Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller

Discussion about old PC hardware.

Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller

Postby feipoa » 2018-5-01 @ 17:59

Interesting. I have a board based on this same chipset and the PS/2 mod worked. It, too, originally had the L738C41 KBC.
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Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller

Postby keropi » 2018-5-01 @ 18:52

Weird. Mine just won't boot , just like the kbc is missing. Could be a hardware config issue , go figure... :dead:
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Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller

Postby feipoa » 2018-5-01 @ 19:51

Although, mine has the uncommon AWARD 4.20 BIOS. Looks like yours is AMI.
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Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller

Postby keropi » 2018-5-01 @ 20:22

yep it's AMI ... the boring expected 386-era one LOL
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Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller

Postby Rio444 » 2018-5-16 @ 15:41

feipoa wrote:The other thought is, I am using 2.05K for the current limiting resistor into the transistor's base. You are using 4.7K. Did you determine that 4.7K was needed, or did you just use whatever you had?

Forgive me for missing a long time.
The value of this resistor does not matter much.
It is needed to protect the output of KBC from overload.
In the first version of the device, it was completely absent.
But I'm not sure that all the KBC chips can survive after that.
I would recommend to use mouse data/clock pull-up resistors in the 2-3k range.
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Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller

Postby feipoa » 2018-7-22 @ 03:29

I was thinking that transitioning the PCB solder pads to the other side of the PCB would allow the PCB to be soldered to the top of the KBC. This would eliminate the the issue of merginal contact with the KBC and the KBC socket. I might try such an implementation and use very short wires to connect the PCB to the KBC.
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Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller

Postby keropi » 2018-7-22 @ 12:46

I have abandoned this alltogether. It seems it's not a universal solution and it does not mean that Rio444's design is at fault: only some of my 386/486 mobos work with the *unmodified* VIA KBC , the rest just never boot. ( I mean: remove old kbc from the socket and insert the VIA one , no mods/addons).

Someone else also reported me that although the mod worked for him it was messing with his AWE64 initialization - maybe related to the issue I had that only 8bit VGAs were working for me.
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Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller

Postby feipoa » 2018-7-22 @ 13:06

Did you have any better luck with an AMIKEY-2?

Considering that the mod has worked on 6 different 386 motherboards for me, I am keen to keep with it. It seems to me that this modification would work best on a cased system, not one that is testing a lot of different hardware all the time. When you find a certain motherboard and hardware that works well with the mod, that might be a good set of hardware to stick in a case and call it a day. All 6 boards, of different brand and chipset, worked with this mod using a GD5434-based graphics card in 16-bit colour at 1024x768.
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Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller

Postby keropi » 2018-7-23 @ 16:28

some booted with AMIKEY-2 but there were issues later with the mouse programs. From the top of my head I remember that the FX-3000 for example has no problems with either VIA or AMIKEY-2 controllers , as long as you don't go 16-bit VGA. The Unichip 367C just won't boot with either Amikey-2 or VIA controllers. Even the recent 486DLC board I got only works with it's own AWARD controller, VIA (modded or not) or AMIKEY-2 (modded) just won't boot it.
I would LOVE to find a fully working combo though.
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Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller

Postby feipoa » 2018-7-23 @ 18:03

This is very interesting. I wonder if it has something to do with how the KBC socket on the motherboard is wired.

AWARD made keyboard controllers?
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Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller

Postby keropi » 2018-7-23 @ 18:48

^ yes ofcourse I was wrong , they are the old AMI controllers like this:

Image

my theory is that they initialization process differs, mobos that don't work with the via kbc for example just blank screen - like there is no kbc at all.
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Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller

Postby Rio444 » 2018-8-02 @ 07:02

Friends, did you think about to combine PS/2 mouse with bus mouse (inport) interface?
IMHO, ISA card with bus mouse interface and connected PS/2 mouse would be an excellent solution.
Unfortunately, there is very little information about bus mouse interface. I could not find any documentation. I found only source codes of bus mouse drivers for linux.
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Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller

Postby feipoa » 2018-8-02 @ 07:36

It would be nice to have the PS/2 mouse module on an 8-bit ISA card, like the Microsoft bus mouse systems do. Do you know how to design this?
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Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller

Postby Rio444 » 2018-8-02 @ 08:23

I have several ideas. Probably the implementation will take a long time. I think it is need to combine a CPLD (for example, Altera 7000S) to work with the ISA bus and a microcontroller (atmega or pic) to work with the PS/2 mouse. Or you can only use a FPGA. But it can be more difficult and expensive. I have never worked with the CPLD before, so I study it now. At the same time I look for information on bus mouse interface and try to understand the work of drivers for Linux.
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Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller

Postby Tiido » 2018-8-02 @ 08:29

All the magic is in the driver so you can have any sort of hardware interface you want. CPLD will massively reduce all the logic and buffering needs, single chip than can do everything pretty much. So you choose an IO address or two that isn't gonna conflict with anything, expose the MCU I/O on it and driver will do the rest (and you can use IORDY to extend bus cycles on MCU side to do away with any timing issues).
I think it won't be difficult to modify CuteMouse to support any new hardware interface and for the API side it already does all the hard work for you.
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Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller

Postby keropi » 2018-8-02 @ 09:01

no matter the software solution what we need is a ps/2 or usb connection for the mice. I see now there are usb adapters for amiga/atari/acorn machines but sadly nothing like that exists for the PC. A fast mcu with a usb host (or ps/2 port) that converts to serial will be perfect.
Matze79 made a serial->ps/2 adapter - it works well for low-res stuff, at this point it's the best ps/2 adapter I know of.

Also cutemouse has been proven troublesome with some games leading to freezes , personally I went back to microsoft's driver as I have no time to troubleshoot weird issues :lol:
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Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller

Postby Rio444 » 2018-8-02 @ 10:09

keropi wrote:Also cutemouse has been proven troublesome with some games leading to freezes , personally I went back to microsoft's driver as I have no time to troubleshoot weird issues :lol:

Please tell me name some of these games.
I want to check them on my computers.
Last edited by Rio444 on 2018-8-02 @ 12:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller

Postby keropi » 2018-8-02 @ 11:06

Ultimate Monkey Island Talkie edition and Space Quest 4 comes to mind, using ctmouse 1.91 fixes both IIRC - there are threads here for these issues, the MI one is mine.
Personally I just use UMBs with all my systems so I don't really care about msmouse or mscdex taking too much conventional, I just load them high and have a stable system.
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Re: Native PS/2 mouse implementation for 386/486 boards using the keyboard controller

Postby feipoa » 2018-8-20 @ 08:54

Just tested a new motherboard and I can confirm that the adapter works on an OPTI 495SX-based 386/486 hybrid board in, both, DOS and Windows 3.11. I still cannot use the Logitech DOS or Windows driver though, must use the Microsoft one. Also, still have no middle button access.

Edit, unfortunately, I couldn't get the adapter made with Rio's PCB to work. I only could get my non-PCB module working. Not sure what the issue is there - either contact (PCB too thick), the VIA KBC, a bad transistor, or I wired it incorrectly. The transistors I used were desolders and I have since ordered new transistors. I will try the PCB again, but mounted above the KBC, and with new transistors. This should clear out a few of my uncertainties.
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