VOGONS


Reply 20 of 34, by Cloudschatze

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kool kitty89 wrote:

...what about the pre-CQM ASIC implementations of OPL3 used on many Creative cards...

This was definitively answered here, as specifically relates to the CT1747:

Trying to find out about a particular AWE32

... I'd have to guess that CQM was developed as a cost saving measure that worked around Yamaha patents/licenses.

Prior to its expiration in 1995, Yamaha was the sole licensee of John Chowning/Stanford University's FM patent, which is why there weren't any legal "FM" derivatives - CQM, ESFM or otherwise - until this point. Was it a cost-cutting measure (to then not have to purchase Yamaha's product)? You betcha.

Reply 21 of 34, by kool kitty89

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Cloudschatze wrote:
kool kitty89 wrote:

...what about the pre-CQM ASIC implementations of OPL3 used on many Creative cards...

This was definitively answered here, as specifically relates to the CT1747:

Trying to find out about a particular AWE32

OK, cool.

... I'd have to guess that CQM was developed as a cost saving measure that worked around Yamaha patents/licenses.

Prior to its expiration in 1995, Yamaha was the sole licensee of John Chowning/Stanford University's FM patent, which is why there weren't any legal "FM" derivatives - CQM, ESFM or otherwise - until this point. Was it a cost-cutting measure (to then not have to purchase Yamaha's product)? You betcha.

That's, of course, assuming that Creative didn't have a very tight/favorable relationship with Yamaha as a chip vendor in general and that they had access to significantly cheaper chip fab options that would not only make it worthwhile to invest in developing a clone chip, but also make it work cutting off Yamaha manufacturing in general.
Creative being Singapore based (not Japan based) would probably have favored that option too.

A counter-example would be a cases like Sega had in the late 80s and most of the 90s, where they not only used/licensed Yahama chips in their home/arcade hardware, but also used Yamaha as the primary chip vendor for many of their custom ASICs. (including the Video and I/O chips used in the Megadrive/Genesis, as well as later revisions using greater integration)

But as to Yamaha having exclusive rights to FM synthesis: didn't several of Ensoniq's chips allow for the oscillators to be used for producing FM synthesis (as well as additive and plain sample-based synthesis).
Additionally, I'm positive that Flare Technology's 1988 "Slipstream" arcade/console/computer chipset used a DSP with software support for performing FM synthesis. (FM synthesis being the primary intended method for music generation with the DSP, with an on-chip ROM sine table facilitating that)
The DSP in the Atari Jaguar also explicitly had support for FM synthesis in the development manual and a rudimentary wave table ROM to facilitate that (as well as additive/subtractive synthesis methods).

Reply 22 of 34, by HunterZ

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Personally I think most FM synthesizers were wasted on the PC, because they were seen by many game developers as cheap alternatives to higher-quality MIDI synthesizers that also became available around the same time (such as the MT-32 and SC-55 families). They frequently composed MIDI-based soundtracks and then used a driver that converts that on-the-fly to OPL commands.

Most of the more interesting FM synthesis music I've heard is in games from Japanese developers, who were working with consoles and arcade architectures that were specifically built around the FM chips that they used. The Sega Genesis is a good example of a system with a lot of great FM music ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR_dtc3xL_c and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvaO3tJMRmk ).

Reply 23 of 34, by kool kitty89

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HunterZ wrote:

Personally I think most FM synthesizers were wasted on the PC, because they were seen by many game developers as cheap alternatives to higher-quality MIDI synthesizers that also became available around the same time (such as the MT-32 and SC-55 families). They frequently composed MIDI-based soundtracks and then used a driver that converts that on-the-fly to OPL commands.

Most of the more interesting FM synthesis music I've heard is in games from Japanese developers, who were working with consoles and arcade architectures that were specifically built around the FM chips that they used. The Sega Genesis is a good example of a system with a lot of great FM music ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR_dtc3xL_c and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvaO3tJMRmk ).

