HanJammer wrote on 2022-06-03, 23:35:

I'm pulling them from machines I'm scrapping at work all the time... 😮

Keep them all (EE editions) because they are insanely expensive as a collector's item.

BetaC wrote on 2022-06-04, 05:59:

I'm happy to say I now own a Beige Beast that beats my LC II in raw performance despite being three years older.

I mean, that's not exactly a high bar, now is it?

I like the se/30, but in my view, the compact macs are best suited for the 68000. If I get into the 030 era, having a monitor that you don't need to sit 6 inches away from is my choice.

It's like wanting to use an 386 processor Osborne and it's post card size screen.

luckybob wrote on 2022-06-04, 06:08:

I mean, that's not exactly a high bar, now is it? […]
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BetaC wrote on 2022-06-04, 05:59:

I'm happy to say I now own a Beige Beast that beats my LC II in raw performance despite being three years older.

I mean, that's not exactly a high bar, now is it?

I like the se/30, but in my view, the compact macs are best suited for the 68000. If I get into the 030 era, having a monitor that you don't need to sit 6 inches away from is my choice.

It's like wanting to use an 386 processor Osborne and it's post card size screen.

Yeah, I totally get that sentiment. In my case, though, having ADB makes everything so much easier. I can use the same AEKII on this, my IIGS, my LC II, my 7100/80AV and my G3 B&W.

BetaC wrote on 2022-06-04, 05:59:

I'm happy to say I now own a Beige Beast that beats my LC II in raw performance despite being three years older.

nice find! I also have a SE/30 - it offers the extra ooomppff needed to enjoy things nowdays IMHO
I have invested in a scsi2sd and an ethernet card for it - both really help make things more enjoyable

keep in mind that you best recap the motherboard - those original smd electrolytics are dangerous

edit: oh also added the BMOW ROM-inator II - it really helps to squeeze more from the system

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-06-04, 01:26:

Didn't the world once hold that same sentiment, about most things which eventually became a rare or desirable antiquity, years or decades later? I think that people who are collecting P4 now, are doing so in the "down cycle", while they are indeed seen as cheap and not desirable. Which, in the longer term scheme of things (for traders and collectors), may not be the silliest strategy.

Well, yes, and no. Things become collectible and desired when they are rare. CPU production volume wasn't even close to the early 2000s' or today's production. So when some variants may be a more rare than others...
Yet another important factor when it comes to old computer hardware is what you can do with it. While 3dfx voodoo 1-3 is desirable because it allows you to play glide games (and frequently it was only glide or no acceleration at all when these cards were released) or some 486 CPUs are desirable because they offer perfect blend of being fast but not too fast for mid-90s games - same can't be said about any CPU from 2000s - because if something runs under WinXP - it will almost always without too much effort run perfectly well on Win10/11 on a modern machine...
And like I said, Core2Duos or Pentium D are still found in the machines used nowadays... so I don't think they will ever become as desirable as 486 or even early Pentium CPUs... hence I was surprised OP mentioned it would be worth a lot of money if somebody noticed it's EE 😮

HanJammer wrote on 2022-06-04, 15:53:

so I don't think they will ever become as desirable as 486 or even early Pentium CPUs... hence I was surprised OP mentioned it would be worth a lot of money if somebody noticed it's EE 😮

That's exactly why I started collecting them in the first place. Cheap, readily available, easy to find in e-waste, no legs to break off, almost nobody collects them. I don't do it to make a profit, I just do it for fun. There are more than 300 production models available so it's going to take a long time. One thing is certain: I almost never see an EE model on local auctions or Ebay so I consider them rare.

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-06-04, 01:26:

But personally! (on the other hand!) - P4s and similar generations aren't going to ever hold interest for me, because I don't have important personal nostalgia to them or the software they run, and never will. I didn't even bother to use them much when they were popular, so I'm certainly not going to yearn to do so later in life!

While I had a P4 computer for a long time and have some nostalgia of it, I personally find them (and similar generations) closer to a modern computer (just with slower and less capable hardware) and have no interest in getting one of these again.

