bytesaber wrote:

DOS joysticks used DB15 connectors, which carried 4 analog axes and 4 buttons (originally intended for use with two 2-axis, 2-button analog joysticks). The most fancy of DOS joysticks, which used special encodings to add more buttons, top hats, etc. required specific game support rather than using drivers.

I thought I remember twisting some joysticks for a 3rd axis. Z-axis maybe? If so, was this not possible in pure dos on a joystick port to do a z-axis spin? I really thought I did that in TIE Fighter.

I can't seem to find a joystick that has the twist that is not called a "digital" one. The Sidewinder 3D Pro (i think that's the first one) is considered digital but yet it has DB15. Can anyone clarify this for me what i'm missing? DB15 can be analog but also digital? And later ones with DB15 could be converted to USB?

That's right, some joysticks are digital and require game-specific support, some sort of TSR, or Windows drivers. I doubt a USB-to-DB15 adapter will work with anything more complicated than analog sticks.

I thought the general consensus was that TIE Fighter played superbly with a mouse.

The use of "digital" when describing DB15 joysticks is just a marketing term used to describe the fact that the joystick encodes data on the analog axis input lines using voltage stepping or whatever. Drivers or game-specific support is required because the PC's DB15 joystick standard was not meant to work that way.

Also, it's quite possible to have a joystick with a Z-axis (or a rudder) and a throttle by using the two axes that are meant for a second joystick. Since the DB15 connector has 4 analog axes and 4 button inputs, you can have X/Y/Z/throttle plus 4 buttons without needing to do any special "digital" encoding. I think that most fancy "digital" joysticks used the special encoding more for doing hats and extra buttons.

TIE Fighter with a mouse is silly. I remember watching my cousin try it back when it was new; he was frantically dragging is mouse around and repeatedly lifting it off the mousepad when it hit the edge. It was a hilarious scene.

A bit more than marketing, joystick port is analog, but for joysticks like the sidewinder, communication is digital(BTW here are DOS sidewinder drivers /w source & explanation of how it functions: http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade_downloads.shtml#Drivers ,) their tracking is also said to be digital(maybe that's the marketing part.) Then there's the Gravis Gamepad that operates differently again, by using hardwired position values, pegged to 0/50/100k ohms.

Yea the Sidewinders are quite special. Under Windows however, they are fully digital or something like that.

Some other bits I remember:

There was a Competition Pro type joystick with 15pin connector.

You could also get an ISA card which had 2x 9 pin connectors (C64, Mega Drive, Amiga) and use those joystick. For many DOS Games this was a pain, as many games used 2 buttons.

I had such a card and a Blue "see through" Competition Pro and I modded a second cable for the second button 😁

This was terrific for games such as Battle Isle or some Tennis Game (something something 2)

Ok. Well if z-axis was possible on real dos with no driver, do you know of such an existing joystick? Did one with a hat, rudder, and all the fixings ever exist as analog? Was digital meant to even be used in DOS?

The Sidewinder 3D Pro looks tempting because it says it did the analog emulation for the old heroic Thrustmaster and CH. But some googling suggests not even those had a z-axis.

Remember that the 15 pin connector supported 2 joysticks and a total of 4 buttons.

Sticks with hat and rudder simply used the buttons and axis of the 2nd joystick (which wasn't connected).

Gravis made a futuristic looking one. I had one. It has a nice base, a hat, flight stick, and a little wheel for the throttle. But it didn't have rudder AFAIK.

It was the best stick I ever had. It was fantastic for space sim games such as Wing Commander, Privateer, Privateer 2, and especially Wing Commander Prophecy.

Also really awesome for Descent.

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

You could also get an ISA card which had 2x 9 pin connectors (C64, Mega Drive, Amiga) and use those joystick. For many DOS Games this was a pain, as many games used 2 buttons.

Funny. Aren't the DB9 joysticks digital in the sense that up/down/left/right are encoded as on/off states rather than analog axes? I know the Atari 2600 ones are that way, although I think they did have two analog lines that were only used for paddles (knob-like controllers for racing games and whatnot).

Yes they are digital!

And that ISA card was for that exact purpose!

The thing is, back then emulation wasn't around. That didn't take off until years later...

Just thought of this. Alot of Joysticks I see that are DB15, sometimes show a plug to add on or chain other DB15 devices.

Instead of rudder controls in the joystick twist (z-axis), could you hook up rudder pedals?

Such an example exist in db15 land?

I meant for TIE Fighter or X Wing in real dos.

I don't see why not!

After all it's just a resistor reading.

The cable you describe is to hook up 2 joysticks. On the back of the PC there is just a single connector, but it has the pins for 2 joysticks. So if you want to hook up 2 joysticks you need a splitter cable.

