dekkit wrote on 2023-01-19, 02:18:

What tool did you use I.e. crystal disk - if I get time, I'll test them in my windows 10 machine to see what I get.

I used CrystalDiskMark indeed, with those settings: 5 and 256, I took the lowest values for read and write for both read and write test.
I'm looking forward to check how your chinese card will perform, thank you!

For me this good old method always seem to work:

- on modern pc, remove all partition data, no new created (diskpart, clear)
- on old pc, boot from floppy, cd, gotek, removable X
- fdisk the new partition
- reboot
- format /s
- reboot (still from removable)
- fdisk /MBR
- reboot from C:\

I also have a few of these white label CF cards (8GB) and they are slow but seem to work ok 😀
But I prefer the industrial class CF: much higher speed and should not wear out as soon as standard consumer class stuff.

Nemo1985 wrote on 2023-01-19, 08:34:

dekkit wrote on 2023-01-19, 02:18:

What tool did you use I.e. crystal disk - if I get time, I'll test them in my windows 10 machine to see what I get.

I used CrystalDiskMark indeed, with those settings: 5 and 256, I took the lowest values for read and write for both read and write test.
I'm looking forward to check how your chinese card will perform, thank you!

Here we go using 5 and 500 (i didn't have 256 in my dropdown list)

CF CARD SIZE = 2GB
BRAND = 2003 MemoryTechnology Company (made in taiwan)
Filesystem = Fat16

connected via usb card reader

Results copied over from the app (using the copy function)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
CrystalDiskMark 6.0.2 x64 (C) 2007-2018 hiyohiyo
Crystal Dew World : https://crystalmark.info/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
* MB/s = 1,000,000 bytes/s [SATA/600 = 600,000,000 bytes/s]
* KB = 1000 bytes, KiB = 1024 bytes

Sequential Read (Q= 32,T= 1) : 36.584 MB/s
Sequential Write (Q= 32,T= 1) : 20.982 MB/s
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 8,T= 😎 : 10.616 MB/s [ 2591.8 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 8,T= 😎 : 0.207 MB/s [ 50.5 IOPS]
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 10.536 MB/s [ 2572.3 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 0.194 MB/s [ 47.4 IOPS]
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 9.468 MB/s [ 2311.5 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 0.205 MB/s [ 50.0 IOPS]

Test : 500 MiB [E: 0.1% (1.2/1875.9 MiB)] (x5) [Interval=5 sec]
Date : 2023/01/19 21:15:55

...

CF CARD SIZE = 4GB
BRAND = 2003 MemoryTechnology Company (made in taiwan)
Filesystem = Fat32

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
CrystalDiskMark 6.0.2 x64 (C) 2007-2018 hiyohiyo
Crystal Dew World : https://crystalmark.info/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
* MB/s = 1,000,000 bytes/s [SATA/600 = 600,000,000 bytes/s]
* KB = 1000 bytes, KiB = 1024 bytes

Sequential Read (Q= 32,T= 1) : 11.955 MB/s
Sequential Write (Q= 32,T= 1) : 9.331 MB/s
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 8,T= 😎 : 4.686 MB/s [ 1144.0 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 8,T= 😎 : 0.061 MB/s [ 14.9 IOPS]
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 4.690 MB/s [ 1145.0 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 0.060 MB/s [ 14.6 IOPS]
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 4.438 MB/s [ 1083.5 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 0.057 MB/s [ 13.9 IOPS]

Test : 500 MiB [E: 0.0% (0.0/3912.1 MiB)] (x5) [Interval=5 sec]
Date : 2023/01/19 21:32:30

...