This is part of the problem, but another part was the lack of good MIDI drivers/trackers available for the FM chips at the time . . . this also plagued the Sega Genesis and many western arcade games. (late 80s and early 90s Atari and Midway games, among other examples)

It's not just an issue of lack of effort, but limited documentation and tools as well as different game development philosophies in different regions.
There was the issue of poorly translated Japanese technical manuals and limited documentation for the hardware in general. (several of these problems are absent from the likes of the MT-32, or Commodore Amiga for that matter -with a variety of trackers and such being developed)
Some of these issues also extend to the variety of other computer sound chips/synthesizers available at the time, from game console to home computer. (though, with western developed hardware you at least avoided the language barrier for all english speaking cases)

Then, beyond that, there's the issue with the programming and composition/arrangement philosophies of the developers. Not speaking specifically on PC games, there's several issues here:
you could have developers with specifically skilled composers versed in both the type of sound generation used (ie setting synth patches and other techniques) AND be competent at low-level programming to the extent of being able to write a sound driver from scratch (or able to work with a relatively low-level, programming-intensive, sound engine -ie not a tracker or MIDI engine).
Alternatively, you could couple a competent composer versed in the specific synth methods in use with a competent programmer to handle the coding end of things.
Or you could invest in a proper tracker/midi engine with support for lots of customization (custom patches, tweaks, etc), but with a high-level interface that the average (modestly tech-savvy) musician could easily understand. (which was the case for many high-end synth boxes as well as the likes of the Amiga -and later sampled based PC sound cards and software mixed sample trackers or MOD players)

As it was though, very few cases existed where all those requirements fell into line. Sometimes you had cases of competent sound programmers with mediocre compositions, but more often you saw mediocre MIDI (or other sound) drivers coupled with good or also mediocre compositions. (this includes Adlib, arcade, and Sega hardware)

That said, there were exceptions outside of Japanese developers, particularly in Europe, though with DOS PC games relatively unpopular at the time (prior to mid-90s), you see this much more with several 8 and 16-bit home computers (particularly the C64, Atari ST, and Amiga -though a few notable cases on Atari 8-bit, ZX Spectrum, and Amstrad CPC as well), as well as some notable examples on the NES and Sega Genesis. (the latter case more directly comparable to the PC situation, though the FM chips used are significantly different)

It should also be noted that many, quite impressive, modern OPL chiptunes are facilitated in part by very well written and flexible modern composition software (like Adlib Tracker II) in addition to competent composers.

Aside from those issues, there's also the limits of raw FM itself and the lack of sampled instruments (especially drums) to add some spice to the weaker areas of FM hardware (something nearly all the better Genesis and Arcade FM tracks do, Japanese, American, or European), which virtually no PC games did . . . not even a single percussion channel (even cut-out by SFX -which some Sega games did). And it should be noted that the Soundblaster's DMA PCM playback made it considerably easier to achieve this than the totally software driven cycle-timed playback through a bare DAC on the Genesis. (a la Covox parallel port DAC except using a 3.58 MHz Z80 without any timer interrupts)

Even the best sounding US developed PC game I know of (Wacky Wheels) still lacks PCM percussion, though it also manages to do some of the best FM percussion I've heard on any OPL soundtrack.

If the MT-32 hadn't been designed and marketed towards musicians (with software support to match), it probably would have suffered a similar fate in quality performance (at least relative to potential) as FM cards in PCs.
Likewise, had said FM cards been comprehensively been supported for use by musicians, they probably would have sounded far better on average. (rather than leaving it up to 3rd parties to make the investment in such software on top of limited/poorly translated documentation)

Reply 24 of 34, by someperson42

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Ace wrote:

-Aztech FM: Pretty much perfect. The only difference I've noticed is heavier quantization noise. This OPL3 clone was tested on this card: http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/3886/hpazt … techazt2.th.jpg

I can vouch for this. I have an Aztech Sound Galaxy Washington 16, and it is by far my favorite DOS-era sound card. Not only is the OPL near-perfect, but the PCM is good, and it also has a wavetable header that is properly placed and appears to be immune to Creative's infamous hanging notes bug! It also requires no TSRs to function.

I spent a lot of time last year looking for the perfect card to host my NEC XR385 (exact clone of Yamaha DB60XG) without realizing that I already had what I needed. Since I learned how to actually configured it properly, this card has served me very well.

Reply 25 of 34, by HunterZ

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kool, I think you hit the nail on the head.

I think Hyperspeed (and probably Lightspeed, which I haven't played but is basically the same game) is another rare example of a PC game with a notably good FM-optimized soundtrack. Its MT-32 soundtrack actually sounds fairly terrible in some places by comparison, which makes me think it's really just a poor adaptation of the OPL compositions (and I've thus marked it as such on the Wikipedia MT-32 games list).