There are even cables that have MIDI + 2 joystick ports, because the joystick port is also the connector for MIDI devices.

In pure/real DOS you're going to be limited by what the game supports. In DOSBox you can map things around and do whatever you want, but newer versions of Windows no longer support DB15 joystick ports.

I've been looking around ebay a bit today. Thrustmasters appear to have had all the good stuff working. Side controls, Rudder Pedals, and well made Flight Sticks. But.... common.... who wants to pilot a TIE Advanced with a "TopGun" ? Everything they made looks like it mimics real life aircraft. Call me weird but it seems kinda boring.

HunterZ wrote:

In pure/real DOS you're going to be limited by what the game supports. In DOSBox you can map things around and do whatever you want, but newer versions of Windows no longer support DB15 joystick ports.

About that: does that mean a USB-to-DB15 adapter isn't going to do anything at all?

I think I read something a while ago about restoring the game controllers applet in Vista.

Jorpho wrote:

HunterZ wrote:

In pure/real DOS you're going to be limited by what the game supports. In DOSBox you can map things around and do whatever you want, but newer versions of Windows no longer support DB15 joystick ports.

About that: does that mean a USB-to-DB15 adapter isn't going to do anything at all?

If by USB-to-DB15 you mean a USB adapter that lets you plug in DB15 joysticks, then that should work.

I think I read something a while ago about restoring the game controllers applet in Vista.

That's not the problem. The problem is Windows Vista and Windows 7 won't let you install gameport adapter drivers. I found this out after I tried putting an old SB Live in my Win7 desktop. Apparently Microsoft removed support on purpose because they felt that a polled input port was a drag on system performance.

I also heard that Daniel K got Creative gameport drivers working in 32-bit Vista, but that they don't work in x64.

Wait, this is confusing. Doesn't a USB adapter for DB15 joysticks ultimately have the same configuration requirements as a "gameport adapter" ?

What do you mean by configuration requirements?

Whoops, my bad. I misinterpreted you.

I should really just try it out myself and see what happens. 🤐

.

Topics : Game Port Cards / Joysticks / Suncom F15E WCS & Joysticks

This article from COMPUTE! Issue 140 May 1992 discusses some of the Flight Control Joysticks that have been discussed here.

http://www.atarimagazines.com/compute/issue14 … ake_control.php

Plus the Kraft Thunderstick.

Also a 3 Dual Game Port Card roundup which includes the Kraft Programmable MultiSpeed and the Suncom's GamePort 2 Plus....as well as the well known CH Gamecard III Automatic and Gravis Eliminator.

However, if you're going to be using more than one joystick-port device (such as two joysticks and rudder pedals), you'll need to attach Y cables to the single joystick port on the back of the sound card. I've heard reports of incompatibilities with such setups and the Sound Blaster Pro card, so you might be better off just buying a game card with two joystick ports.

Both Kraft and CH manufacture dualport cards that will automatically adjust to your PC's speed, and both include calibration software on disk. The Kraft Programmable MultiSpeed Game Card will autoadjust to speeds up to 35 MHz, while the CH GameCard III Automatic will work at up to 50 MHz. Suncom's GamePort 2 Plus card works only up to 16 MHz and requires you to manually change switches on the back of the board to alter the card's speed.

Advanced Gravis Eliminator Game Card takes a unique approach to the calibration problem, offering an [manual] external adjustment dial that plugs into the back of the joystick card. Although this setup ensures that you'll be able to adjust the card specifically to your computer's speed, I didn't have any problems with the automatic cards.

I didnt know about the Suncom joysticks and products. They have been around for quite sometime and then folded at what seems to be their pinnacle....after a lawsuit about the naming of the F15E Eage, apparently.

The F15 series of sticks look awesome.

I found this article about the Suncom F15E Talon...

http://www.combatsim.com/archive/htm/htm_arc4/suntal.htm

This was posted by Bwaze at Digital Combat Simulator and was a repost of information from X-Plane forum by GranGichus...

-SFS and F-15E Raptor have 2-axis, 4-buttons and 1-hat. (coolie only) In these two stick models the hat is emulated thru a non-c […]
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-SFS and F-15E Raptor have 2-axis, 4-buttons and 1-hat. (coolie only) In these two stick models the hat is emulated thru a non-convetional button mask, its seen as multiple button presses at once, not recognized by most modern games, they are the entry level joysticks from Suncom, not worth buying unless you plan on gutting them out to do something with them or you have an SFS throttle to convert the HAT into keystrokes.

-F-15E Hawk is a 2-axis, 4-buttons and 2-hat stick. (castle anc coolie) One model above the previous, hats are emulated the same way, thru combined button presses so the are not recognized by most modern games. This is the perfect candidate for USB modding. If you have the SFS throttle, this joystick is the closest thing to the Talon/Eagle because the SFS throttle will give you the keyboard emulation.

