VOGONS


First post, by Tetrium

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Basically what the title sais.

When building a 9x rig (say Pentium 3 or earlier), what games will sound best using a Vortex or Vortex 2 and which games will sound better using the SB128 PCI?

And are there any other (PCI) soundcards worth mentioning in this regard (what about Yamaha? ESS Solo-1?)?

And how will ISA soundcards compare in the list for Windows 9x?
Or would I be better off saving them for DOS?
I 'somewhat' know that using an ISA expansion card has the downside to slow down a system that would otherwise use only PCI (and perhaps AGP) cards?

Are there any daughterboards worth mentioning? Mind you, I have zero experience with daughterboards on soundcards. Iirc I may have one single one, all I remember it was a dream... something.

Of course I've used most of these in the past, but I basically just put used the one that was "on top of the pile" when I needed a PCI soundcard, but I'd like to actually start using them more intelligently, so to say, and build maybe a couple separate rigs, each with a different soundcard and each with different games installed which sound the best with the soundcard installed in said rig.

Are there any "lists" or something which game is best used with which soundcard? Again, I'm kinda a newb in this matter.

Thanks!

Reply 1 of 16, by Mau1wurf1977

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The Vortex 2 cards seem to be highly regarded. They get mentioned all the time.

I think it boils down to what Sound technology the game uses. If it's A3D then use a Vortex 2, but if it's EAX then use a Creative card.

Regarding ISA / PCI my understanding is that you use ISA for DOS and PCI for windows.

I don't know if daughterboards are even needed under W98SE unless you do MIDI stuff. The Creative cards are able to load SoundFonts into memory, so IMO that's a big plus as it's very flexible and convenient.

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Reply 2 of 16, by swaaye

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I will say that AudioPCI chips aren't ideal for anything other than OEM PC builders wanting to fulfill their feature checklist in as mediocre and cheap a way as possible.

I suggest a Vortex 2 or a Live! because games from those days tend to work best with these cards.

For example, I found that Audigy has problems with EAX in NFS4. Vortex and Live work perfectly.

Reply 3 of 16, by ratfink

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Another good pci sound card is the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz.

If you are interested in playing MIDI then the vortex cards and the santa cruz have daughterboard connectors. I expect that's irrelvant for pure Windows games but a lot of DOS games use MIDI.

The Yamaha cards [like the SP-724] have XG-midi built-in. It's a subset of the XG sounds on the XG midi cards [DB50XG, SW60XG] but it works pretty well. The Yamaha also apparently has an OPL3 so it should give faithful FM music in DOS games.

Reply 4 of 16, by keropi

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if this is a windows-only gaming pc then go for a SBLIVE. In my thread about the waveforce card there is a chart with some benchmarks, sblive is better than all mentioned cards....

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Reply 5 of 16, by swaaye

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Vortex's big advantage is with 2 speaker 3D sound. It has a really cool ability there that Live can't touch...

But Live has advantages too like VASTLY superior MIDI. 😀 Too bad it doesn't have a DB header!

Reply 7 of 16, by Tetrium

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Cheers!

Since I already have quite a lot of Live!'s already, I should kinda be set.
the only thing is, I already use those Live!'s for my XP rigs 🤣!
Maybe I should go grab some more, they seem to be getting more versatile the longer I have them!

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My retro rigs (old topic)
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Reply 8 of 16, by Mau1wurf1977

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They are really cheap at the moment, as everything is moving to PCIe and USB. Sandy Bridge doesn't have native PCI any more, so we should see a ton of PCI cards over the next few years!

Just wondering would a PCI X-Fi work in a W98SE machine or are there technology roadblocks?

Reply 9 of 16, by RogueTrip2012

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I've recently started looking back at Vortex 2 cards myself and bought a Monster MX300, and a Clone DB60XG (NEC XR-385) off ebay. I haven't used it yet but will share the info I've gathered from reviews and such.

The Vortex 2 seems more versatile than the SBLive! so far but does lack a bit.

Some of the Pro/Con of each board I've found:

Vortex 2
-----------
Pro:
*A3D 1.0
*A3D 2.0
*EAX 1.0
*EAX 2.0 (software emulation from some of the reviews)
*Wavetable support for better MIDI
*Better HRTF or whatever for headphones (better positional hearing on headphones)

Con:
*upwards of 10% high cpu usage on average (really should only affect under 500mhz and gaming?)
*Only SoundBlaster Pro emulation
*onboard MIDI not said to be the greatest (hence wavetable support)
*Older drivers for win98 and hard to find drivers on internet (took me awhile but found some from Russian FTP)
*Not very good XP support as only 3rd party drivers exist.
*not all have digital or SPDIF output on-board without add-ons
*Digital output is 2 speaker mode

SBLive!
---------
Pro:
*EAX 1.0
*EAX 2.0
*SoundBlaster 16 emulation
*Use system ram for Soundfont midi bank
*Low cpu usage
*Newer Drivers and even fan based drivers from audigy series

Con:
*No A3D 1.0/2.0 Support
*issues if motherboard is Via chipsets (PCI Latency Patch) or lacks Non-Maskable Interrupts (NMI). Probably affect Vortex also?!

