VOGONS


First post, by Tek

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Okay straight up, I've never understood that this is all about.

Sound card. Speakers plug into this. We have sound and music. Perfect.
However, when I was younger I would always hear about people having a separate MIDI Device, apparently clicking "General MIDI" wasn't the cure-all solution for everybody.

After building my retro rig recently, I've been trying to look into what exactly a MIDI device actually is and after reading countless threads on here and on the ever-useful Wikipedia, I'm still no closer to understanding. My SBLIve has a daughterboard that allows me to connect an external MIDI device. Is that for input, or for output? I have no idea. I thought an external MIDI device would be a little synthesiser-type object that makes lovely music, as opposed to the music coming from your PC speakers, via your soundcard's on-board MIDI instruments. Am I at least part right?

But in my research I've just uncovered more questions. Some MIDI devices appear to be ISA cards, others seem to be rack-mounted sound modules, some are keyboards. I'm no closer to understanding what (if anything) I should buy to take advantage of this apparently superior method of enjoying MIDI music. It seems to me I'm entering a world as large and complex as PC building itself.

Is there a white paper I'm supposed to have read? Is there a simple method to explaining MIDI sound to somebody who has never read a word on the subject in his life?
Thanks in advance Vogonites.

We'll karaoke all night long, macarena 'til the break of dawn.

Reply 1 of 53, by keropi

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first you need to be sure you know the difference in sound:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9IRWOzs0T0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEn7XNDKwlw

then decide what games you want to play so we can help you pick the best possible midi solution for you.
The live!'s midi ports are in and out, and you connect there a synthesizer to pass the "music data" to it so it produce some sound.
There are several midi standards, as a basic rule older stuff benefit from Roland's LA synthesis (mt-32 and variants) and later ones benefit from a GS/GM device...
But to get a good answer please post what do you want to play and your system's config .

🎵 🎧 PCMIDI MPU , OrpheusII , Action Rewind , Megacard and 🎶GoldLib soundcard website

Reply 2 of 53, by LunarG

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Tek wrote:
Okay straight up, I've never understood that this is all about. […]
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Okay straight up, I've never understood that this is all about.

Sound card. Speakers plug into this. We have sound and music. Perfect.
However, when I was younger I would always hear about people having a separate MIDI Device, apparently clicking "General MIDI" wasn't the cure-all solution for everybody.

After building my retro rig recently, I've been trying to look into what exactly a MIDI device actually is and after reading countless threads on here and on the ever-useful Wikipedia, I'm still no closer to understanding. My SBLIve has a daughterboard that allows me to connect an external MIDI device. Is that for input, or for output? I have no idea. I thought an external MIDI device would be a little synthesiser-type object that makes lovely music, as opposed to the music coming from your PC speakers, via your soundcard's on-board MIDI instruments. Am I at least part right?

But in my research I've just uncovered more questions. Some MIDI devices appear to be ISA cards, others seem to be rack-mounted sound modules, some are keyboards. I'm no closer to understanding what (if anything) I should buy to take advantage of this apparently superior method of enjoying MIDI music. It seems to me I'm entering a world as large and complex as PC building itself.

Is there a white paper I'm supposed to have read? Is there a simple method to explaining MIDI sound to somebody who has never read a word on the subject in his life?
Thanks in advance Vogonites.

You are at least part right. There are many types of midi devices, but what most people are referring to in regards to games are external "midi sound modules". These are basically little boxes (not necessarily black) that rightly play "lovely music" based on input sent from the midi interface in your computer. This can be the game/midi port on an Sound Blaster or similar card or it can be a dedicated MPU-401 board, or in more modern systems it could even be a USB/Firewire unit. There are also internat midi devices, such as Yamaha DB50XG daughterboards, which will do the same job as an external sound module, just through a daughterboard plug on your soundcard. The daughterboard on your SB Live! on the other hand, is simply an extension of the board itself, to provide midi in and out connections.

Does that help?

WinXP : PIII 1.4GHz, 512MB RAM, 73GB SCSI HDD, Matrox Parhelia, SB Audigy 2.
Win98se : K6-3+ 500MHz, 256MB RAM, 80GB HDD, Matrox Millennium G400 MAX, Voodoo 2, SW1000XG.
DOS6.22 : Intel DX4, 64MB RAM, 1.6GB HDD, Diamond Stealth64 DRAM, GUS 1MB, SB16.

