The CS4235 has a YMF262 clone integrated within the chip, and that one is a pile of crap. Other Crystal chips don't have any FM Synthesis such as the one that's used in conjunction with the OPTi 82C929A on my sound card. It's really a dual OPTi/Crystal sound card with true OPL2 and OPL3 FM Synthesis with a discrete YMF262.

Here's a Diamond Multimedia Sonic Sound sound card with an OPTi 82C929A combined with a Crystal CS4248 and a discrete YMF262: http://www.yjfy.com/images/oldhard/sound/Soni … _Sound_9506.jpg

This one is similar to my 82C929A except mine has an orange PCB, has some parts in different locations and is made by a different company.

By the way, does anyone own a SoundBlaster 32 model CT3930? It's this thing: http://www.yjfy.com/images/oldhard/sound/CT3930.jpg

Of course, since it uses a discrete YMF262, the FM Synthesis will be 100% authentic, but how well does the SoundBlaster 32 work in general with MS-DOS games?

Ace wrote:

I use the Composite and S-Video outs of each computer's graphics cards, which is why the picture quality isn't too great in the video and there's a huge black border around the video(that's overscan, what you can't see on a TV, well, at least on a CRT TV, which is what I use as a monitor for my classing gaming PCs)

Yea does this solution work for you with 320 x 200 games as well (I can't tell if that game is 320 x 200 or higher). Because I was looking at doing exactly the same thing (recording S-Video out).

I'm kinda over DOSBox and seeing all these DOSBox videos on YouTube. We need more authentic recordings using real vintage hardware 🤣

That's what I say. Screw emulation, give me the original hardware! On all the videos I uploaded on YouTube, I only use emulation if either A) I don't have the original hardware or B) I don't have an actual cartridge of the game shown in the video(this only applies to games on cartridge-based consoles).

I believe X-Wing is 320x240. Here's the floppy disk edition recorded in S-Video for my playthrough(it runs at the same resolution): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXjrODX-rrs

Digital sound is output from my SoundBlaster AWE64 and FM Synthesis is produced by my OPTi 82C929A(this is OPL2 FM Synthesis; the floppy disk edition does not have OPL3 FM Synthesis like the Collector's CD-ROM edition). Graphics card used is an ATI 3D Rage II+DVD

It's a better idea to use S-Video to record DOS games as Composite looks pretty bad. This applies to both recordings and to playing the games on a TV.

What games do you know off the top of your head that run in 320x200 resolution?

On that note, I'm curious to try out a test recording of Star Wars TIE Fighter in 640x480. Wonder how that would look. If it's crap, I'll record in 320x240(little factoid: the ATI Radeon 9000 does not support TIE Fighter's high-res mode. In 640x480, the Radeon 9000 flips out and displays a heavily scrambled picture).

Awesome video. Interesting in the comments you write that you found the AWE64 buggy...

I have a VGA to S-Video box underway. Main benefit is that it has a VGA pass through port, so I can record while using the VGA in my monitor.

I have been told that the TV Out on most video cards goes off as soon as you plug in a VGA cable. Radeon cards are the exception I heard but I haven't tested this.

I'm also wondering if they output PAL or NTSC under DOS (this might depend on the BIOS) and if this makes a difference.

I will get the gear soon, so expect some test / quality comparison videos. Also trying to see if component and HDMI is possible (there are converters for that as well)

The newer AGP cards have component out through the TV Out port, but I was unable to find any reference if this works under DOS.

The bug with the AWE64's digitized sound is also present on my SoundBlaster 16 WavEffects model CT4170. Might also be present on other SoundBlaster 16s and the SoundBlaster AWE32. I never had problems with the digitized sound getting stuck on any other sound card but the AWE64 and SoundBlaster 16 WavEffects.

Since my capture device will only accept up to S-Video, I'm stuck with that. Does the 3D Rage II+DVD output Component video? If it does, I think I'll play my DOS games in Component and record in S-Video. And my 3D Rage II+DVD outputs in NTSC. I believe you can select whether to output video in PAL or NTSC if you install the drivers for the card. Since I didn't install the Windows 95 drivers for my 3D Rage II+DVD(there's no point since I'm not playing any Windows 9x games on the computer it's been put in), the card only outputs in NTSC. I should check to see if there's a PAL/NTSC jumper on the card. I know one thing for sure: PAL video on a CRT TV can be painful to look at since it's a fair bit brighter than NTSC, possibly due to the lower frequency of the video signal(my TV is both PAL and NTSC-compatible).