Reply 26 of 34, by Ace

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Beaten to it, but I'll answer this anyways.

kool kitty89 wrote:

Ace, what about the pre-CQM ASIC implementations of OPL3 used on many Creative cards (SB-16, Vibra, AWE-32, etc). I specifically mean the examples where the "OPL" insignia is explicitly present on the board or ASIC.

I'm positive you've discussed them before, but I can't remember the details. Are they not clones, but full, licenced OPL3 derivatives embedded on an ASIC (similar to Sega's embedded YM3438)?

The CT1747 is made by Yamaha for Creative, so inside the chip is an actual YMF262. It's not like Sega did with the YM3438 (corrected for you) where not only did they make an ASIC version of the YM3438, but they altered it a bit (I can't remember the specifics).

Creator of The Many Sounds of:, a collection of various DOS games played using different sound cards.

Reply 27 of 34, by NJRoadfan

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someperson42 wrote:

I can vouch for this. I have an Aztech Sound Galaxy Washington 16, and it is by far my favorite DOS-era sound card. Not only is the OPL near-perfect, but the PCM is good, and it also has a wavetable header that is properly placed and appears to be immune to Creative's infamous hanging notes bug! It also requires no TSRs to function.

Many Aztech cards came with a real OPL3. I know the Aztech made "Sound144AM" that came in my old Packard Bell had the OPL logo chip on it. They also have the bonus of being Windows Sound System 16-bit audio compatible for those games that supported it.

Reply 28 of 34, by Cloudschatze

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kool kitty89 wrote:

But as to Yamaha having exclusive rights to FM synthesis: didn't several of Ensoniq's chips allow for the oscillators to be used for producing FM synthesis (as well as additive and plain sample-based synthesis).
Additionally, I'm positive that Flare Technology's 1988 "Slipstream" arcade/console/computer chipset used a DSP with software support for performing FM synthesis. (FM synthesis being the primary intended method for music generation with the DSP, with an on-chip ROM sine table facilitating that)
The DSP in the Atari Jaguar also explicitly had support for FM synthesis in the development manual and a rudimentary wave table ROM to facilitate that (as well as additive/subtractive synthesis methods).

These sound like prime examples of things that are either A.) Not FM (as is the case with Ensoniq's solution), or B.) Patent-infringing. Pick one. 😀

kool kitty89 wrote:

If the MT-32 hadn't been designed and marketed towards musicians (with software support to match), it probably would have suffered a similar fate in quality performance (at least relative to potential) as FM cards in PCs.
Likewise, had said FM cards been comprehensively been supported for use by musicians, they probably would have sounded far better on average. (rather than leaving it up to 3rd parties to make the investment in such software on top of limited/poorly translated documentation)

Like the MT-32, the Ad Lib MSC was also initially marketed toward musicians, and had available composition software (Visual Composer), FM voicing software (Instrument Maker), and a full SDK with detailed driver/programming examples and documentation, all within the same year of its release.

Lack of documentation/support was likely less of a contributing factor in poor-quality FM playback than was the choice to simply (and this is my opinion) follow Sierra's lead and compose specifically with/for the MT-32. In contrast, those developers that instead focused on the Ad Lib, for whatever reason and duration, managed to produce decent enough work. Here's one of the earliest such pieces, from 1988:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTV3kTo-1E8

HunterZ wrote:

I think Hyperspeed (and probably Lightspeed, which I haven't played but is basically the same game) is another rare example of a PC game with a notably good FM-optimized soundtrack. Its MT-32 soundtrack actually sounds fairly terrible in some places by comparison, which makes me think it's really just a poor adaptation of the OPL compositions (and I've thus marked it as such on the Wikipedia MT-32 games list).

