There's a handful of win9x games that are speed-sensitive and require slowdown utilities to run properly on fast CPUs (Wipeout XL and Outcast come to mind). I'm not sure what the exact wall is for max speed in these cases, but I think it's around 600-700 MHz.

If he doesn't want to deal with slowdown utilities, but he also doesn't mind changing bios settings occasionally, it might be best to find a fast CPU with unlocked multiplier, so an unlocked Athlon or Duron might make sense.

Stull wrote:

People 'round here claim that a Voodoo2 will fry itself if it's run with too fast of a CPU. I have not verified this. 😜

Windows 98 can have issues with CPUs faster than 2.2GHz.

If he still insists on a P4, you'll want to choose a chipset with AGP, as PCI-E won't fly with '98. And (obviously) make sure there's driver support for it..

What's with the "2.2 GHz" issue?
Would that mean an Athlon XP 3200+ (2200 MHz) or Athlon 64 3200/3400/3500+ (all 2200 MHz, depending on specific model) or slower would be fine, but a P4 2.4 or faster would have problems?

I am not worried about the pass though cable. I have a V2 in my PII 266 system and used one of those port saver cables. work's well.

The biggest most demanding game he wants to run is "Microsoft Train Simulator" and Urban Chaos along with NFS 4. Thanks

chinny22 wrote:

I can test a game or 2 if you tell me which ones?

I know in NFS4 Dolphin Cove gets a bit choppy on that up hill forrest bit just near past the light house if there is alot going on, ie cops, traffic, AI all in the 1 spot at the same time, but I've had the same issue with a Gforce4 on a P2 400 back in the day, On the P4 2.6 with its onboard Intel 845 graphics or with a single V2, so think thats more the game at fault.

I dont have the other 2 games but pretty sure they use D3D not glide?
I've only got a 32MB TNT2 so dont think I'll be much help with those games but if I can find a copy I'll give it a try

kool kitty89 wrote:

There's a handful of win9x games that are speed-sensitive and require slowdown utilities to run properly on fast CPUs (Wipeout XL and Outcast come to mind). I'm not sure what the exact wall is for max speed in these cases, but I think it's around 600-700 MHz.

If he doesn't want to deal with slowdown utilities, but he also doesn't mind changing bios settings occasionally, it might be best to find a fast CPU with unlocked multiplier, so an unlocked Athlon or Duron might make sense.

I overlooked this before, but for underclocking to ~600 MHz, 133 MHz FSB PIIIs should also be good options. (switching to 66 FSB will halve the speed)

And seeing as the system you're now working on is a PIII 1000, if you can switch the bus to 66 MHz, you should be fine for those few cases of speed-sensitive mid/late 90s games. If it's the 100 MHz FSB version, you'll still get it down to 667 MHz, so that should be OK too.

If glide games are important, a Voodoo 3 3000 should be a good alternative to Vodoo2 SLI (with some advantages too), and should be relatively inexpensive. Like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/3DFX-VOODOO3-3000-16- … =item4ab9e13f36

If Glide support isn't that important, and since you already mentioned DOS compatibility isn't an issue, then you could probably just go for any number of AGP cards from the end of the 90s or early 2000s. Going overkill isn't really a problem so long as the cards are cheap/easy to get hold of (unless you're aiming at period accurate limitations rather than just running the games at good/best quality).

Some later AGP cards may have driver issues with Win9x or possibly with older games, so double check for that, but most ~1999-2002 era cards should be OK for OpenGL and D3D in win9x. (Rage 128 Pro, TNT, Matrox G400, various Radeon and Geforce cards, etc)

kool kitty89 wrote:

I overlooked this before, but for underclocking to ~600 MHz, 133 MHz FSB PIIIs should also be good options. (switching to 66 FSB […]
Show full quote

kool kitty89 wrote:

There's a handful of win9x games that are speed-sensitive and require slowdown utilities to run properly on fast CPUs (Wipeout XL and Outcast come to mind). I'm not sure what the exact wall is for max speed in these cases, but I think it's around 600-700 MHz.