Reply 3 of 53, by Stull

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My advice: don't go down this path. Choose to live in ignorance of it all and you'll be able to die happy (and maintain your sanity)! 🤣

And now my blasphemous opinion: no matter how much money you invest in equipment and no matter how "good" you make MIDI instruments sound, you still just end up with a bunch of synthetic music that is a laughably far cry from anything that comes from real instruments.

Reply 5 of 53, by Jorpho

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Stull wrote:

And now my blasphemous opinion: no matter how much money you invest in equipment and no matter how "good" you make MIDI instruments sound, you still just end up with a bunch of synthetic music that is a laughably far cry from anything that comes from real instruments.

Yes, this!

I think it is important to keep what the original composers had in mind. If only some tiny fraction of the game-playing population had an exotic MIDI setup with all the bells and whistles, then a composer would probably not be writing game music with such a setup in mind, but rather work hard on making something that sounds good on a setup that everyone has. Sometimes adding fancy sampled instruments is not a step in the right direction. It's not like graphics where bumping up the resolution or framerate is usually desirable.

That said, the default instrument set on an SB Live is so completely different from everything that came before that something needs to be done.

Tek wrote:

But in my research I've just uncovered more questions. Some MIDI devices appear to be ISA cards, others seem to be rack-mounted sound modules, some are keyboards. I'm no closer to understanding what (if anything) I should buy to take advantage of this apparently superior method of enjoying MIDI music. It seems to me I'm entering a world as large and complex as PC building itself.

Is there a white paper I'm supposed to have read? Is there a simple method to explaining MIDI sound to somebody who has never read a word on the subject in his life?
Thanks in advance Vogonites.

As I understand it, all it really comes down to are the instrument samples. A MIDI music file contains instructions such as "play middle C using a piano and play B flat with an oboe". An old, not-very-good sound card will, upon receiving these instructions, play primitive beeps that might sound vaguely like a piano and an oboe if you use your imagination. A top-of-the-line sound card will produce sounds that are a much closer approximation of the real thing. Of course, different sound card manufacturers will use different samples of the instruments, and so a MIDI file won't necessarily sound exactly the same on all hardware. Later sound cards could let you arbitrarily load up different instrument sets, sometimes in the form of "soundfonts", from your hard drive.

The Roland MT-32 standard is very well-regarded for producing MIDI music and is supported by a wide variety of games, but ISA Roland cards can be preposterously expensive, which is why it is sometimes desirable to connect an external unit to a different sound card, which can then be instructed to send MIDI commands to the external unit rather than processing them internally. Some of the source ports of DOSBox include a patch that will emulate an MT-32 using the original MT-32 ROMs. Other sound cards sometimes advertise MT-32 compatibility, but I understand such claims are often exaggerated.

A MOD file, by the way, is basically a MIDI file that comes with its own instrument samples. Back in the day, Amiga computers were very efficient in playing MOD files, but often they required considerable processing power on a PC.

[Someone please feel free to correct me if I'm totally off-base here.]

Reply 6 of 53, by socram8888

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As a side note, the reason the Amiga could play .MOD more effectively than PCs is that its APU chip, the so-called Paula, could fetch samples directly from main memory (having virtually no speed penalty), and each of the four different PCM units can have a different sampling frequency, to increase or decrease the note of each sample. The CPU's only task is to load and start playing.

In SoundBlaster, there are only two PCMs, whose frequency are "hardwired", and therefore the tone variation has to be done in software, which is way slower.

If you want a good-sounding MIDI player, and you don't mind emulation, give a try to the Yamaha SYXG50.

Reply 7 of 53, by d1stortion

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Jorpho wrote:

I think it is important to keep what the original composers had in mind. If only some tiny fraction of the game-playing population had an exotic MIDI setup with all the bells and whistles, then a composer would probably not be writing game music with such a setup in mind, but rather work hard on making something that sounds good on a setup that everyone has. Sometimes adding fancy sampled instruments is not a step in the right direction. It's not like graphics where bumping up the resolution or framerate is usually desirable.