MicroProse is an anomaly that I'm still trying to figure out, but you're absolutely correct - the MT-32 support is astoundingly weak in a number of their earlier titles, taking a back seat to the FM playback. MicroProse was not only pretty deep with their OPL2 programming (going so far as to make use of PWM sample playback), but also supported dual-OPL2 to a remarkable degree. You might find this interesting:

http://queststudios.com/smf/index.php/topic,3341.0.html

Reply 30 of 34, by kool kitty89

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Cloudschatze wrote:

Lack of documentation/support was likely less of a contributing factor in poor-quality FM playback than was the choice to simply (and this is my opinion) follow Sierra's lead and compose specifically with/for the MT-32. In contrast, those developers that instead focused on the Ad Lib, for whatever reason and duration, managed to produce decent enough work. Here's one of the earliest such pieces, from 1988:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTV3kTo-1E8

That's perhaps not the best example to give since Hubbard was among the few stand-out computer game music composers of the time, among a few other (particularly European) composers/sound programmers. (off the top of my head, Tim Follin is one of the most obvious, as is Chris Hulsbeck, Matt Furniss also comes to mind)

It's my understanding that one of the major reasons European and Japanese FM computer/game music (be it PC, Arcade, or console) was often better than North American stuff was the development/spread of more advanced techniques specific to computer controlled FM synth. (on top of raw use of the synth chips themselves -ie various FM patches)
Among those are many examples of combining channels/voices for additional effects/sounds not possible by using plain 2 or 4-op channels, from simple use of additive synth/harmonization to reverb/echo. Some other techniques were outgrowths of those developed for simpler PGS-type sound chips (like the AY8910, SN76489, POKEY, SID, or the NES's Ricoh embedded sound), like rapid arpeggios simulating chords, software generated envelopes, vibrato, modulation effects, etc. (not to mention chip-specific exploits) For that matter, a lot of Amiga music uses those sorts of techniques too. (especially the simpler chip-synth stuff using simple waveforms)

And for that sort of stuff, you need good documentation with experienced/knowledgeable programmers and composers on top of that. (or very comprehensive software with built-in high-level support for many of those techniques/tricks)
Programmers, composers, and/or music software the treats the OPL simply as a 9-voice synthesizer would hardly be pushing its true potential. Real, rich and full arrangements would often only be possible when setting up an arrangement for fewer simultaneous voices than that to allow more complex sounds (via additive synth) and/or effects (like reverb/echo) as well as re-loading/changing instruments on the fly. (both in terms of the raw FM patches and in terms of channel pairing, since in this case a single "instrument" wouldn't necessarily use a single 2-op voice)

Wacky Wheels is most definitely not using simple 2-op voices for most of its instruments.

On a more general note though, Lucas Arts seemed to have relatively decent Adlib/SB support on top of MT-32 support (I'd even go so far to say that some cases were superior in OPL2 or OPL3 than MT-32 -I personally prefer X-Wing CD's and Tie Fighter's 4-op FM to the MT-32 renditions). OTOH, some developers who had little to no MT-32 support still only managed average sounding OPL stuff. (as with many id and Apogee games)

And in many cases where developers were apparently composing MT-32 tracks and directly translating (not re-aranging or remixing) to OPL midi, there's tons of examples of FM instruments sounding nowhere near as close to MT-32 counterparts as they could have (totally different instruments in some cases -not totally unlike MT-32 "emulation" support via AWE32 and such).

Composing tracks that don't cater well to FM in general is one thing, but simply remapping instruments poorly is another entirely. Sure, MT-32 music often wasn't ideally suited to the OPL2 (or OPL3) capabilities, but many cases could have been translated much more effectively, at least by using some custom patches/instruments to better correspond to MT-32 counterparts, if not more so. (reverb simulation, use of PCM channels -at least once SB support became common, etc)

And another note on the documentation issue: aside from normal documentation and tools released (well translated or not), there's the issue of bugs/quirks of chips that may not be addressed in standard documentation at all, but discovered by programmers and noted accordingly (worked around or exploited). It's certainly possible that Japanese developers had better and/or earlier access to this information (by experience or sharing/trading/collaborating). And it's also certainly likely that programmers (anywhere) working harder to understand any such quirks (in addition to new/different techniques in general) would be able to better utilize the hardware in general (and potentially write similarly better software).

These practices (in addition to synth techniques or "tricks" in general) seem to have been far more pervasive in Japan and Europe than North America.
The US-centric nature of DOS PC games of the time, as well as Japanese-specific platforms and popular European platforms (ST and Amiga were far stronger than in the US, and C64 got much later software support), so those are not directly comparable in many cases. The likes of the NES and Megadrive/Genesis are much more comparable though, with fairly broad software support from all 3 regions. (and in both cases, there's a significantly higher number of impressive compositions/arrangements from Europe and Japan than the US -albeit the NES is a less even example due to the huge percentage of Japanese developed games)

Reply 31 of 34, by Mau1wurf1977

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In Monkey Island 2 for example the MT-32 version has several sounds missing. For example in the bar or at the swamp. The game feels less "alive" compared to playing it with Sound Blaster.