If he doesn't want to deal with slowdown utilities, but he also doesn't mind changing bios settings occasionally, it might be best to find a fast CPU with unlocked multiplier, so an unlocked Athlon or Duron might make sense.

I overlooked this before, but for underclocking to ~600 MHz, 133 MHz FSB PIIIs should also be good options. (switching to 66 FSB will halve the speed)

And seeing as the system you're now working on is a PIII 1000, if you can switch the bus to 66 MHz, you should be fine for those few cases of speed-sensitive mid/late 90s games. If it's the 100 MHz FSB version, you'll still get it down to 667 MHz, so that should be OK too.

If glide games are important, a Voodoo 3 3000 should be a good alternative to Vodoo2 SLI (with some advantages too), and should be relatively inexpensive. Like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/3DFX-VOODOO3-3000-16- … =item4ab9e13f36

If Glide support isn't that important, and since you already mentioned DOS compatibility isn't an issue, then you could probably just go for any number of AGP cards from the end of the 90s or early 2000s. Going overkill isn't really a problem so long as the cards are cheap/easy to get hold of (unless you're aiming at period accurate limitations rather than just running the games at good/best quality).

Some later AGP cards may have driver issues with Win9x or possibly with older games, so double check for that, but most ~1999-2002 era cards should be OK for OpenGL and D3D in win9x. (Rage 128 Pro, TNT, Matrox G400, various Radeon and Geforce cards, etc)

You must not have read through the whole thread, op's friend wanted to do this around a P4 system. If that p4 system doesn't have one of the few 3.3v supported boards no 1/2x 3.3v era agp card will work.

nforce4max wrote:

You must not have read through the whole thread, op's friend wanted to do this around a P4 system. If that p4 system doesn't have one of the few 3.3v supported boards no 1/2x 3.3v era agp card will work.

He seemed to imply they were working on this PIII 1000 system in his 2nd post:

coppercitymt wrote:

Thanks for all the feedback, We are a bit confused, What's the best graphics card choice for a 1ghz P III PCI? The system has integrated AGP graphics.

COMPAQ PRESARIO 5012US

And combo (non-keyed) AGP P4 boards shouldn't be that hard to find . . . for that matter, it also shouldn't be that hard to find dual-keyed (universal) AGP video cards from the early 2000s. (which would include late vintage G400, 128-pro, TNT, etc)

P4 boards of the same vintage of such (3.3V AGP) video cards would also likely be compatible. (the ~2001 MSI DDR board I have is like that, as is an intel OEM board)

kool kitty89 wrote:

He seemed to imply they were working on this PIII 1000 system in his 2nd post: […]
Show full quote

nforce4max wrote:

You must not have read through the whole thread, op's friend wanted to do this around a P4 system. If that p4 system doesn't have one of the few 3.3v supported boards no 1/2x 3.3v era agp card will work.

He seemed to imply they were working on this PIII 1000 system in his 2nd post:

coppercitymt wrote:

Thanks for all the feedback, We are a bit confused, What's the best graphics card choice for a 1ghz P III PCI? The system has integrated AGP graphics.

COMPAQ PRESARIO 5012US

And combo (non-keyed) AGP P4 boards shouldn't be that hard to find . . . for that matter, it also shouldn't be that hard to find dual-keyed (universal) AGP video cards from the early 2000s. (which would include late vintage G400, 128-pro, TNT, etc)

P4 boards of the same vintage of such (3.3V AGP) video cards would also likely be compatible. (the ~2001 MSI DDR board I have is like that, as is an intel OEM board)

I only found two p4 boards that that likely support 3DFX agp cards and one is known to be safe with the v5 6k. http://www.asus.com/999/html/events/mb/socket … -e/overview.htm

There is another by Abit that uses the same chipset.

I ( and you) talked him down to a P-III 1ghz so that's what he will be using but still left with no AGP slot and on-board graphics. I think he wants to go with one of those brand new Jaton PCI Geforce 2 MX PCI cards 64MB. Also what choice on the OS ME or 98?

