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P166 MMX box, Win95 or 98SE?

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First post, by Amigaz

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My boss at work let me inherit a bunch of Gateway 2000 G5-166 Pentium 166MMX Midi tower boxes...so I save him the trouble of recycling them, hehe
I took one home yesterday to start and build a nice SVGA/GLide game box out of it...since the chassi and components are very well made.
The question is..shall I install Win95C or Win98SE on it?
I'm not 100% sure if some early Win95 games need components from Win95 to run peoperly or if Win98 is as good as Win95 to run games in a dosbox within Windows?

My retro computer stuff: https://lychee.jjserver.net/#16136303902327

Reply 1 of 33, by swaaye

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95C is much faster than 98 because of a lighter explorer shell. Caveats to 95C include mostly-useless USB support and limited AGP support, but those are unimportant for such a machine.

Other caveat is that it's hard to get some modern apps to run due to lack of libraries and certain functionality. Of course, this is true of 98SE as well, but it is somewhat better than 95C. IE 5.5 is the limit. Firefox/Opera are tricky to get working. IE 5.5 does the job well enough and it's not like you'll want to be browsing the modern day WWW much on there anyway.

I'd go 95C. I have a 5x86 with 95C on it right now. Generally I only go to 98SE if it's at least a P2 or K6.

Reply 2 of 33, by prophase_j

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Sounds like an exciting project. I recently thought about building a high spec Pentium or Pentium Pro machine for the same kind of stuff. I was thinking along the lines of a nice S3 card and a first gen Voodoo for video, a CT2230 /w a XG daughterboard.

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Radeon 9800xt // Voodoo2 SLI
Diamond MX300 // SB AWE64 Gold

Reply 3 of 33, by prozoam

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That's exactly what I'm doing now with a Dell Optiplex Gs+. It has a 200Mhz Pentium MMX and onboard S3 Trio64V+. I'm putting in a Diamond Monster 3D card and a AWE32 CT3980 w/ DB50XG (or clone).

Reply 4 of 33, by prophase_j

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What impact do you think the MMX features would have, if any? That's one of the considerations I have for choosing the route I want to go. I'm not sure what games are playable with these speeds and if they even have MMX support, or if it would be better to have the monster FPU from the Pentium Pro, since it would seem to provide more of a universal benefit. I'm aware that there is a MMX Pentium Pro overdrive, but I don't think I want to go that route.

@Prozoam: So what are you using for your OS?

"Retro Rocket"
Athlon XP-M 2200+ // Epox 8KTA3
Radeon 9800xt // Voodoo2 SLI
Diamond MX300 // SB AWE64 Gold

Reply 5 of 33, by swaaye

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Pentium MMX has 32K L1 cache vs 16K for Pentium Classic which is what had the most impact on its speed. There are only a few "tech demo" games that have MMX support from those days. I know of POD and Rebel Moon Rising offhand, both of which are not that great.

I think the best example of heavy MMX use in games is Unreal. The game uses MMX for its audio engine and 3D software renderer (which was incredible btw). The rest of the game also has some limited use of 3DNow and KNI (SSE). Unfortunately a Pentium MMX is really too slow for that game unless you could crank it to 300 MHz maybe. An interesting catch with PPro running Unreal is that Unreal will automatically set you to low quality audio since you lack MMX (you can tweak the INI to set it back tho). A PPro at 233 MHz runs Unreal fairly well but you really want more like a P2 400 for that game or you'll be chugging when there's any significant action going on.

The PPro FPU definitely helps with 3D games, but you're still talking about a chip that's somewhat slower than a Pentium II and only at 200 MHz officially. Pentium II not only adds MMX, but also fixes 8/16-bit code execution speed and bumps the L1 to 32K like with PMMX. This must have been a happy size going by how P3 Tualatin also has 32K. Sure the L2 is sorta gimped by being half speed, but it was also 2x the size of the most popular PPro (256K) and the PII's clock speed ramped up like crazy too.

The PPro Overdrive is basically a Xeon CPU (512K cache) turned into a PPro-shaped circuit board with pins. It's only 333 MHz though, vs 400 MHz for the original Slot 2 Xeons. And it would have to deal with that gimpy PPro 66MHz bus with EDO DRAM.

Reply 6 of 33, by Malik

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I just finished (re)building a Pentium Classic based machine.

It's MSI 5169 mobo with Pentium 200 MMX. Complemented by S3 Virge and Voodoo2. I opted for Win95C. It's faster for this class of cpus and some early Win95 (albeit very few) games run better, though, theoritically, Win98 is supposed to be fully backwards compatible.

GLQuake runs fine at 640x480. I thought of installing the Voodoo 4500 AGP and review the fps again in GLQuake at 1024x768 res.

5476332566_7480a12517_t.jpgSB Dos Drivers

Reply 7 of 33, by prozoam

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I'm using 95.

I considered going with a PPro, but I figured the slight benefit with the small amount of 32-bit code I would be running wouldn't outweigh the possibility of a performance decrease on 16-bit code vs. a similarly clocked PMMX.