AFAIK it's the newer cards like Radeon 9800 / X800 and Geforce FX / 6000 series that have component out.

They have a high density TV out port (8 or 9 pins) and the cables are easy to source on ebay. But yea I haven't tested any of this yet...

I guess those are all AGP or PCI Express graphics cards? In that situation, they're of no use to me as the computer I'm using for my MS-DOS games, an IBM Personal Computer 300PL, has the AGP port placed in an awkward position, and as such, most AGP graphics cards will not fit. Are there any PCI graphics cards with Component output?

Ace wrote:

By the way, does anyone own a SoundBlaster 32 model CT3930? It's this thing: http://www.yjfy.com/images/oldhard/sound/CT3930.jpg

Of course, since it uses a discrete YMF262, the FM Synthesis will be 100% authentic, but how well does the SoundBlaster 32 work in general with MS-DOS games?

This would be the ultimate AWE card, if you don't care about the missing WB connector (this card most likely has the "hanging note bug", so no big loss there). However, this model seems to be rare.

What about a normal AWE32 then? Many models have the OPL3 integrated into the CT1747 chip.

Yea they are AGP. Hmm not sure about PCI cards to be honest. I mean you can get very up to date PCI video cards, but the TV out port kinda got dropped a while ago. So it would have to be an older model...

EDIT: Hmm makes me wonder if a X800 or GT6600 would even work on a Slot 1 board?

5u3 wrote:

This would be the ultimate AWE card, if you don't care about the missing WB connector (this card most likely has the "hanging note bug", so no big loss there). However, this model seems to be rare.

I found two listings for SoundBlaster 32s(they're not called AWE32, just plain SoundBlaster 32) on eBay. Have a look here: http://cgi.ebay.ca/Sound-Blaster-32-VIBRA-OPL … =item5adbf81627

And here: http://cgi.ebay.ca/Sound-Blaster-CT3930-Vibra … =item483c89c897

Might try to snag one of these.

5u3 wrote:

What about a normal AWE32 then? Many models have the OPL3 integrated into the CT1747 chip.

Unless they have a chip that says OPL on it(and I think those were abandoned somewhere during the days of the SoundBlaster 16), all AWE32s contain a Yamaha YMF262 clone developed by Creative, and one that's inferior to ESS' ESFM YMF262 clone(the one flaw with this one is some slight differences with the white noise). So in that case, you'll lose authenticity on the FM Synthesis end.

Let me explain: during the days of the SoundBlaster 16, Creative was condensing the hardware more and more as the card got older. At first, it had a discrete YMF262, then Creative went ahead and integrated the YMF262 in the CT1747. Later on, however, the CT1747 got a different implementation of the YMF262, which is that of a clone developed by Creative. If you look at some of the earlier SoundBlaster 16s with CT1747s, you will see OPL written on the chip. Later CT1747s don't have OPL written on them because Creative's YMF262 clone is used instead of the real Yamaha YMF262 in an ASIC-based implementation.

EDIT: Okay, clearly, I've made a mistake. The CT1747 has an actual ASIC-based YMF262, no clone, at least not on the AWE32. No wonder I heard a report of the AWE32 outputting scrambled notes from the YMF262 in certain games when the AWE64, running on the same computer, did not output garbage(Creative's cloned YMF262 will tolerate CPUs with higher clock speeds than the real Yamaha YMF262).

I think I see where the cloned YMF262 came in. I believe SoundBlaster 16s that don't have a discrete YMF262 or a CT1747 chip on the sound card are the ones with Creative's clone, and my guess is that those cards are the cheaper models of the SoundBlaster 16 line. Case and point, my SoundBlaster 16 WavEffects. It has a single Vibra16XV chip on the sound card, nothing more. Even the AWE64 doesn't have the CT1747. Can someone confirm whether the cheaper models of the SoundBlaster 16 truly contain nothing but Creative's cloned YMF262?

I wouldn't say the cheapest, more the highly integrated ones / newer ones...

All the really new SB16s are highly integrated. Just a few chips, whereas the early SB16s had large PCBs with a ton of components.