W98SE would be the way to go 😀

Win 98 se hands down, sure ME sometimes works but it is a storage hog and is very buggy at times. As for the video card there are more options than just a geforce2 mx. Try hunting for a used geforce 6200 pci as it has drivers for win 98 (not the latest) and some dos compatibility but don't have one to test that in person. Beyond that the rest should be very easy.

coppercitymt wrote:

I ( and you) talked him down to a P-III 1ghz so that's what he will be using but still left with no AGP slot and on-board graphics. I think he wants to go with one of those brand new Jaton PCI Geforce 2 MX PCI cards 64MB. Also what choice on the OS ME or 98?

Ah, sorry, I'd missed the comment about the board lacking AGP.

So, did you decide whether Glide support is important or not? By the Geforce 2MX comment, I'd guess not.

This dude is driving me nuts 😉. He wants both glide and D3D, with no AGP slot I don't know I can pull that off! And want's it perord correct

kool kitty89 wrote:

coppercitymt wrote:

I ( and you) talked him down to a P-III 1ghz so that's what he will be using but still left with no AGP slot and on-board graphics. I think he wants to go with one of those brand new Jaton PCI Geforce 2 MX PCI cards 64MB. Also what choice on the OS ME or 98?

Ah, sorry, I'd missed the comment about the board lacking AGP.

So, did you decide whether Glide support is important or not? By the Geforce 2MX comment, I'd guess not.

coppercitymt wrote:

And want's it perord correct

Leave your friend to his own devices. Down this path lies only madness. 😜

I could have not said it better myself! It really is madness. 🤣

Jorpho wrote:

coppercitymt wrote:

And want's it perord correct

Leave your friend to his own devices. Down this path lies only madness. 😜

Your friend needs to learn on his own anyhow. He will eventually learn that what he is building isn't going to be all that great.

True , so your saying the Compaq 1ghz is not good system, or what do you mean what part is not good?

nforce4max wrote:

Your friend needs to learn on his own anyhow. He will eventually learn that what he is building isn't going to be all that great.

coppercitymt wrote:

This dude is driving me nuts 😉. He wants both glide and D3D, with no AGP slot I don't know I can pull that off! And want's it perord correct

Hmm, so he went from wanting to use a P4 to wanting something period-accurate? (circa 1999/2000, I assume)

You could probably make do with a single video card for D3D, Glide, and OpenGL with one of the later 3DFX cards. A voodoo 5 would tend to be a bit pricy (and you're on a budget), but a Voodoo 4 might be a good compromise. A voodoo 4 might end up being beyond your planned budget too, though.

Voodoo 3 would be a bottleneck for that CPU in most cases (unless you dropped the detail/resolution fairly low), and you also won't have 32-bit color support. OTOH, a Voodoo 3 3000 should still be pretty decent for most things in the era you're talking about. (and the 16-bit color quality is good enough that you don't miss that much for 32-bit) I think D3D and OpenGL support is relatively good for the Voodoo 3 too, at least through DirectX 6.x (which will cover the vast majority of games in question).
Anything requiring DirectX 7 or higher will almost certainly work on a modern system anyway.

If you want to go multi-card and don't want to deal with a VGA switchbox (or manually plugging the cable in), a Voodoo 2 set-up would probably be more convenient alongside a good D3D/OpenGL capable PCI card. But, unless you can manage to get dual voodoo 2s on the cheap (and the added card), that's probably going to get pricey too.

