750$ is cheap for you? Good for you 🤭

Well $750 is $750 and isnt an inconsiderable amount of money but as far as 4k upscalers go its cheap yes.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-12-11, 16:06:

All the above having been said about scalers then it really doesnt matter what LCD you use does it because you aint outputting the picture from DOS anymore, youre putting out an upscaled picture.
If the scaler is good enough to be worth talking about in a thread like this the it shouldnt matter about the monitor, the only real question is what is the best modern monitor.

That's a weird post. I'm not sure I'm misunderstanding but the way I read it, what you say makes no sense.

If you want to upscale a DOS game, it's best to take into account different hertz so ideally you'd have a monitor that can output more than 60Hz and even more than 120Hz.

If you also want to do CRT shading, you HAVE to have a high resolution monitor - 4K is recommended - to emulate the CRT "pixels".

Personally, I have a project in mind which will be costly but should provide for a very good solution: they're finally making non-widescreen OLED monitors that aren't extremely expensive and combined with a Retrotink 4k it should offer a very bright image that can mimic the true CRT look.

An alternative is a small portable 15" screen that has enough nits with 144Hz refresh rate (the max I've seen them being sold at so far). These would be small enough to fit inside a 3D printed bezel even.

red_avatar wrote on 2024-01-11, 11:15:

they're finally making non-widescreen OLED monitors that aren't extremely expensive

Any more info on these?

red_avatar wrote on 2024-01-11, 11:15:

That's a weird post. I'm not sure I'm misunderstanding but the way I read it, what you say makes no sense. […]
Show full quote

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-12-11, 16:06:

All the above having been said about scalers then it really doesnt matter what LCD you use does it because you aint outputting the picture from DOS anymore, youre putting out an upscaled picture.
If the scaler is good enough to be worth talking about in a thread like this the it shouldnt matter about the monitor, the only real question is what is the best modern monitor.

That's a weird post. I'm not sure I'm misunderstanding but the way I read it, what you say makes no sense.

If you want to upscale a DOS game, it's best to take into account different hertz so ideally you'd have a monitor that can output more than 60Hz and even more than 120Hz.

If you also want to do CRT shading, you HAVE to have a high resolution monitor - 4K is recommended - to emulate the CRT "pixels".

Personally, I have a project in mind which will be costly but should provide for a very good solution: they're finally making non-widescreen OLED monitors that aren't extremely expensive and combined with a Retrotink 4k it should offer a very bright image that can mimic the true CRT look.

An alternative is a small portable 15" screen that has enough nits with 144Hz refresh rate (the max I've seen them being sold at so far). These would be small enough to fit inside a 3D printed bezel even.

Which is what I said.
Its about the scaler and then just put that into the best modern monitor you can afford because its never going to be as good as the real thing no matter what monitor you use. Only the real thing is that good.

red_avatar wrote on 2024-01-11, 11:15:

[..] If you also want to do CRT shading, you HAVE to have a high resolution monitor - 4K is recommended - to emulate the CRT "pixels" [..].

That's not wrong, but there's a catch. What most of you guys think by "CRT" monitor is probably a mid-90s VGA monitor with a 0.2mm dot pitch.
A classic 1987 MCGA/VGA monitor has a dot pitch 0f 0.4mm, though! The infamous Tandy VGM-225 had 0.52 mm, even!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m79HxULt3O8
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/bad … ndy-1000.42604/

Now the funny thing is, that games in 320x200 look nice on such low-res CRTs.
The bigger the pixels (the lower the monitor's capability to resolve the image), the better the colour blending!

So unless high-resolution graphics are being used (CAD, SVGA), a coarse CRT emulation might be the way to go.
For this, an 1080p screen should suffice.

Pierre32 wrote on 2024-01-11, 11:27:

red_avatar wrote on 2024-01-11, 11:15:

they're finally making non-widescreen OLED monitors that aren't extremely expensive

Any more info on these?

no chance... the current existing 4:3 lcd displays are also (based on) very old models. and be honest, i am happy, that i can use the oled for retro and for modern purposes. i do not want a dedicated display, if it is not authentic.

anyway 2024 will be the year of the oled boom, they release a lot of popular sized oled displays 27-32-34, 1440p, 2160p, dell, asus, hp, msi, lg, samsung, etc comes with 3-5 models, based on samsung or lg panels. currently the samsung looks more promising, they come with the rev3.

Jo22 wrote on 2024-01-12, 18:17:

That's not wrong, but there's a catch. What most of you guys think by "CRT" monitor is probably a mid-90s VGA monitor with a 0.2 […]
Show full quote

red_avatar wrote on 2024-01-11, 11:15:

[..] If you also want to do CRT shading, you HAVE to have a high resolution monitor - 4K is recommended - to emulate the CRT "pixels" [..].