HanJammer wrote on 2022-06-04, 15:53:

Yet another important factor when it comes to old computer hardware is what you can do with it. While 3dfx voodoo 1-3 is desirable because it allows you to play glide games (and frequently it was only glide or no acceleration at all when these cards were released) or some 486 CPUs are desirable because they offer perfect blend of being fast but not too fast for mid-90s games - same can't be said about any CPU from 2000s - because if something runs under WinXP - it will almost always without too much effort run perfectly well on Win10/11 on a modern machine...
And like I said, Core2Duos or Pentium D are still found in the machines used nowadays... so I don't think they will ever become as desirable as 486 or even early Pentium CPUs... hence I was surprised OP mentioned it would be worth a lot of money if somebody noticed it's EE 😮

I agree, most of the 2000s computers aren't appealing to me for that reason.

I guess in 20 years time we'll know for sure, but it's worth noting that not everyone is in the hobby for the same reasons. Some people just like messing around with computers, doesn't matter if they're old, new, nostalgic or not.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2022-06-04, 17:15:

HanJammer wrote on 2022-06-04, 15:53:

Yet another important factor when it comes to old computer hardware is what you can do with it. While 3dfx voodoo 1-3 is desirable because it allows you to play glide games (and frequently it was only glide or no acceleration at all when these cards were released) or some 486 CPUs are desirable because they offer perfect blend of being fast but not too fast for mid-90s games - same can't be said about any CPU from 2000s - because if something runs under WinXP - it will almost always without too much effort run perfectly well on Win10/11 on a modern machine...
And like I said, Core2Duos or Pentium D are still found in the machines used nowadays... so I don't think they will ever become as desirable as 486 or even early Pentium CPUs... hence I was surprised OP mentioned it would be worth a lot of money if somebody noticed it's EE 😮

I agree, most of the 2000s computers aren't appealing to me for that reason.

As I see the 2000s (XP) are/will be the last retro era. They still had/experimented with some quirky stuff, EAX was still a thing and there was some brief hype around physics accelerators, games still released on discs, mostly without online DRM. From that era there are still plenty of stuff to collect and use in an authentic way. Especially since a lot of games from that time aren't available as a digital release either at all or they are replaced with their remaster if they have one.

After XP everything became a lot more uniform, less reliant on specific platforms, but at the same time more reliant on online services. Services that at some point will stop supporting old versions of Windows. Like I expect Steam will stop supporting Windows 7 in the next 2-4 years locking us out of (legal copies of) most of our games. And as sad as it is, gaming consoles are heading the same direction, if they aren't already there.

RandomStranger wrote on 2022-06-04, 18:07:

EAX was still a thing and there was some brief hype around physics accelerators

I see hardware-accelerated EAX thru DirectSound3D the only possible exception to the rule because the audio stack was rewritten since Windows Vista. Standalone physics accelerators (PPU) were interesting and although they aren't supported anymore, the idea of accelerated physics still lives thru GPGPU (most notable one being PhysX when nVidia bought Ageia and made a CUDA-accelerated implementation for GeForce 8 and higher).

devius wrote on 2022-06-04, 17:24:

I guess in 20 years time we'll know for sure, but it's worth noting that not everyone is in the hobby for the same reasons. Some people just like messing around with computers, doesn't matter if they're old, new, nostalgic or not.

^^

I think the late P4/Core2 era hardware has enough going for it.
It's the last Intel platform that will have AGP with later P4 and Core2 having the first iterations of PCI-e (I see some similarities to a 486 with VLB vs with PCI).
Also Core2 is somewhat legendary by how huge a jump in performance it was and P4 was interesting in how it was something of a technological dead end.
It's also roughly the era when for instance floppy and IDE connectors were still common for the last time (IDE more so, floppy was by this time already somewhat moribund). Hardware that was the last to support all these legacy connectors (not just storage but also things like serial/ps2/parallel/etc) will probably gather interest in the soon to be retro world. This is something of a given.

And personally I'm not really sure the 486 will become even more popular (I'm guessing its popularity will remain somewhat stable for the time being, especially since we have ss7 and C3 slowdown systems) even though I personally see it as an interesting and awesome platform in its own right! 486 has become wayyy more popular since I started this hobby and back then there were people telling us 486 would never become rare or collectible.

I am pretty sure P4 and Core2 will become rare and collectible. And yes this may take 20 years 😋

Just ordered this.