-F-15E Talon is a 2-axis, 4-buttons and 2-hat stick. (castel and coolie) However, the difference between this one and the Hawk is that this stick's coolie and castle swtiches (the two hats) are strictly keyboard emulators. the main 4 buttons can be toggled as keyboard emulation buttons or regular joystick buttons. Keystrokes are programmed thru the joystick itself, no drivers needed. This stick can store up to 4 different profiles for each one of the buttons hats. (total of 48 SINGLE keystrokes can be programmed into this stick, no macros or chorded keys)

-F-15E Eagle was their top of the line before TM sued them over it. (AFAIK) The Eagle is a 2-axis, 4-button and 2-hat stick that offers the same 2 hats as keyboard emulators and the 4 main buttons toggable as regular buttons or keyboard emulator as well, the main difference between this stick and the Talon is that the Eagle stick has a pass-thru for headphones and each button can store up to 8 different keystrokes, including chorded keystrokes (like CTRL - X, ALT - B... ) and each one of the 4 main buttons has a 3 speed toggable auto-repeat (auto-fire) This stick requires an old computer to be reprogrammed, and it needs the DOS application that reprograms the keyboard emulator.

Driver and Calibration Talk about the Suncom via brianF at Tech Support Forum...

1. Double click on My Computer 2. Double click on Control Panel 3. Double click the Game Controllers 4. The Game Controllers con […]
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1. Double click on My Computer
2. Double click on Control Panel
3. Double click the Game Controllers
4. The Game Controllers control panel comes up. IMPORTANT Remove any joysticks listed.
5. Click the Add icon
6. Click the Add Other icon
7. Click the Have Disk icon
8. The Install From Disk window comes up. Specify the location of the attached Suncom.inf file. example c \AOL6.0\download
9. Select the Suncom F-15E Hawk and click OK
10. Click the Finish button
11. Select the Suncom F-15E Hawk or 2-axis, 4-button joystick
12. Now at the main Game Controllers control panel, click Properties
13. the Game Controllers Properties control panel comes up click Calibrate. Always use the trigger button to advance through the calibration routine. You should never press "Next" during the calibration process
14. click Finish to save the calibration of your F-15E Hawk
15. Click Apply
16. To test the calibration of your F-15E Hawk, from the Game Controllers Properties control panel click the Test tab
17.Click the OK button when you are finished testing. Joystick setup is complete

Video of the Throttle/Weapons Control plus Talon Joystick...on YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oZHrOiNPb8

Comment from Bwaze...

I would just add that the first mentioned stick, Suncom SFS is the stick that was sold together with throttle in "Combo Crate". SFS and Raptor sticks both have just the coolie hat (in the middle), on the left is the big red LED light instad of a button. Other sticks have castle 4-way switch in center and coolie hat on the right side.

Last comment about these sticks from G3 concerning the quality...

Goya, i agree, the feel and build quality of the buttons etc on the sfs gear was less than impressive, i was dissapointed by this fact.
ch-guts in sfs shell would be sweet indeed

F15E.info

http://www.f-15e.info/technology/cockpit/forw … rward_stick.htm

http://www.f-15e.info/joomla/en/technology/co … -pilot-throttle

ih8registrations wrote:

A bit more than marketing, joystick port is analog, but for joysticks like the sidewinder, communication is digital(BTW here are DOS sidewinder drivers /w source & explanation of how it functions: http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade_downloads.shtml#Drivers ,) their tracking is also said to be digital(maybe that's the marketing part.) Then there's the Gravis Gamepad that operates differently again, by using hardwired position values, pegged to 0/50/100k ohms.

I finally got around to trying out my DB15 to USB adapter, and this makes sense to me now: while in "GRiP" mode, my Gravis Gamepad Pro does indeed send sporadic signals through the gameport, but they obviously don't correspond to the standard joystick inputs. Presumably, the old Gravis software would remap these signals appropriately.

So now I'm wondering: if that's really all that software did, and it's not really a magically-special driver of some sort, does that mean it should work in Win7 64-bit after all?

(By the way, while I could get my "InterAct PC Propad 4" working perfectly, for some reason my Gravis Gamepad Pro would never center, even after putting it into legacy mode using the switch on the back and running the calibration routine. What's up with that?)

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

As for a serial port joystick, well I have never seen one.

Now you have! 😉

Wingman Warrior let you use a game port OR a serial port. With the game port, you could choose between the hat stick or the throttle using a switch on the back, serial port let you use both, and the twist knob thing.

It came with a CD-ROM that enabled certain DOS games to use it, and a Windows 9x driver to make it a DirectInput device.