VOGONS


First post, by hpxca

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I got this board for free from a guy in town who was downsizing his collection (photos near the bottom). I have put many days of time (and a bit of money in parts) into this thing and I haven't been able to get it to boot consistently on the first try. Here's what it does:

After it has been off for 10-15 min:

-The first time you power it on with all RAM/Video card installed, the POST troubleshooting card shows no codes at all, it acts like it is completely dead. All clocks are present (CPU clock - 50Mhz, BUS/SYS clock, 14Mhz, RTC oscillator, 32kHz). All voltages are good +5/-5/+12/-12. Cpu even gets a little warm if you let it run for a bit, but no POST codes ever appear.

RTC_cropped.jpg
SYS_CLK_cropped.jpg

I didn't take a photo of the CPU clock, but trust me it's there and it's a nice 50MHz sine wave as it should be.

-If you turn it off, then back on (2nd boot attempt) it will do one of a few things:
1. POST codes appear, but it stops booting with a code 06 or 07 (it varies a bit) and occasionally gives a beep code like it can't find the video card (even though it is there)
OR
2. A purple screen with artifacts is displayed by the video card as shown below, no beep codes and it seems to go into a boot loop with the codes on the POST card constantly cycling and repeating.
VERY RARELY
3. It repeats acting totally dead like the first attempt

Purple_Screen.JPG

-If you turn it off, then back on (3rd boot attempt)
1. It POSTS just fine, video is normal, completes the memory test and attempts to boot the OS (you can also access the CMOS setup with no issues - keyboard works fine)
RARELY
2. It repeats the one of the scenarios from the 2nd attempt

-If you turn it off, then back on (4th boot attempt)
1. It almost always POSTS just fine, normal video, completes the memory test and attempts to boot the OS

From this point forward if you turn it off then back on with little to no delay it will consistently POST without fail. Once you leave it off for 10-15 minutes this process repeats. No physical contact is made with the board during this time, it will do this over and over again even if no one even touches it.

The RAM/CPU/Cache/Video Card have all be proven to be good in other systems. It does this with or without the ULSI 387 installed. Both the clock oscillators for the SYS clock and the CPU clock were replaced, but mostly because the sockets were loose and they were not making good contact at the time. The battery was replaced with a "not-a-varta". Two known good CPUs have been tried. Two sets of RAM have been tried. Two sets of known good cache chips have been tried. The BIOS chip has been pulled and read in a programmer several times, the reads are always good, so I have no reason to suspect it.

The board is in extremely good physical condition photos of the front are below. It is also very clean with no visible corrosion, maybe some slight oxidation of some of the joints but most of those I touched up. I also went over all the pins of both the large UMC QFP chips to ensure there were no loose pins or cracked solder joints. The battery had already been removed from the board when I got it and there was little to no evidence of leakage. Either it didn't leak or the person who had it before did a good job of cleaning it up. There's no damage to the very few traces in the area of the battery. None of this work or replacement of parts has had any impact on the boards behavior.

RAM_Area.JPG
Board_Lower_Area.JPG
PCB_BACK.JPG

Other then the boot issues I have noticed two other things which may or may not be related to the problem:
1. I have two bench power supplies, one is an older ATX which has -5 and -12 with an AT adapter (when needed) and the other is an AT power supply that I re-capped and it works well. The board never boots with the ATX power supply. All the voltages are present, but it always acts completely dead with no POST codes at all. The differences in the voltages getting to the board are very small:

PSU +5 -5 +12 -12
AT 5.2 -4.7 +11.7 -11.4
ATX 4.9 -4.4 +12.2 -11.7

I have no idea why the board will not boot with the ATX supply connected via the adapter

2. Once it POSTS, in the CMOS setup if you watch the time ticks for the seconds on the real-time clock they are NOT consistently a second. Every 2nd or 3rd or 4th tick (it varies) is too long by perhaps an extra 0.5 seconds or so. It's just enough to be noticeable without some sort of precise timer. They are never too short, they are either 1 second (or so close that I can't tell) or a little too long.

After POST, usually on the 3rd or 4th try:
BIOS_STRING.JPG
INFO_SCREEN.JPG

I don't want to give up on it with it so close to being working but I am running out of ideas. I'm worried it's a flaky chipset and even though I can replace those QFPs it's a lot of work and I don't have the parts - it would be simpler just to get another board. I do have an oscilloscope and a good multimeter at my disposal, but I don't have a logic analyzer so I can't carry out any tests that require one 🙁

Reply 1 of 11, by Horun

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Ok, does it do the same with math-co removed and jumpered no-math ? Odd you do not get any good readings off the Diag card but not all early boards posted to port 80 iirc....and sometimes you needed to check a few diff slots.
Also do not rely on an ATX psu on an old 286/386 board, and do not use a cr2032 coin on one = my rules because they just have issues working proper in many situations or attempt to recharge it (bad thing).
Glad you got the board to post even if it takes a few tries. Probably have some leaky tantalum caps causing issues...