PowerComputing PowerTower 180e.
PowerPC 604e 195 MHz
348MB RAM
2GB 7200RPM hard drive
4GB 7200RPM hard drive
Dual port USB expansion card
Ethernet
IXMicro Twin Turbo 128MB graphics
Floppy + CD-ROM

keropi wrote on 2022-06-04, 09:50:

nice find! I also have a SE/30 - it offers the extra ooomppff needed to enjoy things nowdays IMHO I have invested in a scsi2sd a […]
Show full quote

BetaC wrote on 2022-06-04, 05:59:

I'm happy to say I now own a Beige Beast that beats my LC II in raw performance despite being three years older.

nice find! I also have a SE/30 - it offers the extra ooomppff needed to enjoy things nowdays IMHO
I have invested in a scsi2sd and an ethernet card for it - both really help make things more enjoyable

keep in mind that you best recap the motherboard - those original smd electrolytics are dangerous

edit: oh also added the BMOW ROM-inator II - it really helps to squeeze more from the system

Lucky for me only one of the radials has leaked, and it’s only corroded the top of the leg rather than the board. And for now, I’m good with the SCSI drive already in there, as my SCSI2SD is in my 7100, which provides more than enough oomph for my classic needs.

wiretap wrote on 2022-06-04, 20:01:

Just ordered this. […]
Show full quote

Just ordered this.

PowerComputing PowerTower 180e.
PowerPC 604e 195 MHz
348MB RAM
2GB 7200RPM hard drive
4GB 7200RPM hard drive
Dual port USB expansion card
Ethernet
IXMicro Twin Turbo 128MB graphics
Floppy + CD-ROM

Nice, that's something different. PowerMac Clone?

Yes, clone machine. 😀

HanJammer wrote on 2022-06-04, 15:53:

Well, yes, and no. Things become collectible and desired when they are rare. CPU production volume wasn't even close to the earl […]
Show full quote

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-06-04, 01:26:

Didn't the world once hold that same sentiment, about most things which eventually became a rare or desirable antiquity, years or decades later? I think that people who are collecting P4 now, are doing so in the "down cycle", while they are indeed seen as cheap and not desirable. Which, in the longer term scheme of things (for traders and collectors), may not be the silliest strategy.

Well, yes, and no. Things become collectible and desired when they are rare. CPU production volume wasn't even close to the early 2000s' or today's production. So when some variants may be a more rare than others...
Yet another important factor when it comes to old computer hardware is what you can do with it. While 3dfx voodoo 1-3 is desirable because it allows you to play glide games (and frequently it was only glide or no acceleration at all when these cards were released) or some 486 CPUs are desirable because they offer perfect blend of being fast but not too fast for mid-90s games - same can't be said about any CPU from 2000s - because if something runs under WinXP - it will almost always without too much effort run perfectly well on Win10/11 on a modern machine...
And like I said, Core2Duos or Pentium D are still found in the machines used nowadays... so I don't think they will ever become as desirable as 486 or even early Pentium CPUs... hence I was surprised OP mentioned it would be worth a lot of money if somebody noticed it's EE 😮

Points acknowledged. They apply, today. However, a couple of decades time can change a lot. Every generation thinks theirs was unique in so many ways. e.g. "The gear that I used when I was a teenager is special, because da-da-da-da... however, the gear the today's teenagers use, will not be the same to them when they reach my age!".

Such "my generation is unique" sentiments rarely survive the passage of decades.

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-06-04, 21:31:

Points acknowledged. They apply, today. However, a couple of decades time can change a lot. Every generation thinks theirs was unique in so many ways. e.g. "The gear that I used when I was a teenager is special, because da-da-da-da... however, the gear the today's teenagers use, will not be the same to them when they reach my age!".

Such "my generation is unique" sentiments rarely survive the passage of decades.

I will argue that in case of computers and this forum in particular it really comes down to the software you can run. Of course there are collectors who are will be willing to pay idiotic sums for things with not much value (only because they are too lazy to source them out of auctions and so on) but for most who are "collecting" stuff to actually use it at some point - it makes no sense playing 20 year old games on the period correct machine if it runs perfectly good on modern PC (better actually). I recently played through some of my favorite titles (e.g. Ground Control, UT'99, DeusEx, Quake III Arena) on my Ryzen 9 and it was excellent experience, so why would I play it on the horribly noisy, slow ass period correct Athlon? 😉 There is also another aspect - just the whole vintage hardware experience... while AGP equipped hardware was still in many ways similar to the 90s PCs - everything more recent is not really different than modern PCs - well, maybe it will have IDE and floppy drive controller but that's it... I don't think PCIe will go away for the next 10 years or so... so there is no such thing as 'vintage hardware experience' with this stuff...