That's not wrong, but there's a catch. What most of you guys think by "CRT" monitor is probably a mid-90s VGA monitor with a 0.2mm dot pitch.
A classic 1987 MCGA/VGA monitor has a dot pitch 0f 0.4mm, though! The infamous Tandy VGM-225 had 0.52 mm, even!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m79HxULt3O8
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/bad … ndy-1000.42604/

Now the funny thing is, that games in 320x200 look nice on such low-res CRTs.
The bigger the pixels (the lower the monitor's capability to resolve the image), the better the colour blending!

So unless high-resolution graphics are being used (CAD, SVGA), a coarse CRT emulation might be the way to go.
For this, an 1080p screen should suffice.

i always try out the emulations, but finally go back to the "native" pixels 😀 the pixels look gorgeous on the oled. maybe with a 4k scaler.

arncht wrote on 2024-01-12, 19:18:

Jo22 wrote on 2024-01-12, 18:17:

That's not wrong, but there's a catch. What most of you guys think by "CRT" monitor is probably a mid-90s VGA monitor with a 0.2 […]
Show full quote

red_avatar wrote on 2024-01-11, 11:15:

[..] If you also want to do CRT shading, you HAVE to have a high resolution monitor - 4K is recommended - to emulate the CRT "pixels" [..].

That's not wrong, but there's a catch. What most of you guys think by "CRT" monitor is probably a mid-90s VGA monitor with a 0.2mm dot pitch.
A classic 1987 MCGA/VGA monitor has a dot pitch 0f 0.4mm, though! The infamous Tandy VGM-225 had 0.52 mm, even!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m79HxULt3O8
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/bad … ndy-1000.42604/

Now the funny thing is, that games in 320x200 look nice on such low-res CRTs.
The bigger the pixels (the lower the monitor's capability to resolve the image), the better the colour blending!

So unless high-resolution graphics are being used (CAD, SVGA), a coarse CRT emulation might be the way to go.
For this, an 1080p screen should suffice.

i always try out the emulations, but finally go back to the "native" pixels 😀 the pixels look gorgeous on the oled. maybe with a 4k scaler.

I understand. ^^ Though MCGA titles really don't look too shabby on a 80's era tube.

This user resurrected an IBM 5175, the granddady of VGA monitors (PGC monitor, actually. But VGA conversion wasn't uncommon back then).

https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/the … ken-5175.71378/

The topic has an image of SOMI, too. The gradient of the horizon behind Mêlée Island is near perfect. ^^

PS: I'm sort of a fan of OLED, too. The vibrant colours are like neon lights.
What would be even better would be laser technology (it fluorescents/sparkles so nicely).
But that would require a rear projection system.

PS/2: My general recommendation is to have a little CRT TV on the desk, next to a flat-screen monitor.
Together with a little VGA to Composite/S-Video/SVART converter box the user has the choice to enjoy a game either way.
Many converters have VGA pass-through feature, so the main monitor is running in parallel. It's just a recommendation, though. It's no order. 😉

Jo22 wrote on 2024-01-13, 02:24:

I understand. ^^ Though MCGA titles really don't look too shabby on a 80's era tube. […]
Show full quote

arncht wrote on 2024-01-12, 19:18:

Jo22 wrote on 2024-01-12, 18:17:

That's not wrong, but there's a catch. What most of you guys think by "CRT" monitor is probably a mid-90s VGA monitor with a 0.2 […]
Show full quote

That's not wrong, but there's a catch. What most of you guys think by "CRT" monitor is probably a mid-90s VGA monitor with a 0.2mm dot pitch.
A classic 1987 MCGA/VGA monitor has a dot pitch 0f 0.4mm, though! The infamous Tandy VGM-225 had 0.52 mm, even!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m79HxULt3O8
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/bad … ndy-1000.42604/

Now the funny thing is, that games in 320x200 look nice on such low-res CRTs.
The bigger the pixels (the lower the monitor's capability to resolve the image), the better the colour blending!

So unless high-resolution graphics are being used (CAD, SVGA), a coarse CRT emulation might be the way to go.
For this, an 1080p screen should suffice.

i always try out the emulations, but finally go back to the "native" pixels 😀 the pixels look gorgeous on the oled. maybe with a 4k scaler.

I understand. ^^ Though MCGA titles really don't look too shabby on a 80's era tube.

This user resurrected an IBM 5175, the granddady of VGA monitors (PGC monitor, actually. But VGA conversion wasn't uncommon back then).

https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/the … ken-5175.71378/

The topic has an image of SOMI, too. The gradient of the horizon behind Mêlée Island is near perfect. ^^

PS: I'm sort of a fan of OLED, too. The vibrant colours are like neon lights.
What would be even better would be laser technology (it fluorescents/sparkles so nicely).
But that would require a rear projection system.