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 2 of 11, by chrismeyer6

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I would start with replacing the cmos battery. I've had many many boards over the years either play dead or act really strangely with a dead,low, or missing bios battery. Once the system posts can you get into your OS?

Reply 3 of 11, by rasz_pl

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Cmon guys! hpxca clearly stated he used not-a-varta and its even visible in the picture 😀

Problem starting can be due to bad Reset generating circuit, early on it was something super basic like capacitor to +5V.
Does it start from Glitched state after shorting Reset pins?

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 4 of 11, by hpxca

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@Horun @chrismeyer6
I've thought about replacing all the tantalums on the board but I have not done it. I may yet give that a shot - it's fairly cheap to try and easy to do and there are not that many. None of them look visibly damaged or burnt and in my experience bad tantalums usually either short, explode or darken/burn.

As for the battery, it is a not-a-varta and it has the OR current switch on the bottom. That IC acts like a diode with a very low forward bias voltage and a high enough reverse breakdown voltage that there's no risk to the battery from the boards charge current but the output voltage is still over 3V (with a good battery). With the CR2032 installed in the not-a-varta the CMOS saves work as expected.

@rasz_pl interesting thought, I actually never made myself a reset button with a few leads attached but it might be worth doing and looking at the reset circuit.

Aside from the first boot attempt it behaves so much like it can't find anything in the ISA bus and the way the video card misbehaves has made me think about replacing the some of the 74LS244 line drivers. Actually one of them is an Hitachi 74LS244 and the others are national 74F244, I don't know if there is a reason they used the two different parts but i'm a little worried there is. Some are between the ISA slots and difficult to get to as well.

Also worth noting is that this board is actually rated at 33/40 MHz bus speeds and I am running it at 25MHz since at 25MHz CPU is all I have. I don't think that should be a problem though but if someone knows for sure otherwise please let me know!

Reply 5 of 11, by hpxca

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I'm actually starting to suspect the 82C206 on this board. It seems to have everything in common with the unusual behavior:

-It handles the power good signal from the power supply, which could explain the strange behavior and difference between power supplies. When the power good is low, all address, data,data strobe and R/W pins are disconnected from the processor. This could explain the boot failures and no POST codes on the initial boot. Even though the power good is not low, all bets are off if the chip is faulty.
-It handles DMA and IRQ directly related to the ISA bus which could explain the strange boot behavior and video card issues on the 2nd boot attempt where it acts like can't find a video card or the video card puts out the purple screen.
-It handles the 32kHz square wave generated by the RTC oscillator and contains the actual RTC implementation, which could explain the odd RTC "ticks" in the CMOS setup after it finally boots.

Its going to be a bitch to get off of there without damaging those ISA slots though, and I don't have an vaccum de-soldering station 🙁

Last edited by hpxca on 2024-05-03, 13:55. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 6 of 11, by rasz_pl

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how about you try resetting it first? or putting scope on reset line in single shot mode.

>Aside from the first boot attempt it behaves so much like it can't find anything in the ISA bus

yes, any card can do this without seeing reset signal

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 7 of 11, by hpxca

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Yes, i'll give that a try before I try to remove the 82C206. Rather then make one I just ordered a https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B09W3XFSR2 off amazon to make that a little simpler. I'll also take a good look at the pins and traces around the 82C206.

Reply 8 of 11, by hpxca

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So I checked the ISA reset line (pin 2 of the ISA slot on the bottom row), it looks normal. It stays low the entire time after the system is powered on, going high only for a millisecond or so as the system powers down. This was the case on attempts when the system both did and did not POST including attempts when it gave the "no video card beep code" when there was one installed. When the reset button is pressed the reset line pulses high for about 100ms before dropping back low again and the system resets as it should. The problem is the same whether I reset it via the button or by power cycling the entire system.

Reply 9 of 11, by rasz_pl

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You said it did work after power cycling, so does it start working after manual reset? or do you need keep resetting to get it to work? or it doesnt help at all?

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 11 of 11, by hpxca

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@raz_pl It's the same cycle whether I use the reset switch or the power switch, meaning I need to either power cycle it 3-4 times or reset it 3-4 times (or any combination there of) to get it to POST.

After messing with it for more hours tonight I figured in for a penny in for a pound. An eBay seller had new old stock of that UMC82C206F for a fairly reasonable price so I bought one. I removed the old one (thank the can of perrier I had just drank and some kapton tape for the heat shield). I think the ISA slot came out of the deal intact. Will be several weeks until I get the replacement though.

chip_off.JPG

Really hope this is it, I think we're beyond economical at this point anyway.