CF CARD SIZE = 512MB
BRAND = 2003 MemoryTechnology Company (made in taiwan)
Filesystem = Fat16

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
CrystalDiskMark 6.0.2 x64 (C) 2007-2018 hiyohiyo
Crystal Dew World : https://crystalmark.info/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
* MB/s = 1,000,000 bytes/s [SATA/600 = 600,000,000 bytes/s]
* KB = 1000 bytes, KiB = 1024 bytes

Sequential Read (Q= 32,T= 1) : 17.578 MB/s
Sequential Write (Q= 32,T= 1) : 4.740 MB/s
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 8,T= 😎 : 9.900 MB/s [ 2417.0 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 8,T= 😎 : 0.118 MB/s [ 28.8 IOPS]
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 9.704 MB/s [ 2369.1 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 0.115 MB/s [ 28.1 IOPS]
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 7.903 MB/s [ 1929.4 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 0.111 MB/s [ 27.1 IOPS]

Test : 100 MiB [E: 0.4% (2.0/487.5 MiB)] (x5) [Interval=5 sec]
Date : 2023/01/19 21:43:49

waterbeesje wrote on 2023-01-19, 09:13:

For me this good old method always seem to work: […]
Show full quote

For me this good old method always seem to work:

- on modern pc, remove all partition data, no new created (diskpart, clear)
- on old pc, boot from floppy, cd, gotek, removable X
- fdisk the new partition
- reboot
- format /s
- reboot (still from removable)
- fdisk /MBR
- reboot from C:\

I also have a few of these white label CF cards (8GB) and they are slow but seem to work ok 😀
But I prefer the industrial class CF: much higher speed and should not wear out as soon as standard consumer class stuff.

tried this just now on a 2GB CF card .... boot failure (where as the RUFUS method worked on the same card)

dekkit wrote on 2023-01-19, 10:44:

Here we go using 5 and 500 (i didn't have 256 in my dropdown list)

[...]

Imho 2gb card is fine, the 512mb is so slow...
They are probably relabelled as suggested...

Just a further update:
- Ordered an original 2GB SanDisk CF card
- was so disappointed that initially it would not boot ms dos 6.22 no matter how many times i did fdisk / format etc etc (only RUFUS's FreeDOS method worked).
- HOWEVER on this occasion i also tried using ATCFWCHG (Change CF card mode between fixed/removable) - see here http://vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?fileid=1862&menustate=0
- it received a pass for changing the mode (had it plugged in as a secondary IDE hdd - I used the command "ATCFWCHG.COM /P /F /1 " ).
- then I went through and did the steps for msdos fdisk, format /s (as mentioned above) etc etc and it then successfully booted MS DOS 6.22
- was able to progress and successfully install Win95b on it - so was pretty wrapped about that in the end!

So yes, worth exploring that CF Card mode changer - if anyone find this post via google etc and you have a "quality" CF card brand. It does actually make a difference for some CF cards and old DOS PCs.

As further note, for all these other cheap ali-express ones i posted above, I tried to see if that CF Card mode changer would make a difference and it didn't work on any of them (reported errors) 😁 - so it looks like i'm stuck with FreeDOS for those if i need to use them as a boot device.

dekkit wrote on 2023-01-18, 14:42:

Example of the cheap cf cards in referring to...
-17071652981779948637.jpg

I decided to break open the casing for one of these cheap CF cards (the 512MB one). Here's what they look like including PCB and IC.

PCB Top

Flash RAM = TOSHIBA NT5896 TC58NVG2S3ETA00 (~512MB)
Controller IC = STEC 24850-03333-xI1u

PCB Bottom

The controller looks pretty common for flashdisks (not just CF cards) but was unable to find a download datasheet to see if there is anyway to enable more IDE style features on these things (possibly change the fixed disk in hardware).
Looks like it a similar chip to what is used in the Industrial 44pin IDE drives (ie SLFLD25-2GM1UI)

Guys.. Um, there's something I have to get off my chest.. Hope you don't mind.
a) some of the OPs of this thread have "left" the forums, in both ways, I'm afraid.
b) it is access time (in ms) that matters, if we replace maniacal drives by SSDs.
c) fixed vs removable doesn't matter, at least not for DOS/Win9x. For Win NT/2k, it does, yes. For Win CE - no idea.
For XP on CF, there are INFs and filter drivers (thanks, Car PC community!) to solve the problems.

Edit: Also, I highly appreciate your enthusiasm. Keep it up. 😄👍
Edit: Formatting fixed.