As a matter of fact certain composers did use Roland hardware for their work (this is for example documented in a Computer Chronicles episode that I'm too lazy to seek out now), and each and every single Windows user with installed DirectX 5 or 6+ has access to these "fancy sampled instruments"...

Reply 8 of 53, by Jorpho

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d1stortion wrote:

As a matter of fact certain composers did use Roland hardware for their work (this is for example documented in a Computer Chronicles episode that I'm too lazy to seek out now)

Yes, according to the MT-32 article, Sierra at least did in fact have composers working with the MT-32 in mind, probably because they were also selling them. Still, they seem like the exception.

d1stortion wrote:

and each and every single Windows user with installed DirectX 5 or 6+ has access to these "fancy sampled instruments"...

You mean in terms of a third-party software synth?

I seem to recall that I played plenty of DX5 and 6 games that by no means were using sampled instruments.

Reply 9 of 53, by d1stortion

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I wasn't talking about the MT-32 at all. I meant the SC-55, since the OP is talking about the General MIDI option in DOS games.

The default DLS file that the Microsoft GS Wavetable SW synth (which is even present on Windows 8) uses is probably nothing but a ROM dump of that unit; or rather the SC-50, to be precise, since IIRC it doesn't have MT-32 emulation. Of course without any effects and with more compressed samples, but undoubtedly still very much related in sound.

So to return to Stull's post again: undoubtedly modern soundfonts that try to be as realistic as possible can be questionable. But sample based synthesis itself? Many games had options for Roland Sound Canvas etc. and the hardware was even sold in consumer versions as daughterboards, so I don't get the point that it's supposed to be "not authentic" or whatever just because most people only had a Sound Blaster or compatible. Maybe what is authentic can depend on the individual itself too, but still it's a bit like saying that nowadays if you have a GTX Titan or any such crazy hardware you're not playing the games as intended by the devs...

Reply 10 of 53, by m1so

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Indeed d1stortion. Many people tend to underestimate the past because of what they had. Just because someone had a bad Packard Bell 486SX computer with a horrible SBPro clone card and "1000 W multimedia speakers" does not mean this was "state of the art" or even average back in the day. I guess my friends with shitty laptops will remember the 2010s as "Oh, those were the days! 2013! 15 fps in Assasins Creed, good time, but I won't go back". You'd be amazed at what "old" high end or even middle end hardware can do. We had a 386 until 2000, that does not mean it was the "386 era".

Jorpho wrote:

I seem to recall that I played plenty of DX5 and 6 games that by no means were using sampled instruments.

Obviously, since you didn't have the Microsoft GS Software synth on and had it turned to native FM synthesis instead.
MIDI always uses sampled instruments if you have a wavetable device, no matter if software or hardware. True MIDI is not "sampled" or "FM" it is just like HTML, it just tells the general instructions. It depends on the device if the "play trumpet type xx at major A" instruction will use a real trumpet sample or an Adlib approximation.

What is authentic also depends on the place and circumstances. Someone whose dad had a professional work PC that he let his son play on when he wasn't using it (I know a guy like that, he played games on a Pentium Pro as a kid and didn't even know just how powerful the machine was at the time) could have used an awesome PC, while many kids I knew only had Famiclones up to early 2000s.

Plus, computing is actually one of the cheaper hobbies that involves buying stuff. "Audiophiles" can pay up to 100 000 dollars for cables that sound just like the 20 dollar ones just because they "think it sounds better" cause of placebo effect. I'd argue a GTX Titan (present)/ Pentium Pro (past) are ridiculously cheap (and provide superb power compared to cheap stuff) compared to the hyperpriced crap some companies sell to audiophiles.

Reply 11 of 53, by d1stortion

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No, he's right in that games with MIDI support were scarce during Win9x times. I was just thinking that there has to be some way to get the MS synth to play in DOS games under Win9x, and what you would get then would be closer to what some composers used compared to other contemporary (and cheap) products, and for free of course.

Reply 12 of 53, by mr_bigmouth_502

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Stull wrote:

My advice: don't go down this path. Choose to live in ignorance of it all and you'll be able to die happy (and maintain your sanity)! 🤣

And now my blasphemous opinion: no matter how much money you invest in equipment and no matter how "good" you make MIDI instruments sound, you still just end up with a bunch of synthetic music that is a laughably far cry from anything that comes from real instruments.