If you have any reasonably fast PCI video cards on-hand already, it might just make sense to start with that and let him get a feel for things before moving on. If you don't have anything on-hand, then a voodoo 3 would probably be the best starting point if you can get one cheaply. It's certainly period-accurate and fast enough to at least run games from ~1999/2000 reasonably well (it is a 1999 vintage card, after all). DOS compatibility is also pretty good on the voodoo 3, in case your friend ever decides to take interest in that. (even if he's mainly into 3D stuff, there's quite a few late DOS games that might be of interest)

Short of the voodoo 3 (or better in some respects) PCI Rage 128 Pro, TNT, or Matrox G400 would be decent choices if you can find them cheaply. All 3 were relatively common in PCI iirc, though still mostly made in AGP.
If you can't find any of those for less than the Geforce2MX PCI, then just go with that and deal with glide later. (or use a wrapper, but the GF2MX might be too slow for that to work well)

kool kitty89 wrote:

Hmm, so he went from wanting to use a P4 to wanting something period-accurate? (circa 1999/2000, I assume) […]
Show full quote

coppercitymt wrote:

This dude is driving me nuts 😉. He wants both glide and D3D, with no AGP slot I don't know I can pull that off! And want's it perord correct

Hmm, so he went from wanting to use a P4 to wanting something period-accurate? (circa 1999/2000, I assume)

You could probably make do with a single video card for D3D, Glide, and OpenGL with one of the later 3DFX cards. A voodoo 5 would tend to be a bit pricy (and you're on a budget), but a Voodoo 4 might be a good compromise. A voodoo 4 might end up being beyond your planned budget too, though.

Voodoo 3 would be a bottleneck for that CPU in most cases (unless you dropped the detail/resolution fairly low), and you also won't have 32-bit color support. OTOH, a Voodoo 3 3000 should still be pretty decent for most things in the era you're talking about. (and the 16-bit color quality is good enough that you don't miss that much for 32-bit) I think D3D and OpenGL support is relatively good for the Voodoo 3 too, at least through DirectX 6.x (which will cover the vast majority of games in question).
Anything requiring DirectX 7 or higher will almost certainly work on a modern system anyway.

If you want to go multi-card and don't want to deal with a VGA switchbox (or manually plugging the cable in), a Voodoo 2 set-up would probably be more convenient alongside a good D3D/OpenGL capable PCI card. But, unless you can manage to get dual voodoo 2s on the cheap (and the added card), that's probably going to get pricey too.

If you have any reasonably fast PCI video cards on-hand already, it might just make sense to start with that and let him get a feel for things before moving on. If you don't have anything on-hand, then a voodoo 3 would probably be the best starting point if you can get one cheaply. It's certainly period-accurate and fast enough to at least run games from ~1999/2000 reasonably well (it is a 1999 vintage card, after all). DOS compatibility is also pretty good on the voodoo 3, in case your friend ever decides to take interest in that. (even if he's mainly into 3D stuff, there's quite a few late DOS games that might be of interest)

Short of the voodoo 3 (or better in some respects) PCI Rage 128 Pro, TNT, or Matrox G400 would be decent choices if you can find them cheaply. All 3 were relatively common in PCI iirc, though still mostly made in AGP.
If you can't find any of those for less than the Geforce2MX PCI, then just go with that and deal with glide later. (or use a wrapper, but the GF2MX might be too slow for that to work well)

Voodoo 4 prices overlap the price range of Voodoo 5's now. Don't forget that their performance was horrible at the time and nobody bought them so that makes them rare. A Voodoo 3 might be better for someone not looking to spend a lot of money because 3dfx made tons of them, especially the OEM cards that overclock easily with the addition of a heatsink.

coppercitymt wrote:

The biggest most demanding game he wants to run is "Microsoft Train Simulator" and Urban Chaos along with NFS 4.

Putting something together that will run these three games can't possibly be that complicated.

ok found a copy of Urban Chaos
I only played the 1st few missions but this is what I found

Glide only supports 800x600 even though I have a SLI setup (I even double checked its working with NFS3)
Frame rate was usually mid 20’s low 30's which plays pretty smooth on that game. It dis drop to mid teens sometimes but didn’t really affect gameplay.
For comparison the AGP TNT2 Pro which supports 1024x768 but I left it at 800x600 would spend more times in the mid teens making driving hard at times so definitely wouldn’t get a PCI TNT card!

I’m getting a copy of MS train Sim but will be away from the PC a few days so won’t be able to test