PS/2: My general recommendation is to have a little CRT TV on the desk, next to a flat-screen monitor.
Together with a little VGA to Composite/S-Video/SVART converter box the user has the choice to enjoy a game either way.
Many converters have VGA pass-through feature, so the main monitor is running in parallel. It's just a recommendation, though. It's no order. 😉

I also collected more crts for the golden age of the dos (imho 91-94), shadow mask 14, 17”, my original plan was to do a retro corner next to my modern setup. I stuck a little bit with to choose the right sized desk (they are very expensive), so parallel i bought an ossc and samsung g8 oled.

The result was so good, the display has native 4:3, perfect frequency match for 70hz, the win also works like on a real crt in the 90s, i am thinking to give up the original idea. Another advantage, i use a studio mixer, and the multi sound card setup is also works wonderfully.

Practically i can use the same frontend to my uptodate macbook and the pcs from the 90s. I can calibrate the ossc for every pcs, these analogue outputs never looked so good on the “average” crts, i really enjoy my favorite retro games and pcs in this sound/picture quality without any drawbacks. Maybe a better scaler could make it better, but the samsung scales the 800/960p also very well.

Jo22 wrote on 2024-01-12, 18:17:

That's not wrong, but there's a catch. What most of you guys think by "CRT" monitor is probably a mid-90s VGA monitor with a 0.2 […]
Show full quote

red_avatar wrote on 2024-01-11, 11:15:

[..] If you also want to do CRT shading, you HAVE to have a high resolution monitor - 4K is recommended - to emulate the CRT "pixels" [..].

That's not wrong, but there's a catch. What most of you guys think by "CRT" monitor is probably a mid-90s VGA monitor with a 0.2mm dot pitch.
A classic 1987 MCGA/VGA monitor has a dot pitch 0f 0.4mm, though! The infamous Tandy VGM-225 had 0.52 mm, even!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m79HxULt3O8
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/bad … ndy-1000.42604/

Now the funny thing is, that games in 320x200 look nice on such low-res CRTs.
The bigger the pixels (the lower the monitor's capability to resolve the image), the better the colour blending!

So unless high-resolution graphics are being used (CAD, SVGA), a coarse CRT emulation might be the way to go.
For this, an 1080p screen should suffice.

That's true but 4K will make SVGA games look absolutely gorgeous. The mid 90's screens are what I grew up with and while 320X200 still locks quite blocky, for 640x480 and 800x600 it looks amazing. When you play a game like Commandos on a CRT you can't see any pixels and it makes it look so nice & detailed. You then play it on a CRT and ... dear lord.

I have a 19" Philips CRT from 2001 which is too sharp for its own good and I never felt that happy about it even though it's a ridiculously good monitor (does 1600x1200 at 85Hz) that cost over €1000 at the time but yeah ... while it's great for high resolutions, retro gaming is all about lower resolutions.

Pierre32 wrote on 2024-01-11, 11:27:

red_avatar wrote on 2024-01-11, 11:15:

they're finally making non-widescreen OLED monitors that aren't extremely expensive

Any more info on these?

They're not released yet but :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00D_hw9w9Ms

OLED screens looks great, but the concerns about burn-in and longevity have never been fully put to rest in my mind .

https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/longevity-inv … -update-3-month

red_avatar wrote on 2024-01-17, 22:04:

Jo22 wrote on 2024-01-12, 18:17:

That's not wrong, but there's a catch. What most of you guys think by "CRT" monitor is probably a mid-90s VGA monitor with a 0.2 […]
Show full quote

red_avatar wrote on 2024-01-11, 11:15:

[..] If you also want to do CRT shading, you HAVE to have a high resolution monitor - 4K is recommended - to emulate the CRT "pixels" [..].

That's not wrong, but there's a catch. What most of you guys think by "CRT" monitor is probably a mid-90s VGA monitor with a 0.2mm dot pitch.
A classic 1987 MCGA/VGA monitor has a dot pitch 0f 0.4mm, though! The infamous Tandy VGM-225 had 0.52 mm, even!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m79HxULt3O8
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/bad … ndy-1000.42604/

Now the funny thing is, that games in 320x200 look nice on such low-res CRTs.
The bigger the pixels (the lower the monitor's capability to resolve the image), the better the colour blending!

So unless high-resolution graphics are being used (CAD, SVGA), a coarse CRT emulation might be the way to go.
For this, an 1080p screen should suffice.

That's true but 4K will make SVGA games look absolutely gorgeous. The mid 90's screens are what I grew up with and while 320X200 still locks quite blocky, for 640x480 and 800x600 it looks amazing. When you play a game like Commandos on a CRT you can't see any pixels and it makes it look so nice & detailed. You then play it on a CRT and ... dear lord.

