL, ibm didnt offer them with the p233mhz. i dont have a agp slot too.

do you want me to install a chipset driver even if not official ? if yes, which one you recommend me?

Should i try a older voodoo 3 driver ?

i have directx 8.1 installed.

i dont want to fulk reinstall win98 for now. i want to try correct the problem if possible without reinstalled win98.

( if you didnt.. go read my full previous post about cs4236b vs es1869f its very interesting, i made 7 edit. CS4236b FM play as good as a opl3 in my opinion.. es1869f fm disappointed me vs cs4236b, but its still very good. i tested with doom and keen4)

Edit1: Is Jazz Jackrabbit use the FM synth to play music ? im not sure which game play in sound blaster digital audio vs FM. im not even sure to understand the difference. And im not sure about MPU 401 too. ex: When a game play a music in sound blaster 16 220 i5 d1 .. does that means that the music is a wav file or something similar ? i know FM is midi. Thanks for help me to understand, honestly im confuse. 😀