So if your card is compact and has few components I doubt it will have OPL.

I see some AWE32s without CT1747s, so those should have Creative's cloned YMF262 rather than the ASIC implementation of the YMF262 found in the CT1747. My one problem with the AWE32 is the size of the card. Holy CRAP! That's thing's HUGE! I doubt it'll fit in my Personal Computer 300PL since the CPU could get in the way. Although I do have a tower computer with 2 ISA slots in which I could possibly fit the AWE32.

Or maybe I'd just be better off with a Yamaha or Roland MIDI daughterboard attached to my OPTi 82C929A for some General MIDI.

Can anyone share a recording of the Collector's CD-ROM edition(or floppy disk edition, doesn't matter) of Star Wars X-Wing running on a SoundBlaster AWE32 with a CT1747 chip on it? With this, I can confirm if the CT1747 truly has a YMF262 integrated within the chip.

You probably already found this epic thread over at QuestStudios. It has lots of info about the AWE cards and their different revisions.

It is possible to make digital recordings from the FM chip on AWE cards (via the S/P-DIF output). The reason I haven't done this yet is that I only have AWE cards with CT1747 or Creative's crappy CQM clone, but none with a "real" OPL3.

And the AWE32 with the CT1747 is what I want to hear with either the floppy disk edition or Collector's CD-ROM edition to hear just how faithful the OPL implementation in the CT1747 is compared to a real Yamaha YMF262.

Thanks a lot for the info. Ace, your Star Wars youtube vids are excellent. 😀

retro games 100 wrote:

Edit: If I do a search on German ebay for opti soundkarte (or ess or crystal), the results are plentiful. Can someone please helpfully point out a couple of good cards? Thanks a lot if possible.

I decided to take "pot luck", and buy a selection of sound cards. They were Opti 82C929A, ESS 1868/9, and CS4236B. I would like to compare these cards' sound quality with a CT1600 (SB Pro 2) that I have been testing. I am mainly interested in the FM music.

Wow, all this sound card data to sift through: chipsets, revision numbers, manufacturers, features, etc. It's a minefield of information. Luckily, buying this stuff now is relatively inexpensive because only nutters want it.

retro games 100 wrote:

Ace, your Star Wars youtube vids are excellent. 😀

Thanks! 😁

retro games 100 wrote:

I decided to take "pot luck", and buy a selection of sound cards. They were Opti 82C929A, ESS 1868/9, and CS4236B. I would like to compare these cards' sound quality with a CT1600 (SB Pro 2) that I have been testing. I am mainly interested in the FM music.

Heh... exactly the reason why I made my "The Many Sounds of:" series of videos on YouTube. Since every sound card will sound different due to many different factors(type of YMF262, MIDI soundfonts, different audio amps, etc.), I figured I would document what each sound card I've tested sounds like.

To think I first thought the FM Synthesis of the ESS Maestro-2 and SoundBlaster AWE64 were the real thing until I heard a recording on YouTube from an actual MS-DOS computer and noticed the FM Synthesis was closer to DOSBox's sound than my AWE64's FM Synthesis(and I knew beforehand when I swapped out the Maestro-2 for the AWE64 that the Maestro-2's FM Synthesis was WAY off). That's when it hit me: the AWE64 does not have a real YMF262, but rather a clone of the YMF262. I can't stand imperfections in the FM Synthesis since that has one particular sound and very few sound cards that don't have discrete YMF262s fail to replicate it 100%. I don't mind added roughness due to the audio amp on the YMF262, but if the distortion becomes as severe as some Sega Genesis clones, then it's a problem. I'm not so picky for digitized sound and MIDI since there's no one true sound in that regard.

I've made a thread here where I linked all my "The Many Sounds of:" videos. I'm gonna have to update it as there's one sound I did not link on top of updating my remarks on the OPTi 82C929A and 82C931.

Thanks a lot for helping me out!
I decided to get the Yamaha YMF719 and the voodoo 3, hopefully my parents can find them 😉

After all this information I still wonder why not just use a Roland General Midi module and avoid all these FM synth choices altogether?

PS: Is there a demo of this game available? Curious about that PCM bug you found on the AWE64...

Older games like Keen and Wolf3d use FM for music, if you're an OPL snob a clone will bug you immensely.