I have a 19" Philips CRT from 2001 which is too sharp for its own good and I never felt that happy about it even though it's a ridiculously good monitor (does 1600x1200 at 85Hz) that cost over €1000 at the time but yeah ... while it's great for high resolutions, retro gaming is all about lower resolutions.

Hi there! That's also my experience. Playing, say, MS Flight Simulator or Frederic Pohl's Gateway in 800x600 on a high quality CRT is a fine experience.
I do fondly rememer playing Toons Truck and ST: A Finaly Unity in higher resolution. Way back in the day on my fathers 20" CRT (by the time, it was on my desktop).
I think I had to fiddle with a refresh utility or the monitor knobs to get it working. Also had Skyglobe in SVGA running on that thing, was amazing!

Edit: The LCD/TFT owners here will also have a better experience in SVGA, of course.

red_avatar wrote on 2024-01-17, 22:04:

That's true but 4K will make SVGA games look absolutely gorgeous. The mid 90's screens are what I grew up with and while 320X200 still locks quite blocky, for 640x480 and 800x600 it looks amazing. When you play a game like Commandos on a CRT you can't see any pixels and it makes it look so nice & detailed. You then play it on a CRT and ... dear lord.

I have a 19" Philips CRT from 2001 which is too sharp for its own good and I never felt that happy about it even though it's a ridiculously good monitor (does 1600x1200 at 85Hz) that cost over €1000 at the time but yeah ... while it's great for high resolutions, retro gaming is all about lower resolutions.

Can you explain how a 4k monitor make SVGA games look good when you also say a 19" CRT is too sharp ? Just curious 😀

Pixel density has increased over the years, among other things.

darry wrote on 2024-01-17, 22:13:

OLED screens looks great, but the concerns about burn-in and longevity have never been fully put to rest in my mind .

https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/longevity-inv … -update-3-month

In germany 3 years covered, how i know.

Horun wrote on 2024-01-18, 04:08:

red_avatar wrote on 2024-01-17, 22:04:

That's true but 4K will make SVGA games look absolutely gorgeous. The mid 90's screens are what I grew up with and while 320X200 still locks quite blocky, for 640x480 and 800x600 it looks amazing. When you play a game like Commandos on a CRT you can't see any pixels and it makes it look so nice & detailed. You then play it on a CRT and ... dear lord.

I have a 19" Philips CRT from 2001 which is too sharp for its own good and I never felt that happy about it even though it's a ridiculously good monitor (does 1600x1200 at 85Hz) that cost over €1000 at the time but yeah ... while it's great for high resolutions, retro gaming is all about lower resolutions.

Can you explain how a 4k monitor make SVGA games look good when you also say a 19" CRT is too sharp ? Just curious 😀

I have same problem with the trinitrons, i can see the lines and the pixels too, in an average shadow mask 17” is not an issue, on oled we have pure pixels. Both are better from my perspective.

Horun wrote on 2024-01-18, 04:08:

red_avatar wrote on 2024-01-17, 22:04:

That's true but 4K will make SVGA games look absolutely gorgeous. The mid 90's screens are what I grew up with and while 320X200 still locks quite blocky, for 640x480 and 800x600 it looks amazing. When you play a game like Commandos on a CRT you can't see any pixels and it makes it look so nice & detailed. You then play it on a CRT and ... dear lord.

I have a 19" Philips CRT from 2001 which is too sharp for its own good and I never felt that happy about it even though it's a ridiculously good monitor (does 1600x1200 at 85Hz) that cost over €1000 at the time but yeah ... while it's great for high resolutions, retro gaming is all about lower resolutions.

Can you explain how a 4k monitor make SVGA games look good when you also say a 19" CRT is too sharp ? Just curious 😀

Easy: the reason people love CRTs, is because they mask pixel edges. The image looks a lot smoother & more organic compared to LCD where every pixel is an extremely sharp one.

A 4K monitor lets you use detailed CRT shaders where you can actually simulate a mid 90s CRT really well and OLED is great because you can mimic deep blacks which CRTs also had so combine the two and you can get pretty close to how a CRT actually looked like on a modern display but with the added benefits of lower power consumption, less weight & size, etc.

Early LCD panels were pretty terrible with blacks being dark grey at best, lots of colour bleeding, TL light yellowing, relatively low resolutions, bad viewing angles, poor color accuracy, slower refresh rates locked at 60Hz, screen tearing without Vsync, looked horrible when not using the native resolution, input latency, etc. etc. etc.

Even modern LCD monitors STILL share many of these problems - deep blacks are still bad, screen tearing is still a thing, etc. but at least modern IPS panels offer nice colours, the viewing angle has massively improved and the higher resolutions mean that using a slightly lower resolution doesn't look as horrible as it used to.

At a typical crt the black was far from real black, and the top nit is also not comparable to the nowadays standards.