Them's fightin' words. Have you ever listened to Jean Michel Jarre? Kraftwerk? Depeche Mode? Nine Inch Nails? Skinny Puppy? They have ALL made great music using synthesizers. It's not the instrument you use to make your music, but rather the music itself that determines if it's quality. 😉 Of course, musical taste is a really subjective thing.

That all being said, some games sound better with certain synths than others. Late 80s/early 90s games tend to favor the MT32, while mid-late 90s games tend to favor General MIDI compatible synth modules. As awesome as all those sound though, nothing screams "DOS gaming" to me more than the sound of an OPL3 chip. 😁

Reply 13 of 53, by Stull

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mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:

As awesome as all those sound though, nothing screams "DOS gaming" to me more than the sound of an OPL3 chip. 😁

Heh, I guess what I was getting at is he should just buy a $12 Labway card with OPL3, call it a day, and be happy with that. Personally I don't feel like DOOM (or whatever) is going to be more immersive if the instruments sound slightly better with a fancier setup. And I recognize that this is not a popular opinion around here. 😀

FM, on the other hand...ugh. I'd prefer no music over that.

Reply 15 of 53, by d1stortion

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buy a $12 Labway card with OPL3

FM, on the other hand...ugh. I'd prefer no music over that.

OPL3 synthesis _is_ FM synthesis. You prefer your games silent then? That's an exotic opinion, but why not 😀

Reply 17 of 53, by mr_bigmouth_502

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SB Live FM isn't FM. It's a poor sample-based approximation of FM.

Now this is FM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3AJE7eEDCw No samples were used here, it's all pure OPL3! 😁

Reply 18 of 53, by LunarG

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mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
Stull wrote:

My advice: don't go down this path. Choose to live in ignorance of it all and you'll be able to die happy (and maintain your sanity)! 🤣

And now my blasphemous opinion: no matter how much money you invest in equipment and no matter how "good" you make MIDI instruments sound, you still just end up with a bunch of synthetic music that is a laughably far cry from anything that comes from real instruments.

Them's fightin' words. Have you ever listened to Jean Michel Jarre? Kraftwerk? Depeche Mode? Nine Inch Nails? Skinny Puppy? They have ALL made great music using synthesizers. It's not the instrument you use to make your music, but rather the music itself that determines if it's quality. 😉 Of course, musical taste is a really subjective thing.

That all being said, some games sound better with certain synths than others. Late 80s/early 90s games tend to favor the MT32, while mid-late 90s games tend to favor General MIDI compatible synth modules. As awesome as all those sound though, nothing screams "DOS gaming" to me more than the sound of an OPL3 chip. 😁

Don't forget Vangelis' fantastic soundtrack from Blade Runner. One of the finest examples of synthesized music ever in my opinion.
When it comes to OPL3 music, I'd say the music in Tyrian is pretty kick-ass. It is definately not about the equipment you use, but about how you use it.
There have been a whole lot of bands that used "real" instruments that still sounded like shit.

WinXP : PIII 1.4GHz, 512MB RAM, 73GB SCSI HDD, Matrox Parhelia, SB Audigy 2.
Win98se : K6-3+ 500MHz, 256MB RAM, 80GB HDD, Matrox Millennium G400 MAX, Voodoo 2, SW1000XG.
DOS6.22 : Intel DX4, 64MB RAM, 1.6GB HDD, Diamond Stealth64 DRAM, GUS 1MB, SB16.

Reply 19 of 53, by keropi

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The truth for DOS (no matter how much people don't want to fully accept it) is that you need at least a SB with a real OPL chip, an MT-32ish device and a SC-55ish one. Only then you can be 90% sure you are getting the same or very close results to what the composers had in mind. Once you have the money/courage to go that way you won't go back. You can debate till next year about costs/exceptions but that won't change the fact that without said devices you are getting an inferior experience in the music sector. jm2c , it actually depends on personal preference whether you find music quality important or not.

Here is a VERY interesting read with recordings: http://crossfire-designs.de/index.php?lang=en … undcards&page=1

🎵 🎧 PCMIDI MPU , OrpheusII , Action Rewind , Megacard and 🎶GoldLib soundcard website