Through ScummVM however you can used a function "something called mixed Adlib or something like that" that will play MT-32 sounds when available and Sound Blaster sounds when there is no MT-32 sound.

It wasn't a technical limitation as you can hear the bat sounds in another section of the game. I think they must have run out of time or it wasn't a priority.

Sierra had terrific sound effects through the MT-32. In many games the Sound Blaster sounds are simply recordings from a MT-32.

Reply 32 of 34, by HunterZ

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I think the X-Wing and/or Tie Fighter CD versions may have been (re)mixed for General MIDI rather than MT-32. While they still had MT-32 support, it may have been by way of trying to map GM instruments onto the MT-32 patch set (or a lame GM-ish custom patch set).

Reply 33 of 34, by kool kitty89

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HunterZ wrote:

I think the X-Wing and/or Tie Fighter CD versions may have been (re)mixed for General MIDI rather than MT-32. While they still had MT-32 support, it may have been by way of trying to map GM instruments onto the MT-32 patch set (or a lame GM-ish custom patch set).

I don't think I've heard the MT-32 renditions of X-Wing CD, just the floppy disk version, but doesn't Tie Fighter use the same sound engine for both versions? (with the sound engine from the FD version of Tie-Fighter being used for X-Wing CD -along with the updated renderer)

In any case I was comparing the MT-32 music from floppy X-Wing with Adlib on floppy and 2-op and 4-op FM from CD X-Wing. I much prefer CD X-Wing's 4-op FM to the MT-32 and more-so the Floppy Adlib music. The 2-op CD music is OK too, but a bit watered down or subdued compared to 4-op. (and 4-op doesn't so much seem to be using the 4-op algorithms as it is simply using the OPL3's added channels for stereo effects and addtive synth voices or greater polyphony -including a greater harmonizing orchestral sound, which is more or less additive synth in some respects)

As for General Midi . . . it depends a bit, both on the music tracks compared and the card/module used. The standard Roland based GM sample set (used in windows -and at higher quality in Roland cards/modules) sounds pretty good for the most part (a bit weaker in the MS implementation though), but the 4-op FM midi hold up well in all cases and I tend to prefer it generally.
That said, the FM percussion still leaves something to be desired, as is typically the case even for above average FM music. (supporting a couple sampled percussion channels could have done wonders)

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:
In Monkey Island 2 for example the MT-32 version has several sounds missing. For example in the bar or at the swamp. The game fe […]
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In Monkey Island 2 for example the MT-32 version has several sounds missing. For example in the bar or at the swamp. The game feels less "alive" compared to playing it with Sound Blaster.

Through ScummVM however you can used a function "something called mixed Adlib or something like that" that will play MT-32 sounds when available and Sound Blaster sounds when there is no MT-32 sound.

It wasn't a technical limitation as you can hear the bat sounds in another section of the game. I think they must have run out of time or it wasn't a priority.

Sierra had terrific sound effects through the MT-32. In many games the Sound Blaster sounds are simply recordings from a MT-32.

Are you talking about digital sound effects (specific to soundblaster) or FM/adlib sounds that are simply missing MT-32 counterparts?

The MT-32 doesn't support digital sample playback (aside from the internal ROM), so you'd need a soundblaster/compatble (or alternate digital sound card, if supported -or a basic Covox/Disney Sound Source DAC) used in conjunction with the MT-32 (or LAPC-I) to get the full effect of both.

I'm not sure if Monkey Island 2 uses any sampled sound at all though. I thought it was just Adlib, so it would just be FM SFX in that case.

Reply 34 of 34, by Mau1wurf1977

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In short the Adlib version has sounds in places that are silent with the MT-32. Some sounds are sampled for Sound Blaster. Monkey Island 2 only supports one sound option not two (MT-32 AND Sound Blaster).

ScummVM however does exactly this. MT-32 AND Sound Blaster whenever MT-32 sounds are not present.

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