Reply 9 of 33, by elianda

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Well maybe you should also consider NT4 Pro depending on what you need for features in Windows.
With NT4 you get Glide, OpenGL, DirectDraw upto DX5 which is sufficient for most 2D Win games. For Glide it is a bit faster than Win9x and 2D Win32 Acceleration is about 5 times faster than under Win9x, specifically BitBlt. (I have benched alot on this)
There is also decent USB support available.
NT4 is often considered not as a suitable gaming OS and if you need Direct3D thats true. But for the games that run under NT4 it is mostly the better/faster option.
It is abit forgotten in this area 😀

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Reply 10 of 33, by Amigaz

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elianda wrote:
Well maybe you should also consider NT4 Pro depending on what you need for features in Windows. With NT4 you get Glide, OpenGL, […]
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Well maybe you should also consider NT4 Pro depending on what you need for features in Windows.
With NT4 you get Glide, OpenGL, DirectDraw upto DX5 which is sufficient for most 2D Win games. For Glide it is a bit faster than Win9x and 2D Win32 Acceleration is about 5 times faster than under Win9x, specifically BitBlt. (I have benched alot on this)
There is also decent USB support available.
NT4 is often considered not as a suitable gaming OS and if you need Direct3D thats true. But for the games that run under NT4 it is mostly the better/faster option.
It is abit forgotten in this area 😀

I have a brand new OEM NT4 sp3 here...can I dual boot Win98SE and NT4?

My retro computer stuff: https://lychee.jjserver.net/#16136303902327

Reply 11 of 33, by WolverineDK

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Amigaz wrote:
elianda wrote:
Well maybe you should also consider NT4 Pro depending on what you need for features in Windows. With NT4 you get Glide, OpenGL, […]
Show full quote

Well maybe you should also consider NT4 Pro depending on what you need for features in Windows.
With NT4 you get Glide, OpenGL, DirectDraw upto DX5 which is sufficient for most 2D Win games. For Glide it is a bit faster than Win9x and 2D Win32 Acceleration is about 5 times faster than under Win9x, specifically BitBlt. (I have benched alot on this)
There is also decent USB support available.
NT4 is often considered not as a suitable gaming OS and if you need Direct3D thats true. But for the games that run under NT4 it is mostly the better/faster option.
It is abit forgotten in this area 😀

I have a brand new OEM NT4 sp3 here...can I dual boot Win98SE and NT4?

What about using a seperate harddrive ?

Reply 12 of 33, by Amigaz

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WolverineDK wrote:
Amigaz wrote:
elianda wrote:
Well maybe you should also consider NT4 Pro depending on what you need for features in Windows. With NT4 you get Glide, OpenGL, […]
Show full quote

Well maybe you should also consider NT4 Pro depending on what you need for features in Windows.
With NT4 you get Glide, OpenGL, DirectDraw upto DX5 which is sufficient for most 2D Win games. For Glide it is a bit faster than Win9x and 2D Win32 Acceleration is about 5 times faster than under Win9x, specifically BitBlt. (I have benched alot on this)
There is also decent USB support available.
NT4 is often considered not as a suitable gaming OS and if you need Direct3D thats true. But for the games that run under NT4 it is mostly the better/faster option.
It is abit forgotten in this area 😀

I have a brand new OEM NT4 sp3 here...can I dual boot Win98SE and NT4?

What about using a seperate harddrive ?

I have an 8gig hdd and a 20gig hdd inside this machine.
I tried to install both win95 and win98 to be able to dual boot but I couldn't install any of the above if one of them was already installed since they are some weird OEM versions...

My retro computer stuff: https://lychee.jjserver.net/#16136303902327

Reply 13 of 33, by retro games 100

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Can I join in with some general P166 MMX discussion please?

I threw together these bits n pieces below, and installed win95c on it. All seemed well. Then I installed the Via Apollo "4 in 1" chipset package, which destroyed everything. Maybe it was "pilot error", who knows? I wiped the HDD and put win98 on it. All seemed well again. And this time, the Via driver package installed without wrecking everything.

Speedsys gives me a score of 126.27 for this P166 MMX powered Chaintech rig.

@Malik: I must get around to testing the MSI 5169 mobo!

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Reply 15 of 33, by retro games 100

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h-a-l-9000 wrote:

What do you expect of VIA?

I'm not sure, as I haven't had much experience with their mobos. Are they known to be problematic? (I'm guessing that your answer is going to "yes..")

Reply 17 of 33, by retro games 100

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swaaye wrote:

Super 7 mobos suck and most of the suckage emanates from the AGP slot. That's about all that needs to be said.

😢
Are there any specific games/tests that I can run, to see this "suckage" for myself? I tried a small handful, the usual suspects like Doom, Quake, Hexen, 3D Realms' titles, bla bla, and they seemed ok to me. The mobo's BIOS has a "2x AGP" option which I enabled, and the VIA chipset driver had an "AGP turbo mode", whatever that means, which appeared to install OK.

I dunno, it seems alright to me, but then again, I need to try out a few difficult to run games to see how it copes with them...

Reply 18 of 33, by swaaye

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The AGP port is going to be unstable with most AGP cards. Voodoo cards will work fine though as they are basically PCI cards. The instability usually shows up as random freezes or crashing in 3d games. It might happen in 5 mins or after an hour. Hell, some cards will refuse to do D3D at all. It's both power related and buggy AGP implementation related.

Don't enable AGP 2x or anything called Turbo mode in the BIOS. That will probably exacerbate the flakyness.

The problems are mobo, video card and chipset related. Poorly programmed BIOSs and low quality mobos combined with a first generation AGP implementation. Video cards that started to pull too much power from the AGP slot on boards that never imagined a GPU like a GeForce 2...

What video card are you using?

Reply 19 of 33, by Amigaz

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I can tell you that these AGP troubles doesn't apply to my Epox EP-MVP3G2 or EP-MVP3G5 I own.
I've trown Geforce 265, Geforce 2 Ti, Geforce 2 MX, Geforce 3 cards at it without any troubles
I'm using a Geforce FX 5200 in it now...all of the cards have worked flawlessly
My boards are from 1998-99 and among the last SS7 boards ever made which might explain why it works so well....most bugs were ironed out

My retro computer stuff: https://lychee.jjserver.net/#16136303902327