I'm sure others can correct me as needed cause I'm sure there are exceptions.

When my Monster MX300 card arrived yesterday I even got a free bonus. Some old Adaptec SCSI 50-pin controller. I've never even used SCSI before. Hopefully it doesn't peak my interest as I just got 2 PCI SATA 150 controllers as well (mmm faster HDD's for w98SE 😁 )

Last edited by RogueTrip2012 on 2011-02-16, 02:11. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 10 of 16, by DonutKing

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I've tried both a Live and a Vortex 2 in my '98 gaming rig and I've gone with the Vortex 2, to me it sounds better than the Live, plus A3D is awesome. EAX support seems fine for games that won't do A3D.

Only game that didn't like the vortex was Sin, which crashes when hardware sound is enabled.

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Reply 11 of 16, by RogueTrip2012

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Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

They are really cheap at the moment, as everything is moving to PCIe and USB. Sandy Bridge doesn't have native PCI any more, so we should see a ton of PCI cards over the next few years!

Just wondering would a PCI X-Fi work in a W98SE machine or are there technology roadblocks?

Everything has to die sometime right, I mean PCI has been around for quite awhile. What isn't onboard that is really needed these days anyways through PCI.

As for the X-Fi, I wouldn't bother, drivers are probably the biggest factor as there are non for w98se. At that though, my Audigy 2 has issues with a few of my games. Sound cuts out on Quake 2 and have to exit menu and re-enter to get sound again. GLQuake 1.13 has no sound. (maybe driver issues though). Sound works great on Duke Nukem 3D though.

Reply 12 of 16, by Tetrium

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RogueTrip2012 wrote:
SBLive! --------- Con: *issues if motherboard is Via chipsets (PCI Latency Patch) or lacks Non-Maskable Interrupts (NMI). Proba […]
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SBLive!
---------
Con:
*issues if motherboard is Via chipsets (PCI Latency Patch) or lacks Non-Maskable Interrupts (NMI). Probably affect Vortex also?!

This is of course an issue, and I'm wondering if other soundcards are affected by this myself.
I would think the 686B issues came up in combination with the Live! simply because it was the card most people bought when the 686B was current hardware, even though I've seen a couple posts mentioning that the (older) 128PCI didn't have these issues, or at least not in the same intensity.

If the Vortex (2) doesn't have these issues (and somewhat higher cpu usage) maybe Vortex + 686B would be a nice combo?

Reply 13 of 16, by swaaye

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Any of the sound cards that do hardware processing can be affected by PCI latency problems. I've definitely heard pops and clicks from Vortex 1 and 2.

Intel-based boards aren't guaranteed trouble-free either. Sometimes the video card is the cause of the problem because the video driver would tweak PCI latency of the video card way high to maximize the amount of time it could have at the bus. This is even a problem with AGP cards.

On XP you can use this program to tweak each device's latency setting
http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=951
There's probably an app out there for 9x too.

Reply 14 of 16, by bushwack

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swaaye wrote:
Any of the sound cards that do hardware processing can be affected by PCI latency problems. I've definitely heard pops and click […]
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Any of the sound cards that do hardware processing can be affected by PCI latency problems. I've definitely heard pops and clicks from Vortex 1 and 2.

On XP you can use this program to tweak each device's latency setting
http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=951
There's probably an app out there for 9x too.

Hey that link isn't working.

Guess I've gotten lucky, I've never heard any kind of clicks or pops out of any sound cards I have ever used. Though I did have a buddy once who could hear an occasional radio station through his Audigy. He replaced it with a different card (can't remember what) and it went away.

Reply 15 of 16, by RogueTrip2012

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bushwack wrote:

Hey that link isn't working.
.

works fine for me on firefox, even downloaded like 146kb file, didn't try opening it though.

So after having my own quick issue of installing an MX300 on Intel chipset I ran across a note about Via Chipset.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/kirben/vortex2 … %20motherboards

Basically says

Make sure USB is enabled in your system BIOS
Try the latest drivers and patches for the VIA chipset at VIA Technologies
Check if a BIOS update is available for your motherboardI

I do know that there is a PCI latency patch that comes in later Via 4in1 packages but do not know if it installs by default. Either way probably running george's PCI Latency Patch should take care of any issues.