HanJammer wrote on 2022-06-04, 22:41:

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-06-04, 21:31:

Points acknowledged. They apply, today. However, a couple of decades time can change a lot. Every generation thinks theirs was unique in so many ways. e.g. "The gear that I used when I was a teenager is special, because da-da-da-da... however, the gear the today's teenagers use, will not be the same to them when they reach my age!".

Such "my generation is unique" sentiments rarely survive the passage of decades.

I will argue that in case of computers and this forum in particular it really comes down to the software you can run. Of course there are collectors who are will be willing to pay idiotic sums for things with not much value (only because they are too lazy to source them out of auctions and so on) but for most who are "collecting" stuff to actually use it at some point - it makes no sense playing 20 year old games on the period correct machine if it runs perfectly good on modern PC (better actually).

Your whole argument relies upon the assumption that the current situation will remain the same. That future generations of computers for 30-50 years will still hold that property true: "I can play 2000s games natively".

Again I repeat, that is highly unlikely to eventuate. We have thousands of years of recorded history to prove the concept that the only constant, is Change.

In the year 2000, it was still quite easy to play games from 1980 "natively", with a few tweaks. i.e. exactly the same way you feel now, in 2022, about year 2000 games.

Add another 20-30 years to the equation, and that is almost certainly no longer the case.

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-06-04, 23:11:

Your whole argument relies upon the assumption that the current situation will remain the same. That future generations of compu […]
Show full quote

HanJammer wrote on 2022-06-04, 22:41:

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-06-04, 21:31:

Points acknowledged. They apply, today. However, a couple of decades time can change a lot. Every generation thinks theirs was unique in so many ways. e.g. "The gear that I used when I was a teenager is special, because da-da-da-da... however, the gear the today's teenagers use, will not be the same to them when they reach my age!".

Such "my generation is unique" sentiments rarely survive the passage of decades.

I will argue that in case of computers and this forum in particular it really comes down to the software you can run. Of course there are collectors who are will be willing to pay idiotic sums for things with not much value (only because they are too lazy to source them out of auctions and so on) but for most who are "collecting" stuff to actually use it at some point - it makes no sense playing 20 year old games on the period correct machine if it runs perfectly good on modern PC (better actually).

Your whole argument relies upon the assumption that the current situation will remain the same. That future generations of computers for 30-50 years will still hold that property true: "I can play 2000s games natively".

Again I repeat, that is highly unlikely to eventuate. We have thousands of years of recorded history to prove the concept that the only constant, is Change.

In the year 2000, it was still quite easy to play games from 1980 "natively", with a few tweaks. i.e. exactly the same way you feel now, in 2022, about year 2000 games.

Add another 20-30 years to the equation, and that is almost certainly no longer the case.

Agreed 🙂
And well said 😀

It's partially about seeing the bigger picture here.

Imo when it comes to retro gaming, the future will have a tough challenge in somehow faithfully reproducing the gaming experience for games which depend on an internet connection and a platform like Steam to download it. The platform will at some point no longer support legacy hardware and sooner or later modern hardware will no longer work with legacy OSes, so this change is a given.

I mean I remember the basically exact same arguments 15 years ago, talking with people about how they argued that 486 would never become collectible because it was just clone hardware, it was nothing special, millions were sold and there's no reason to save them before they're all recycled, yada yada and well that certainly didn't pan out the way those people expected it and I'm not surprised. It's just logical. It's really common knowledge at this point and yes even youtube knows this now.
The same thing is still happening right now except the hardware talked about has changed along with how times have changed 😋

It's really quite logical what will come to pass, whether one chooses to believe it or not is not really relevant.
So if one cares about the late hyperthreading platform and Core2, now is the time to get what you fancy 🤗 (unless you want to wait and then 20 years later find yourself in a thread (or modern equivalent) complaining about how scalpers are making the hobby too expensive or something 😜 ).

There is however the caveat that, for all we know, emulation will go down a part that none of us foresees right now. heck for all we know in 20 years time we can actually 3D print pre-Windows hardware at home easily with there being virtually no need for the originals anymore to get a proper retro experience!
In the end only time can really tell 🙂

I do think there's some merit to thinking that the situation won't be fully the same in 20 years, though. While there will be nostalgia for a lot of stuff, I can't help but think that Pentium 4 related stuff specifically will probably stay relatively low price. A lot of people remember a dell hunk of junk when they see the P4 logo. It probably won't have the positive memories that a lot of people have for stuff that's just as old, like the iPod. Hell, unmodded N64s are becoming ridiculous in some places.